The Illusion of Self

[untermensche]

The guy is an MD.

He is not a Neuroscientist.

He has no credibility.

As a neurologist, I contend that consciousness is nothing more than the ability of our brain to acquire information (which is the state of being awake) AND all the content that the information contains AND the ability to get all that information into and out of memory.

He contends.

Worthless opinion.

He does not have the first clue what consciousness is.

Knowing you are seeing a rabbit is more than having information. It is a thing that knows it has information.

He is nothing but a neurologist and does not have one study to tell him what consciousness is.

Your continual hero worship of bad opinion is noted.

Ahem, from the article: ''Jacob Sage, M.D., is Professor of Neurology at Robert Wood Johnson Medical School. His latest book is Mind, Brain, and Consciousness.''

Your response was completely predictable.

You being unqualified in the field of neuroscience reject the work and analysis of a Professor of Neurology.

Your hero worship of people making empty claims is noted.

A neurologist knows nothing about consciousness.

No human has the slightest clue what it is.

And that neurologist is making stupid claims he can't support in any way. He is trying to make a buck peddling nonsense. The book, his ONLY book found at Amazon so of course his latest, is 11 years old. Neuroscience has advanced beyond his silly notions.

He should stick to neurology, something I know a lot about, I have read thousands and thousands of neurology consultations and then actually treated the people they could do nothing for, and stay away from fantasy.

Physical therapy is a modern applied science and it utilizes every significant finding from neuroscience that is practical and not merely speculative.

As a pharmacist I understand every drug a neurologist prescribes and what they are prescribing the drug for.

In the hospital mostly just aspirin and Plavix. They diagnose a stroke and then tell the therapists to help the patient regain function.

At one time scientists called Newton's claims about this "force" called gravity voodoo dualism.

Claiming the active mind is voodoo dualism is just more stupidity from an alleged scientist.

A mind that cannot act is a mind that is not needed. It would not exist.

If you have a stroke and want to walk again a neurologist spouting bullshit about the mind will never help you.

You need somebody that understands you must use your will with your active mind to force your brain to heal more productively, to utilize it's plasticity, to regain control.

 

[DBT]

Ahem, from the article: ''Jacob Sage, M.D., is Professor of Neurology at Robert Wood Johnson Medical School. His latest book is Mind, Brain, and Consciousness.''

Your response was completely predictable.

You being unqualified in the field of neuroscience reject the work and analysis of a Professor of Neurology.

Your hero worship of people making empty claims is noted.

A neurologist knows nothing about consciousness.

No human has the slightest clue what it is.

And that neurologist is making stupid claims he can't support in any way. He is trying to make a buck peddling nonsense. The book, his ONLY book found at Amazon so of course his latest, is 11 years old. Neuroscience has advanced beyond his silly notions.

He should stick to neurology, something I know a lot about, I have read thousands and thousands of neurology consultations and then actually treated the people they could do nothing for, and stay away from fantasy.

Physical therapy is a modern applied science and it utilizes every significant finding from neuroscience that is practical and not merely speculative.

As a pharmacist I understand every drug a neurologist prescribes and what they are prescribing the drug for.

In the hospital mostly just aspirin and Plavix. They diagnose a stroke and then tell the therapists to help the patient regain function.

At one time scientists called Newton's claims about this "force" called gravity voodoo dualism.

Claiming the active mind is voodoo dualism is just more stupidity from an alleged scientist.

A mind that cannot act is a mind that is not needed. It would not exist.

If you have a stroke and want to walk again a neurologist spouting bullshit about the mind will never help you.

You need somebody that understands you must use your will with your active mind to force your brain to heal more productively, to utilize it's plasticity, to regain control.

Hero worship? No, that is the rationale you use to cover the fact that you as someone unqualified in the field of Neurology dismiss the work and analysis of a Professor of Neurology.

I point this out because in previous posts you appeared to value qualifications....but now you don't.

I guess you value whatever suits your needs.

 

[untermensche]

Ahem, from the article: ''Jacob Sage, M.D., is Professor of Neurology at Robert Wood Johnson Medical School. His latest book is Mind, Brain, and Consciousness.''

Your response was completely predictable.

You being unqualified in the field of neuroscience reject the work and analysis of a Professor of Neurology.

Your hero worship of people making empty claims is noted.

A neurologist knows nothing about consciousness.

No human has the slightest clue what it is.

And that neurologist is making stupid claims he can't support in any way. He is trying to make a buck peddling nonsense. The book, his ONLY book found at Amazon so of course his latest, is 11 years old. Neuroscience has advanced beyond his silly notions.

He should stick to neurology, something I know a lot about, I have read thousands and thousands of neurology consultations and then actually treated the people they could do nothing for, and stay away from fantasy.

Physical therapy is a modern applied science and it utilizes every significant finding from neuroscience that is practical and not merely speculative.

As a pharmacist I understand every drug a neurologist prescribes and what they are prescribing the drug for.

