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The root of Christianity

The bootstrapping argument as well. Proof by facts nit in evidence. You can not offer facts not in evidence as proof of facts not in evidence.

'Bootstrapping" as in pulling oneself up by one's own bootstraps.

I grew up watching Perry Mason....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(law)
If the independent evidence convinced the court that a conspiracy probably existed, only then such a statement could be introduced into trial and heard by the jury. Allowing such statements of conspiracy to prove the existence of conspiracy was considered similar to bootstrapping. In the United States, the bootstrapping rule has been eliminated from the Federal Rules of Evidence, as decided by the Supreme Court in the Bourjaily case.[1]

For example, if a person is charged with four crimes, unless the evidence is connectable to each crime, each piece of evidence can be used only in each separate crime and not to link any crime to another.

In law, bootstrapping can also refer to an attempt to gain jurisdiction over a non-jurisdictional matter by its circuitous relationship to a jurisdictional matter.

In 1987 the Supreme Court determined that the "bootstrapping" rule did not survive the adoption of the Federal Rules of Evidence.


https://philosophy.rutgers.edu/joomlatools-files/docman-files/BootstrappinginGeneral.pdf

Bootstrapping in General∗Jonathan WeisbergUniversity of Toronto1 IntroductionThe following procedure seems epistemically defective. Suppose I have no reasonto think the gas gauge in my car is reliable, and I attempt to establish its reliabilityas follows. I read the gauge on many occasions, concluding each time that the tankis as the gauge says. When the gauge reads ‘full’, I conclude that the tank is full,similarly for ‘empty’, etc. Eventually I conclude by induction that the gauge isreliable, since it was correct each time.Even if my beliefs in this chain of reasoning are all true, I have done nothing toestablish that the gauge is reliable: I do not know that it is reliable, nor am I justifiedin believing that it is. Call this sort of defective procedurebootstrapping.1Our focushere is: what is defective about this sort of reasoning, and what epistemologicallessons can we learn from its defectiveness?
 
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As Lumpy pointed out roots (plural) and root singular. In the same way, which you have overlooked: what evidence was there for the plural notion, which you coud have pointed out as flawed... even before Lumpy even posted?

Lumpy's claim that the events can be explained only by inferring the intervention of a supernatural creator from outside the universe is extraordinary. He provides no evidence to support this claim. Moreover, he makes a fallacious argument based on ignorance - "I can't think of any way the stories could have originated, therefore the stories must be true".

I can conceive of a large number of potential explanations as to how the stories originated, none of which involve supernatural action. People make up stories about gods all the fucking time, and we have tens of thousands of such stories from all over the world. A naturalistic explanation such as this, based on the fact that such stories are common, is more likely to be true than Lumpy's explanation involving supernatural intervention. Do you understand this ?

I'll take that as your personal opinion of Lumpy.

I've answered your questions.

The fuck you have. Read the last paragraph that is highlighted above. Do you understand why a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the Jesus miracle stories is vastly more credible than an explanation involving supernatural intervention? It goes to the core of the reason regarding why we should not accept such stories at face value. Please don't dodge the question, difficult though it may be to think about. Your personal integrity is far more valuable than your misplaced faith.

OK, dealing with just the last question for now, the simplest one not yet properly addressed, that should round it up from my previous post.

Answer: Yes I understand that (as you see it).
 
Really? He was just making a "proposition", and not claiming that the Jesus miracle stories are likely true? And you say this with a straight face. How long have you been on these forums, and how many times has Lumpy made this exact same claim? Several hundred times.

Propositions, I say with a straight face, was his suggestion to be considered (perhaps with a hint of sarcasm), i.e. because, the roots (plural) to Christianity, was being discussed by posters who was not considering, including or going by way of the title i.e. the root as in singular.'

Just by noting and reading the very first few words, on the first line in Lumpys post # 90, where he says, "I wonder if the title should really be.., etc." This to me implies 'a bringing forward' a suggestion.. proposals in the form of questions for this very topic and subject. AND.. even if you were to think these were nothing but his biased views on the matter - he's still making valid proposals for this particular discussion. Although it seems for some reason (perhaps you're not realising) - It's like you're saying in a courtroom, "technically," Lumpys still making claims anyway, regardless, when ("technically" from a history past)) he's actually not.

