prophecy....

[atrib]

You use predestination as a defeater in every single bible debate.

Everything is inevitable and therefore pointless because nobody has free will.
God creates, foreknows and predetermines everything.
God creates evil. God punishes evil.

Moses is a sock puppet.
Pharaoh does what he's told to do even when he is not doing what he's told.

Not just Moses and Pharaoh and every human on the planet, God is a puppet in the hands of predestination too. Omniscience is a bitch.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Leonardo da Vinci knew the biblical flood was a hoax. It's evident in his paintings and stated in his writings.

 

[lpetrich]

Leonardo da Vinci knew the biblical flood was a hoax. It's evident in his paintings and stated in his writings.

How so? Please explain.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Leonardo da Vinci knew the biblical flood was a hoax. It's evident in his paintings and stated in his writings.

How so? Please explain.

https://www.leonardodavinci.net/facts.jsp

9. Leonardo argued that, according to the Biblical timetable, there would not have been sufficient time for the movement of rivers and sea levels to create the geological formations of the earth's surface. He suggested that, based upon his own observations of the movement of water and the features of mountains, the age of Earth was far greater than implied in the Bible. He attributed the presence of sea fossils on mountainsides to receding sea levels rather than the great flood described in the Bible.

 

[steve_bank]

Leonardo da Vinci knew the biblical flood was a hoax. It's evident in his paintings and stated in his writings.

How so? Please explain.

https://www.leonardodavinci.net/facts.jsp

9. Leonardo argued that, according to the Biblical timetable, there would not have been sufficient time for the movement of rivers and sea levels to create the geological formations of the earth's surface. He suggested that, based upon his own observations of the movement of water and the features of mountains, the age of Earth was far greater than implied in the Bible. He attributed the presence of sea fossils on mountainsides to receding sea levels rather than the great flood described in the Bible.

Ok, but do we have independent corporation it was actually written by Da Vinci?

 

[atrib]

The earth's surface being 71% water imo, shouldn't seem so difficult to think that a deluge in the past , could have been quite plausible / possible.

Earth has had water for billions of years, and water/ice is abundant in the solar system. There is no reason to believe that this water was delivered to Earth in the recent past, as in the past few thousand years.

The flood described in the Bible did not happen. There is no record of a global flood of anything like the description of the Bible in the Earth's geologic record, or in the genomes of living creatures.

The last major planet-wide extinction event occurred about 64 MYA when an asteroid struck the Earth. The asteroid was only a few miles wide, but it left a clear record in the geologic column all around the planet which can still be seen today. But a global flood just a few thousand years ago never left a trace? Impossible.

A global flood that killed all life on the planet except for a single mating pair of animals just a few thousand years ago would also have left an enormous imprint on the genomes of living things, which is conspicuously absent today. There is no evidence of such a bottleneck in any plant or animal alive today. It would also have been impossible to repopulate the Earth with all its flora and fauna from just a couple of individuals from each species. or to gather up all the animals into one place, and then return them to their place of origin after the flood.

The Egyptian and Chinese were building civilizations and erecting monuments to their kings and their gods at the time the flood apparently happened. But nobody ever noticed that their lands were covered by thousands of feet of water and these people went about their business as usual. Very strange indeed.

The Biblical flood never happened. Anyone with even a passing familiarity of history and science would find the story to be absurd, but apparently not you.

 

[atrib]

Uhm, not only is a world engulfing flood not plausible, it is clearly not possible due to many areas of scientific knowledge. Even disregarding the whole 'enough water' issue, which at least has the excuse of getting into more complex science, we have ice core records going back around 700,000 years; we have a continuum of tree ring chronology going back about 12,500 years; coral reefs can be shown to be hundreds of thousands of years old.

One pretty much has to pretend that vast areas of scientific knowledge were developed by people who are delusional, to make the Deluge work...or simple be ignorant oneself. C.S. Lewis had it right over half a century ago, the Deluge is fantasy.

There are quite a few factors to clear up, which are of course debateable. Sea fossils (whale bones and seashells) on mountains and building formations and old ruins still lay fathoms deep, under the sea. The ice itself wasn't there in places , as you mention of "ice core records" ,where plants for example , are found in ice cores.

Our planet consists of a molten core with a solid crust floating on top. The crust is not a single monolithic piece, but broken up into fragments (we call them continental plates). As these plates move around, the surface of the Earth changes - mountains are pushed up where these plates push together, seas and oceans are created where they drift apart. Material that was once at sea level or submerged in seas and oceans gets raised up as mountains; areas that were above ground become sea floors.

It is really depressing to hear someone repeating nonsense like this, in the 21st century when most people in the western world have access to a high school education and the internet. Really fucking depressing.

 

[atrib]

Bible skeptics assume that the average depth of the ocean, and average height of land above sea level, today is the same as it was at the time of the Noachian Flood.

They also assume that there was no gravitational or other causes of ocean swells which could have swamped mountains.

ETA - oh yeah, and they also assume there's no God and no supernatural intervention.

A black hole opened up next to Earth and caused a giant flood, but left the planet intact. Or that god has a really fat ass, and he caused a giant tsunami when he did a close-orbit flyby. Is that really what you are proposing?

Yes, sometimes mockery is the only argument against such nonsense.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I now invoke prophet Selohssa:
I, Selohssa, prophesy that twenty, fifty, one hundred years hence, this same debate will make itself heard in the land, with the same portents, declarations, and signs. But: Hearken not to the vain sciences of boastful men, for the age-old chronicle is true! So sayeth Selohssa, so believeth Selohssa.

 

[atrib]

You incorrectly claim the Flood didn't accomplish anything.

The Flood wasn't intended to take away man's ability to choose between good and evil.