In the hospital mostly just aspirin and Plavix. They diagnose a stroke and then tell the therapists to help the patient regain function.

At one time scientists called Newton's claims about this "force" called gravity voodoo dualism.

Claiming the active mind is voodoo dualism is just more stupidity from an alleged scientist.

A mind that cannot act is a mind that is not needed. It would not exist.

If you have a stroke and want to walk again a neurologist spouting bullshit about the mind will never help you.

You need somebody that understands you must use your will with your active mind to force your brain to heal more productively, to utilize it's plasticity, to regain control.

Hero worship? No, that is the rationale you use to cover the fact that you as someone unqualified in the field of Neurology dismiss the work and analysis of a Professor of Neurology.

I point this out because in previous posts you appeared to value qualifications....but now you don't.

I guess you value whatever suits your needs.

He is not talking about neurology.

There is no understanding of consciousness within the field of neurology.

There is no understanding of the phenomena of experience within any field.

 

[fromderinside]

DBT exposes Ego found, wanting.

 

[DBT]

He is not talking about neurology.

There is no understanding of consciousness within the field of neurology.

There is no understanding of the phenomena of experience within any field.

He is a Professor of Neurology in a University. You are not. He is qualified in his field. You as a pharmacist are not qualified in Neurology. You as someone who is not qualified in Neurology reject the work and analysis of someone who is highly qualified in Neurology. You acted like you value qualifications when that suited your needs, then presented a completely opposite position when it is shown that someone with qualifications goes against your beliefs.

Can you not see that your position is untenable?

 

[untermensche]

He is not talking about neurology.

There is no understanding of consciousness within the field of neurology.

There is no understanding of the phenomena of experience within any field.

He is a Professor of Neurology in a University. You are not. He is qualified in his field. You as a pharmacist are not qualified in Neurology. You as someone who is not qualified in Neurology reject the work and analysis of someone who is highly qualified in Neurology. You acted like you value qualifications when that suited your needs, then presented a completely opposite position when it is shown that someone with qualifications goes against your beliefs.

Can you not see that your position is untenable?

You don't know what neurology is.

You don't know what a neurologist does.

You don't know what a neurologist knows.

I have 30 years dealing with neurologists and their products and opinions.

I have more training in drugs than neurologists.

Your absolute ignorance of the real world makes you useless.

You don't seem to have ever worked a day in your life doing anything.

All you have is hero worship and naive acceptance of things you don't understand.

 

[Treedbear]

All hail untermensche! We are but swine before which you've cast pearls and are truly not worthy of being in your presence. Please save us from our ignorance.

 

[untermensche]

All hail untermensche! We are but swine before which you've cast pearls and are truly not worthy of being in your presence. Please save us from our ignorance.

A neurologist is not an expert on consciousness.

They are trained to diagnose disease and dysfunction.

They have no clue how the phenomena of experience arises.

And if somebody has a stroke a neurologist does not help them much. They diagnose the stroke and that's about it. Really the radiologist diagnoses it.

A physical and occupational therapist helps them much more and understands how to help a human regain functional movement better than any neurologist.

 

[DBT]

Oh, dear, dysfunction is a means of understanding mind and consciousness:

neurology
''The medical subspecialty dedicated to the study and management of non-surgical diseases of the brain and nervous system. See Pediatric neurology''

Introduction
''The brain is the most complex part of the human body. This three-pound organ is the seat of intelligence, interpreter of the senses, initiator of body movement, and controller of behavior. Lying in its bony shell and washed by protective fluid, the brain is the source of all the qualities that define our humanity. The brain is the crown jewel of the human body.

For centuries, scientists and philosophers have been fascinated by the brain, but until recently they viewed the brain as nearly incomprehensible. Now, however, the brain is beginning to relinquish its secrets. Scientists have learned more about the brain in the last 10 years than in all previous centuries because of the accelerating pace of research in neurological and behavioral science and the development of new research techniques. As a result, Congress named the 1990s the Decade of the Brain. At the forefront of research on the brain and other elements of the nervous system is the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS), which conducts and supports scientific studies in the United States and around the world.

This fact sheet is a basic introduction to the human brain. It may help you understand how the healthy brain works, how to keep it healthy, and what happens when the brain is diseased or dysfunctional.''

 

[untermensche]

Oh, dear, dysfunction is a means of understanding mind and consciousness:

Oh you mean like thirty years of working directly with patients with brain injuries of some kind working to help them regain functional use of their body?

 

[untermensche]

If you go to YouTube you will find dozens of theories about the phenomena of experience (consciousness) from PhD's, the people doing the research, from many different disciplines. Including physicists with ideas about how consciousness relates to quantum theory.

There is no scientific consensus.

Because we do not understand the phenomena of experience at all.

We experience ourselves as a self.

That cannot be denied.

 

[DBT]

Oh, dear, dysfunction is a means of understanding mind and consciousness:

Oh you mean like thirty years of working directly with patients with brain injuries of some kind working to help them regain functional use of their body?