It does NOT matter what your discussions or debates that you've had in previous history was. There are NO claims in this particular post, regarding this topical subject of this discussion . What you're doing is: you're (plural) using a joker-card (for lack of a better term) i.e. the bringing up of history, again and again, auto-dismissing practically anything he posts, to which, I may add, and this also demonstrates, you've not actually refuted or addressed any of the individual points or questions he posted. I'm seeing from your end, blanket statements.


1. Lumpy has presented no evidence to support the claim that the Jesus stories are based on fact. Do you agree or disagree?

I agree.

Exactly. Lumpy has presented no evidence to support the fucking "proposition" because no such evidence exists. If Christians had evidence to support the Jesus miracle claims they wouldn't have to lie and dodge the fucking question all the time.

We're not going to come to an agreement on the context of Lumpy's questions, but I'll just mention again.. Lumpy presented proposals.

The definition in context I'm using here, I'll use from Colins dictionary:

A proposition is a statement or an idea which people can consider or discuss to decide whether it is true.


You highlighted his inquisitiveness and his suggestions to consider:

In case you missed it the first time, this is what Lumpy said:


If it's the singular "Root" that's the topic, how can this be anything other than the event which happened about 30 AD in the Galilee/Judea region,
How can "The Root of Christianity" not be that event, whatever one believes actually happened?

Is it possible to imagine that "Christianity" would have happened anyway, even if no such special event happened there at that time?

If he had gotten erased from history somehow, would Christianity have happened anyway, just the same, only with a few minor details changed?

He is begging the question using the argument from ignorance fallacy. This is the textbook definition of argument from ignorance. "What else could it be, other than the events actually being true"? These positive claims are often framed in the form of questions, hence the term "begging the question".

From Wiki:
In classical rhetoric and logic, begging the question or assuming the conclusion (Latin: petitio principii) is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

For example, the statement "Green is the best color because it is the greenest of all colors" claims that the color green is the best because it is the greenest—which it presupposes is the best.
It is a type of circular reasoning: an argument that requires that the desired conclusion be true. This often occurs in an indirect way such that the fallacy's presence is hidden, or at least not easily apparent.[1]

It is the same fucking fallacious argument. Shame on you for pretending that it isn't.

Bringing up definitions (misplaced arguments) doesn't hide your error(s).

Just because he posits questions, which were rght on topic - why in your mind are you thinking those 'WHAT IF' questions are (defensive) "begging the question" questions?

He did not pose a single question following up with "therefore this is true!" He ask the reader to consider the points, or the questions he brought up!


(I've only responded to part of your post, I sort of have 'long-post, mutli-quote' dyslexia.)
 
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Propositions, I say with a straight face, was his suggestion to be considered (perhaps with a hint of sarcasm), i.e. because, the roots (plural) to Christianity, was being discussed by posters who was not considering, including or going by way of the title i.e. the root as in singular.'

Just by noting and reading the very first few words, on the first line in Lumpys post # 90, where he says, "I wonder if the title should really be.., etc." This to me implies 'a bringing forward' a suggestion.. proposals in the form of questions for this very topic and subject. AND.. even if you were to think these were nothing but his biased views on the matter - he's still making valid proposals for this particular discussion. Although it seems for some reason, perhaps you're not realising... It's like you're saying in a courtroom, "technically," Lumpys making claims anyway, regardless, when ("technically" from a history past)) he's actually not.
I think that if Lumpy was merely pointing out that the title should really be 'roots of' verses 'root of', then it would be a minor point on the thread topic in general, and would be largely correct that Christianity has a plurality of roots.

He does go on to suggest that if there is any singular root, it is this Jesus guy and his magic show and resurrection. I'd disagree that this would be THE singular root, as Lumpy is ignoring what would Jesus be without Yahweh and the Jewish history. Are you ready to get on board with that? Are you ok with Jesus being the son of Quetzalcoatl? One would have something else, what ever it would end up being called. So just maybe the plurality of roots is the place to stay...
 
