The Garden Of Eden

[steve_bank]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqyez-PXDiY

Just watched this on cable. A professor traded through the tales and mapped omto geography. One of the keys were satellite pictures that found the track of a river missing in the tale. A confluence of 4 rivers.

The ancient Jews clearly plagiarized and adapted existing myths.

The conclusion was that ancient traders carries tales back to Santeria of a paradise.
Turns out it is probable it was a real location. A river trading town in a lush area.

8000 years ago the Arabian peninsula was green. The myth evolved of the region being the birthplace of humans.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The garden was probably a literal garden and Adam a king. Garden's were places where their god dwelt, complete with cherubim statues at the entrance.

Here's a better account that follows what we have in the bible.

The Real Garden of Eden

 

[steve_bank]

I thought the video was sound reasoning. That being said, who knows.

 

[Lion IRC]

Since the Garden of Eden was a real place, nobody plagiarised anything.

 

[just_me]

Truth has always been subjective to those whose beliefs can't be proven objectively. Evidence is in the eye of the beholder, It is what you believe is what you call facts

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I thought the video was sound reasoning. That being said, who knows.

After watching the complete video it is obvious that the biblical garden story was plagiarized the same as much of the bible, particularly the early parts. the Babylonian/Sumerian similarities are evident. So obviously the Sumerian account came first, and the bible simply copied for its own purposes.

Interesting how he places the old kingdom in the Persian Gulf, which was dry land at the time and then flooded and destroyed when the ice age waned. It all makes sense and is quite believable, no faith needed, no Atlantis baloney.

I've never read Gilgamesh. Will have to do that.

I don't think Lion knows what it means to plagiarize. Happy believer.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't think Lion knows what it means to plagiarize. Happy believer.

Well, regardless of whether one agrees with him or not, he seems to understand quite well what plagiarism means. If he thinks it's real, it wouldn't have been plagiarized from anything.

It's like if someone thinks that Superman is a real guy. His reaction to plagiarism claims would be "No, Superman isn't a rip off of old Hercules myths. He's a flying dude who lives in Metropolis".

 

[Lion IRC]

Multiple cultures all reporting a deluge isn't plagiarism - it's corroboration.
And Gilgamesh does not pre-date Noah.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Multiple cultures all reporting a deluge isn't plagiarism - it's corroboration.
And Gilgamesh does not pre-date Noah.

To be fair, though, other cultures NOT reporting that deluge and continuing on blissfully unaware that their entire society had been drowned and killed is also corroboration that the deluge was more local than global.

 

[Lion IRC]

Dead men tell no tales.
All flood accounts and non-accounts come after the fact.
So we wouldn't expect there to be pre-flood cultures reporting that it never happened.

 

[steve_bank]

There are literary analysis methods that can place ancient writings into general time slots. The books of the Old Testamnet wee not all written in the time sequence of the stories. We cam see style and word usage change here in the last 200 years.

There is no doubt the Noah tale came after earlier cultural myths. Plagiarism may not be the best word. The current term may be cultural appropriation. Or simply cultural cross pollination. With trade and contact myths spread. The Jews needed a mythology as all cultures do.

Archeological evidence shows the ancient Jews in Israel were at most minor players in a tough neighbor hood. History embellished with tales of blowing down walls with a trumpet and so on.

Greek gods morphed into Roman gods.

 

[James Brown]

Multiple cultures all reporting a deluge isn't plagiarism - it's corroboration.
And Gilgamesh does not pre-date Noah.

What are the dates of Gilgamesh and Noah?

 

[just_me]

Does anyone know wither any of the story of creation is part of the Tora or whatever the Jewish version of the Bible is called and if so when it was chronicled?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Dead men tell no tales.
All flood accounts and non-accounts come after the fact.
So we wouldn't expect there to be pre-flood cultures reporting that it never happened.

Actually dead men tell plenty of tales. Go to any archaeology department and they'll tell you about this thing that exists which is called archaeology. When is it that you're claiming that all societies stopped and died and the area was abandoned for a long time and then completely unrelated societies all descended from this other guy who wasn't from there took over the area several centuries or millennia later?

 

[steve_bank]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible

The oldest Hebrew writings are maybe 600 BCE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myt

There is a comparison table.
https://www.icr.org/article/noah-flood-gilgamesh/

Around 2700 BCE 5r 5000 years ago.

To get the scope you have too look at a wall map of the region.

Present day Cairo and Tel Aviv are around 250 miles apart. The is North Africa, Persian, what we call Palestine. and the Arabian Peninsula. That was 'the world'. The idea of <oses wandering between Egypt and Plaestine for 40 years with 100s of thousands of people and being noticed is niot believable.

A 500 year storm in the region would seem to be a deluge of the world.

We also do not know colloquial use of words. A Jew who used to post here said the word 40 meant a while or a long time. Jesus went walkabout in the desert for 40 days. It rained for 4o days and nights.

By aligning references to landmarks Eden appears to have been a real community. Eden as a place of paradise is later Hebrew myth followed by Christians. In modern culture Eden means an imagines place of plenty and safety, a paradise..
Eden today is a colloquialism.

oday there is a New York Second. Am impossibly short lived time or experience. Literal translations miss a lot.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The oldest Hebrew writings are maybe 600 BCE.

That is correct. Sumerian culture and writing is far older. Even the word Eden is Sumerian.

Is Lion a flat-earther too?

 

[Lion IRC]

The oldest Hebrew writings are maybe 600 BCE.

That is correct. Sumerian culture and writing is far older. Even the word Eden is Sumerian.

Is Lion a flat-earther too?

The bible 600BC ? LOL

Solomon pre-dates Ptolemy
Samuel pre-dates Solomon
Moses pre-dates Samuel
Abraham pre-dates Moses
Job pre-dates Abraham.
...and the book of Job dates to Mesopotamian / Akkadian / Egyptian Middle Kingdom

Noah pre-dates everyone. So the claim that Noah is a 6th century BC plagiarism is simply false.

 

[James Brown]

And the publication of "Gone With The Wind" pre-dates World War I.

 

[DrZoidberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqyez-PXDiY

Just watched this on cable. A professor traded through the tales and mapped omto geography. One of the keys were satellite pictures that found the track of a river missing in the tale. A confluence of 4 rivers.

The ancient Jews clearly plagiarized and adapted existing myths.

The conclusion was that ancient traders carries tales back to Santeria of a paradise.
Turns out it is probable it was a real location. A river trading town in a lush area.

8000 years ago the Arabian peninsula was green. The myth evolved of the region being the birthplace of humans.

According to Babylonian religion the Garden of Eden was on the East bank of the Caspian sea. Which was their "the edge of the known world". I think it's pretty well established that the the entire biblical story of Adam and Eve was lifted right from Babylonian mythology (Enuma Elish) and plugged right into Judaism. They changed some minor details. But otherwise it's the same story.

So we know the location of the Garden of Eden already. We've known it for at least 4000 years.

 

[Lion IRC]

No.
The Enuma Elish and Genesis are too close in time to conclude which came first.