What the Flood did do is show that God has the universal ability and intent to punish unrepentant evil. We have been warned. See? It's right there in the text..."behold, I will destroy them"

We were born broken because God designed us to be broken. And God kills us all for behaving the way he designed us to act.

What a monstrous argument. You couldn't make an argument like this unless you had the mentality of a slave, living in constant fear of being beaten or killed. Or you were a troll.

 

[ideologyhunter]

If the Flood was effective as a Divine Deterrence Plan, why is the rest of OT filled with prophets shrieking that the people of the book have lost their way, turned away from God, and deserve their fate as a conquered and oppressed people? Further, if God could be dismayed by his creations and then decide to drown them (making him, incidentally, the #1 abortionist of all time & space)...well, didn't he have knowledge of the future?

 

[ruby sparks]

There are quite a few factors to clear up, which are of course debateable.

Er, no. There aren't.

There was no global flood. It's daft. And there certainly was no god-ordained global or any other sort of flood. That's even dafter.

There was or were probably a natural flood or some floods, possibly some big ones, most likely not in Israel. 'Great Flood' stories pop up in several ancient accounts from other cultures, including in the region and before Genesis. The writers of Genesis were probably regurgitating borrowed older myths and superstitions.

If anyone believes the OT story they are being very, very silly indeed.

 

[ideologyhunter]

38% of my fellow citizens believe that Trump tells the truth and is 'the only one who can fix it.'
As a species, we have a ways to go in combatting delusions and instilling a respect for fact, logic, critical thinking strategies, and honest inquiry.

 

[atrib]

@ Learner

Do you understand why the story of the Biblical flood cannot be true? Do the reasons I have provided make sense to you? If you have doubts or questions feel free to post them here, and I will try to clear it up best I can.

 

[steve_bank]

https://biblehub.com/matthew/24-7.htm

Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. English Standard Version For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. Berean Study Bible

He says in verses 6-7, "And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places."

When have there not been wars, rumors of wars, nations against nations, pestilence-plagues, and earthquakes?

I, Steven The Prophets, prophesize that before the end of the world political party will war against political party. Families will be torn apart over politics. Liars and cheats will become political leaders. Politicians will be swallowed up in a geatt split in the Erath where they will spend eternity in the torment of Hell.

That and more shall pass before the second coming.....So sayeth the Lord in a vision.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I, prophet Selohssa, prophesy that a great orange being shall arise in the east. His hair will be as sheaves of golden flax and his hands of a mighty yet delicate aspect. Judgment shall tower up in his brow and thunder from his lips. He shall meet a warrior vixen, the Whore of Beer-Sheba-Rodham, and slay her on the field of battle. All shall bow to the Orange One, every knee bent and every head lowered. Sweet will be the fruits of obeisance to his will; dire the fate of those who resist him -- selah, for his gaze holds the just condemnation of the wicked. Know him. Learn his name. Worship him and only him. I met my Orange One in the midnight garden; his breath was sweet and the emanations of his mighty form were as sweet gusts of fragrance from the lotus. Those who know God, know the Orange One. The wicked, and those who exult in their own learning and stature shall be blind to him, and He to them. So sayeth Selohssa. So believeth Selohssa.

 

[steve_bank]

You could say the biblical prophets were activists of their day.

Taken in context of the times JC appears to be an educated person possibly familiar with Rome. He looked around and saw Israel was going to be destroyed if it stayed on the same course. He preaced the end of the world as he saw it.

Plenty of hyperbole added for popular emphases. Just like preachers of today do in arrracting followers.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

You could say the biblical prophets were activists of their day.

Taken in context of the times JC appears to be an educated person possibly familiar with Rome. He looked around and saw Israel was going to be destroyed if it stayed on the same course. He preaced the end of the world as he saw it.

Plenty of hyperbole added for popular emphases. Just like preachers of today do in arrracting followers.

Jesus was a conspiracy kook. Jesus is described an apocalyptic believer. That wasn't new. The earlier Book of Enoch was a blueprint for the apocalyptic ideas of that age, and of the character Jesus of the gospels. And a lot of other early apocalyptic literature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

There is little doubt that 1 Enoch was influential in molding New Testament doctrines about the Messiah, the Son of Man, the messianic kingdom, demonology, the resurrection, and eschatology.^[3]:10 The limits of the influence of 1 Enoch are discussed at length by R.H. Charles^[55] Ephraim Isaac,^[3] and G.W. Nickelsburg^[56] in their respective translations and commentaries. It is possible that the earlier sections of 1 Enoch had direct textual and content influence on many Biblical apocrypha, such as Jubilees, 2 Baruch, 2 Esdras, Apocalypse of Abraham and 2 Enoch, though even in these cases, the connection is typically more branches of a common trunk than direct development.^[57]

 

[Learner]

It is really depressing to hear someone repeating nonsense like this, in the 21st century when most people in the western world have access to a high school education and the internet. Really fucking depressing.

A discussion is a discussion , regardless of how odd you find it. To avoid being depressed, best avoid those "sensitive" to you discussions.

Anyway, its been busy at this end , may not have time to get into your post this very moment , but all the best .

 

[Learner]

There are quite a few factors to clear up, which are of course debateable.

Er, no. There aren't.

There was no global flood. It's daft. And there certainly was no god-ordained global or any other sort of flood. That's even dafter.

There was or were probably a natural flood or some floods, possibly some big ones, most likely not in Israel. 'Great Flood' stories pop up in several ancient accounts from other cultures, including in the region and before Genesis. The writers of Genesis were probably regurgitating borrowed older myths and superstitions.

If anyone believes the OT story they are being very, very silly indeed.

Natural floods or some local floods? Hmm but there were floods anyway ( Noah wasn't in Israel BTW ).