I think that if Lumpy was merely pointing out that the title should really be 'roots of' verses 'root of', then it would be a minor point on the thread topic in general, and would be largely correct that Christianity has a plurality of roots.

If it is a point of discussion (not the sole point) then there is a focus talking point, which in this case, is one half of the relative root v roots topic matter,


He does go on to suggest that if there is any singular root, it is this Jesus guy and his magic show and resurrection. I'd disagree that this would be THE singular root, as Lumpy is ignoring what would Jesus be without Yahweh and the Jewish history. Are you ready to get on board with that? Are you ok with Jesus being the son of Quetzalcoatl? One would have something else, what ever it would end up being called. So just maybe the plurality of roots is the place to stay...

That what it's all about. You are giving us a hint of some of the things why you doubt the singular root. We can happily be in disagreement during a coversation!

Well there's only so much you can put in, and a limited amount you can get from a post of a particular size to summarize how a person'is supposedly 'ignoring' one aspect from many other aspects. You sort of mean a much biigger post, with much wider subject areas e.g. names of charachters and more characters would be the preferred requirement. Perhaps its simply because some of those other areas not mentioned from across the board... just haven't come up YET in the conversation.
 
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I think that if Lumpy was merely pointing out that the title should really be 'roots of' verses 'root of', then it would be a minor point on the thread topic in general, and would be largely correct that Christianity has a plurality of roots.

If it is a point of discussion (not the sole point) then there is a focus talking point, which in this case, is one half of the relative root v roots topic matter,
I'd say the focus point of this thread is Dr. Z's take away(s) from the linked Podcast series, and follow on discussions. Lumpy quibbled about the thread title, and then jumped down his rabbit hole...

He does go on to suggest that if there is any singular root, it is this Jesus guy and his magic show and resurrection. I'd disagree that this would be THE singular root, as Lumpy is ignoring what would Jesus be without Yahweh and the Jewish history. Are you ready to get on board with that? Are you ok with Jesus being the son of Quetzalcoatl? One would have something else, what ever it would end up being called. So just maybe the plurality of roots is the place to stay...

That what it's all about. You are giving us a hint of some of the things why you doubt the singular root. We can happily be in disagreement during a coversation!

Well there's only so much you can put in, and a limited amount you can get from a post of a particular size to summarize how a person'is supposedly 'ignoring' one aspect from many other aspects. You sort of mean a much biigger post, with much wider subject areas e.g. names of charachters and more characters would be the preferred requirement. Perhaps its simply because some of those other areas not mentioned from across the board... just haven't come up YET in the conversation.
Sure, no problem with friendly disagreements. As to the rest...not really sure what you are getting at...
 
I'd say the focus point of this thread is Dr. Z's take away(s) from the linked Podcast series, and follow on discussions. Lumpy quibbled about the thread title, and then jumped down his rabbit hole...

Regardless what ever you see in the "podcast,"... but lets not be disengenious and dishonest about it... was sort of my response and view on it. Intergrity... as Atrib calls it.

He does go on to suggest that if there is any singular root, it is this Jesus guy and his magic show and resurrection. I'd disagree that this would be THE singular root, as Lumpy is ignoring what would Jesus be without Yahweh and the Jewish history. Are you ready to get on board with that? Are you ok with Jesus being the son of Quetzalcoatl? One would have something else, what ever it would end up being called. So just maybe the plurality of roots is the place to stay...

Well there's only so much you can put in, and a limited amount you can get from a post of a particular size to summarize how a person'is supposedly 'ignoring' one aspect from many other aspects. You sort of mean a much biigger post, with much wider subject areas e.g. names of charachters and more characters would be the preferred requirement. Perhaps its simply because some of those other areas not mentioned from across the board... just haven't come up YET in the conversation.

Sure, no problem with friendly disagreements. As to the rest...not really sure what you are getting at...

