How is Ayn Rand Still a Thing?

[arkirk]

What she was exposed to was Leninism and Stalinism.

And this she labeled collectivism.

Well on at least some level Leninism and Stalinism are to collectivism what Objectivism and Libertarianism are to capitalism.

Leninism and Stalinism were what happened after a bloody revolution. I have always felt that the U.S. constantly engaged in economic warfare against the revolution...even the cold war was an economic battle. The Russians started with a deficit in terms of organization and much of what the U.S. did was to promote splinter groups. The U.S. has been doing this to regimes it disapproved of or that guarded their resources from foreign exploitation for longer than I have been alive.

We have had a defacto policy of opposition to any government that nationalizes its resources...Iraq, Iran, Libya, Venezuela,Cuba, etc. etc. The methods employed are dirty tricks. Our nation has never cared whether another nation is a dictatorship or not, so long as there was profit in that nation for our miners, drillers, and banana haulers. Modern Corporate American propaganda makes governing a country a difficult task. The climate of distrust made it difficult for legitimate people to do about anything in Russia, and paved the way for Lenin and Stalin. They pretended to be communists but really could get nothing together but a monolithic second rate national system of production...monopoly.

Putin acts very much the same way today. The actual conditions leveled at so called Communist or Socialist countries becomes a cause for nationalism due to outside pressures and men like Stalin or perhaps Donald Trump take over everything and handle it for "the people." Bullshit! They just make themselves into plain old dictators. They raise their army to defend against outsiders and use it on their own people if necessary to keep power.

This does not equate to communism as Marx would have had it or Socialism as George Bernard Shaw would have had it. I do not personally believe that there is any reason to assume that collectivism has a damned thing to do with either Stalin or Lenin, any more than Trump or perhaps the Koch brothers are examples of free market capitalism. They are all just a bunch of liars claiming to be what they are not.

 

[untermensche]

....We have had a defacto policy of opposition to any government that nationalizes its resources...Iraq, Iran, Libya, Venezuela,Cuba, etc. etc. The methods employed are dirty tricks....

The methods almost always involve attempts to undermine governments.

The problems in the Middle East directly flow from these policies.

Iran nationalizes the oil as any nation has the right to do. We end up with religious fundamentalists running Iran after the US gets involved.

Iraq doesn't nationalize the oil but Hussein decides he is going to control it his way. The invasion of Iraq then huge sectarian violence explodes and the mess we see today with ISIS. Again the rise of religious fundamentalism attributed to US interference.

Then we look at who the US supports. Totalitarian regimes like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Again huge reservoirs for religious fundamentalism.

We can see in action after action the US causing a rise in religious fundamentalism.

And of course the Americans blame the victims not themselves.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

 

[untermensche]

What people laugh at about Rand is her idealistic and romantic vision of capitalists in her novels.

They are not rational. They don't point out any truths.

They are romantic imaginary stories of people who have never existed and never will.

They are good escapism, but one has to come back to the real world eventually.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So ... you are saying that the problem with her fiction is that it has people in it who never existed and never will?

Isn't that why it is called "fiction"?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

But people treat it as if it is reality.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So ... you are saying that the problem with her fiction is that it has people in it who never existed and never will?

Isn't that why it is called "fiction"?

I think he's saying that the characters aren't believable. It's also why he boycotts Superman comics.

 

[untermensche]

So ... you are saying that the problem with her fiction is that it has people in it who never existed and never will?

Isn't that why it is called "fiction"?

Like I said, if people want to read for escapism that's fine, but there are no lessons or great truths to be found in those romantic fictional tales.

 

[ksen]

Rand may not have advocated the use of force to impose her ideas (I don't know if she did or didn't I'm just taking the illustrator's word for it in order to move the conversation along) but her books are full of the use of force by her heroes to get what they want.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So ... you are saying that the problem with her fiction is that it has people in it who never existed and never will?

Isn't that why it is called "fiction"?

I think he's saying that the characters aren't believable. It's also why he boycotts Superman comics.

Oh yes. Harry Potter as well.

 

[untermensche]

I think he's saying that the characters aren't believable. It's also why he boycotts Superman comics.

Oh yes. Harry Potter as well.

I agree, her stories are as believable as Superman and Harry Potter.

 

[untermensche]

I've heard Paul Ryan talk about all the great wisdom in Atlas Shrugged.

I actually liked the book. I saw it as total fantasy, but that was alright.

But what great wisdom is Ryan talking about?

The virtue of selfishness?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Paul Ryan is no Objectivist

This article compares positions taken by Ryan to the positions of Objectivism and finds Ryan wanting.

Here are some positions taken by the supposedly Objectivist Ryan.