I mean that by studying brain dysfunction, that tells us something about the role and function of various brain structures and regions.



perceptual processing
• Superior colliculus

Modulation of cognition
(memory, attention)
• Cingulate cortex
• Hippocampus
• Basal forebrain

Representation of
emotional response
• Somatosensory-relatedcortices

Representation of
perceived action
• Left frontal operculum
• Superior temporal gyrus

Motivational evaluation
• Amygdala
• Orbitofrontal cortex

Social reasoning
• Prefrontal cortext.

 

[DBT]

If you go to YouTube you will find dozens of theories about the phenomena of experience (consciousness) from PhD's, the people doing the research, from many different disciplines. Including physicists with ideas about how consciousness relates to quantum theory.

There is no scientific consensus.

Because we do not understand the phenomena of experience at all.

We experience ourselves as a self.

That cannot be denied.

What cannot be denied is that there is no evidence of a single instance of mind or consciousness without the workings of a functional brain. If the brain stops working, there is no mind or consciousness. The brain puts you to sleep at night and awakens you in the morning. You are the work of a brain.

 

[untermensche]

Oh, dear, dysfunction is a means of understanding mind and consciousness:

Oh you mean like thirty years of working directly with patients with brain injuries of some kind working to help them regain functional use of their body?

I mean that by studying brain dysfunction, that tells us something about the role and function of various brain structures and regions.



perceptual processing
• Superior colliculus

Modulation of cognition
(memory, attention)
• Cingulate cortex
• Hippocampus
• Basal forebrain

Representation of
emotional response
• Somatosensory-relatedcortices

Representation of
perceived action
• Left frontal operculum
• Superior temporal gyrus

Motivational evaluation
• Amygdala
• Orbitofrontal cortex

Social reasoning
• Prefrontal cortext.

Strokes can occur in any of those parts of the brain.

A person working with stroke patients learns a lot about what happens when the brain is damaged.

 

[untermensche]

If you go to YouTube you will find dozens of theories about the phenomena of experience (consciousness) from PhD's, the people doing the research, from many different disciplines. Including physicists with ideas about how consciousness relates to quantum theory.

There is no scientific consensus.

Because we do not understand the phenomena of experience at all.

We experience ourselves as a self.

That cannot be denied.

What cannot be denied is that there is no evidence of a single instance of mind or consciousness without the workings of a functional brain. If the brain stops working, there is no mind or consciousness. The brain puts you to sleep at night and awakens you in the morning. You are the work of a brain.

The only way you know about another person's consciousness is through subjective reports. You can't observe it.

And you only imagine a consciousness is making the report.

When the reports cannot be made you cannot know about the consciousness anymore.

It does not mean it is gone.

It just means you can't get a report.

Speculations about consciousness are all over the place.

Because we have no idea what it is.

 

[Treedbear]

...
We experience ourselves as a self.

That cannot be denied.

Tautology alert.

 

[untermensche]

...
We experience ourselves as a self.

That cannot be denied.

Tautology alert.

The nature in which we experience is not a tautology.

There could be experience without a sense of self.

 

[Treedbear]

...
We experience ourselves as a self.

That cannot be denied.

Tautology alert.

The nature in which we experience is not a tautology.

There could be experience without a sense of self.

I disagree with the premise that we could have conscious experience without reference to the Self. That is what consciousness is. The awareness of something with respect to the Self. Experience without reference to the Self is subconscious or unconscious awareness.

 

[DBT]

If you go to YouTube you will find dozens of theories about the phenomena of experience (consciousness) from PhD's, the people doing the research, from many different disciplines. Including physicists with ideas about how consciousness relates to quantum theory.

There is no scientific consensus.

Because we do not understand the phenomena of experience at all.

We experience ourselves as a self.

That cannot be denied.

What cannot be denied is that there is no evidence of a single instance of mind or consciousness without the workings of a functional brain. If the brain stops working, there is no mind or consciousness. The brain puts you to sleep at night and awakens you in the morning. You are the work of a brain.

The only way you know about another person's consciousness is through subjective reports. You can't observe it.

And you only imagine a consciousness is making the report.

When the reports cannot be made you cannot know about the consciousness anymore.

It does not mean it is gone.

It just means you can't get a report.

Speculations about consciousness are all over the place.

Because we have no idea what it is.

Anyone who is conscious is able describe their experience of being conscious. Their experience of being conscious is subjective but their description is objective. Their description can be recorded, and anyone can listen. They can, for instance, say 'I feel a pain in my leg' and a doctor can proceed to examine the leg in order to find the source of the felt pain.

 

[untermensche]

The nature in which we experience is not a tautology.

There could be experience without a sense of self.

I disagree with the premise that we could have conscious experience without reference to the Self. That is what consciousness is. The awareness of something with respect to the Self. Experience without reference to the Self is subconscious or unconscious awareness.

That is what OUR consciousness is.

But you could have a thing aware of a red apple but not aware of any memories or proclivities that make up a "self".

To be aware is not to be aware as a self.