I think I should have asked you that first. I assumed your post in the top part of the above quote, was referring from Lumpy's post #90, because that would be quite a sumarization from just that one post.
 
Lumpy's claim that the events can be explained only by inferring the intervention of a supernatural creator from outside the universe is extraordinary. He provides no evidence to support this claim. Moreover, he makes a fallacious argument based on ignorance - "I can't think of any way the stories could have originated, therefore the stories must be true".

I can conceive of a large number of potential explanations as to how the stories originated, none of which involve supernatural action. People make up stories about gods all the fucking time, and we have tens of thousands of such stories from all over the world. A naturalistic explanation such as this, based on the fact that such stories are common, is more likely to be true than Lumpy's explanation involving supernatural intervention. Do you understand this ?

I'll take that as your personal opinion of Lumpy.

I've answered your questions.

The fuck you have. Read the last paragraph that is highlighted above. Do you understand why a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the Jesus miracle stories is vastly more credible than an explanation involving supernatural intervention? It goes to the core of the reason regarding why we should not accept such stories at face value. Please don't dodge the question, difficult though it may be to think about. Your personal integrity is far more valuable than your misplaced faith.

OK, dealing with just the last question for now, the simplest one not yet properly addressed, that should round it up from my previous post.

Answer: Yes I understand that (as you see it).

Thank you. Most Christians on these forums and in real life would never acknowledge this fact in public. They keep insisting their beliefs are based on evidence, not faith, and as you acknowledge, it is not reasonable to believe in supernatural intervention over naturalistic explanations. Lumpy has been unable to acknowledge this simple fact in multiple threads going back four or more years on these forums.
 
We're not going to come to an agreement on the context of Lumpy's questions, but I'll just mention again.. Lumpy presented proposals.

The definition in context I'm using here, I'll use from Colins dictionary:

A proposition is a statement or an idea which people can consider or discuss to decide whether it is true.

You are wrong, and I am sorry I have not been able to do a better job of helping you understand my point.

A proposition would typically be worded as this:
The origin of the Jesus myths may be based on actual, real life events concerning an actual person performing miracles.

Lumpy did not phrase it like this. His statements leave no room for alternate explanations for the origins of the Jesus myths. He explicitly phrased it like this:
How could the stories be based on anything other the actual events happening as described?

Lumpy is telling us that he can think of no other explanation other than the events actually happening. This is how claims from ignorance are worded - it is the perfect example for such a claim. And he has made this exact same claim many, many times in the past.

I am not trying to use "lawyer speak" to try to cover a bad argument, as you have suggested. I am using plain English and referencing the sources that support my statements. I am sorry that you don't understand how logical arguments work, and the nature of fallacies, but I have posted definitions and links in my posts, so that is not my fault. Your ignorance is self-imposed.
 
Regardless what ever you see in the "podcast,"... but lets not be disengenious and dishonest about it... was sort of my response and view on it. Intergrity... as Atrib calls it.

He does go on to suggest that if there is any singular root, it is this Jesus guy and his magic show and resurrection. I'd disagree that this would be THE singular root, as Lumpy is ignoring what would Jesus be without Yahweh and the Jewish history. Are you ready to get on board with that? Are you ok with Jesus being the son of Quetzalcoatl? One would have something else, what ever it would end up being called. So just maybe the plurality of roots is the place to stay...

Well there's only so much you can put in, and a limited amount you can get from a post of a particular size to summarize how a person'is supposedly 'ignoring' one aspect from many other aspects. You sort of mean a much biigger post, with much wider subject areas e.g. names of charachters and more characters would be the preferred requirement. Perhaps its simply because some of those other areas not mentioned from across the board... just haven't come up YET in the conversation.

Sure, no problem with friendly disagreements. As to the rest...not really sure what you are getting at...

I think I should have asked you that first. I assumed your post in the top part of the above quote, was referring from Lumpy's post #90, because that would be quite a sumarization from just that one post.

Looking back, I guess I should have quoted you originally from your post #91, citing Lumpy's post. I wasn't even trying to join your back and forth with atrib (partly as I haven't/hadn't spent the time to wade thru it). The flicker of the back and forth new post updates between you and atrib, caused me to take a peek, that's all...
 