He voted Yes on TARP.
He voted YES on Economic Stimulus HR 5140
He voted YES on $15billion bailout for GM and Chrysler
He voted YES on $192billion additional anti-recession stimulus spending
He voted YES on federalizing rules for drivers licenses to hinder terrorists
He voted YES on making the USAPATRIOT Act permanent
He voted YES on allowing electronic surveillance without a warrant
He voted YES on authorizing military force in Iraq
He voted YES on emergency $78Billion for war in Iraq and Afghanistan
He voted YES on declaring Iraq part of the War on Terror with no exit date
He voted NO on reducing US troops out of Iraq starting in 90 days
He voted YES on limited prescription drug benefit for Medicare recipients
He voted YES on providing $70million on Section 8 Housing vouchers
He voted YES on extending unemployment benefits to 59 weeks
He voted YES on No Child Left Behind
He voted YES on Head Start Act

 

[ksen]

But what great wisdom is Ryan talking about?

The virtue of selfishness?

yes, econ 101 "As everyone selfishly pursues their own self interests the best interests of society are served."

 

[untermensche]

Paul Ryan is no Objectivist

This article compares positions taken by Ryan to the positions of Objectivism and finds Ryan wanting.

I have no doubt he is not a true believer.

But what about the wisdom in the book?

This is a softball question that any supporter of Rand should knock out of the park in a couple of sentences off the top of their head.

- - - Updated - - -

But what great wisdom is Ryan talking about?

The virtue of selfishness?

yes, econ 101 "As everyone selfishly pursues their own self interests the best interests of society are served."

No, this is what is wrong with capitalism, not some great economic secret.

 

[prideandfall]

I've heard Paul Ryan talk about all the great wisdom in Atlas Shrugged.

I actually liked the book. I saw it as total fantasy, but that was alright.

But what great wisdom is Ryan talking about?

The virtue of selfishness?

totally subjective here and i'm inclined to state this is more what i got out of it than necessarily what she meant, but two things in atlas shrugged that actually had a pretty profound impact on my life:
1. thinking about money in terms of it being a physical representation of the value of my time - my whole life i've thought of dollars in terms of minutes, "X amount of money is worth Y amount of time" which i've found useful in terms of a reference guide to how much i value certain purchases, and has helped me save a lot of money over the years because i'd look at some knick-knack i was thinking of buying and go "okay, is this really worth 4 hours of my life?"

2. while rand herself took this concept and then drew a very horrid conclusion from it, i found the idea of what is basically "conscientious hedonism" very interesting

being rationally self interested doesn't preclude being charitable or generous, and rand's biggest flaw IMO was acting like it does.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Your question "what about the wisdom in the book" needs context. Are you asking if he finds wisdom in the book?

If he had read it and said "Gee, I want to grow up to be just like Wesley Mouch" one could theoretically say he found wisdom in the book.

 

[untermensche]

Your question "what about the wisdom in the book" needs context. Are you asking if he finds wisdom in the book?

If he had read it and said "Gee, I want to grow up to be just like Wesley Mouch" one could theoretically say he found wisdom in the book.

The question is to any supporter of Rand.

What is it so great we are supposed to take from Atlas Shrugged?

That we had better beware because those with the most money, power and privilege already, might rebel because they want more?

 

[untermensche]

I've heard Paul Ryan talk about all the great wisdom in Atlas Shrugged.

I actually liked the book. I saw it as total fantasy, but that was alright.

But what great wisdom is Ryan talking about?

The virtue of selfishness?

totally subjective here and i'm inclined to state this is more what i got out of it than necessarily what she meant, but two things in atlas shrugged that actually had a pretty profound impact on my life:
1. thinking about money in terms of it being a physical representation of the value of my time - my whole life i've thought of dollars in terms of minutes, "X amount of money is worth Y amount of time" which i've found useful in terms of a reference guide to how much i value certain purchases, and has helped me save a lot of money over the years because i'd look at some knick-knack i was thinking of buying and go "okay, is this really worth 4 hours of my life?"

2. while rand herself took this concept and then drew a very horrid conclusion from it, i found the idea of what is basically "conscientious hedonism" very interesting

being rationally self interested doesn't preclude being charitable or generous, and rand's biggest flaw IMO was acting like it does.

Being creatures as we are means we have to have a measure of self interest.

But we look at the comical picture of somebody like Donald Trump and see what it looks like when this self interest becomes pathological.

All things in proportion. Self interest in proportion to the interest the self deserves. No "self" is that incredible to deserve worship. Care about it sure, but not at the expense of caring about other "selves" just as valuable.

 

[ksen]

Your question "what about the wisdom in the book" needs context. Are you asking if he finds wisdom in the book?

If he had read it and said "Gee, I want to grow up to be just like Wesley Mouch" one could theoretically say he found wisdom in the book.

The question is to any supporter of Rand.

What is it so great we are supposed to take from Atlas Shrugged?

That we had better beware because those with the most money, power and privilege already, might rebel because they want more?

tbf to Jason he hasn't actually committed to saying there's anything great in Atlas Shrugged yet.