Answer: Yes I understand that (as you see it).

Thank you. Most Christians on these forums and in real life would never acknowledge this fact in public. They keep insisting their beliefs are based on evidence, not faith, and as you acknowledge, it is not reasonable to believe in supernatural intervention over naturalistic explanations. Lumpy has been unable to acknowledge this simple fact in multiple threads going back four or more years on these forums.

I should have emphasized that 'I understand your point of view, and where you're coming from,' although I couldn't agree with it, obviously because I am believer too.
 
We're not going to come to an agreement on the context of Lumpy's questions, but I'll just mention again.. Lumpy presented proposals.

The definition in context I'm using here, I'll use from Colins dictionary:

A proposition is a statement or an idea which people can consider or discuss to decide whether it is true.

You are wrong, and I am sorry I have not been able to do a better job of helping you understand my point.


A proposition would typically be worded as this:
The origin of the Jesus myths may be based on actual, real life events concerning an actual person performing miracles.

Yes that is a proposition too.

Lumpy did not phrase it like this. His statements leave no room for alternate explanations for the origins of the Jesus myths. He explicitly phrased it like this:
How could the stories be based on anything other the actual events happening as described?

Lumpy is telling us that he can think of no other explanation other than the events actually happening. This is how claims from ignorance are worded - it is the perfect example for such a claim. And he has made this exact same claim many, many times in the past.

Ok, you could see it that way however...

The plural explanation was already stated and provided by the other posters in their previous posts before lumpy posted his! Lumpy gave his alternative for consideration - since there IS only room for two options. Lumpy gave the second option, the singular root.

I am not trying to use "lawyer speak" to try to cover a bad argument, as you have suggested. I am using plain English and referencing the sources that support my statements. I am sorry that you don't understand how logical arguments work, and the nature of fallacies, but I have posted definitions and links in my posts, so that is not my fault. Your ignorance is self-imposed.

Fair enough pov, I am limited to simple basic logic.
 
Answer: Yes I understand that (as you see it).

Thank you. Most Christians on these forums and in real life would never acknowledge this fact in public. They keep insisting their beliefs are based on evidence, not faith, and as you acknowledge, it is not reasonable to believe in supernatural intervention over naturalistic explanations. Lumpy has been unable to acknowledge this simple fact in multiple threads going back four or more years on these forums.

I should have emphasized that 'I understand your point of view, and where you're coming from,' although I couldn't agree with it, obviously because I am believer too.

My argument has nothing to do with belief or lack of belief in gods; it stands on its own merits. Which part do you disagree with? We have tens of thousands of examples of humans making up stories about gods, and we have zero examples of such stories being based on actual events in which a supernatural entity has intervened in our world. In fact, for every single fact we have discovered about the universe, and can speak to with any degree of confidence, the answer has never been "it was caused by a supernatural entity". Not once! Therefore, it would be vastly more probable that the Jesus miracle stories are based on naturalistic origins. Which part of my argument is flawed?

You cast aside reason because you have been indoctrinated into believing whatever you believe about gods. And the indoctrination is so strong that you cannot even bring yourself to accept any sound logical arguments that demonstrate your beliefs to be unreasonable. You would never apply the same standard of "unreason" to anything else in your life; you would never accept that the missing cookies were taken by an invisible flying zombie despite what your 5-year old might have told you. But when it comes to your religious beliefs, you become immune to facts and logic. As you said, "obviously because I am believer too". Religion turns honest men into liars.

By the way, accepting the proposition does not make divine intervention impossible, just highly unlikely. Accepting the proposition would not logically require you to stop believing in your god, just in case you didn't understand that.
 
Yes that is a proposition too.

Lumpy did not phrase it like this. His statements leave no room for alternate explanations for the origins of the Jesus myths. He explicitly phrased it like this:
How could the stories be based on anything other the actual events happening as described?

Lumpy is telling us that he can think of no other explanation other than the events actually happening. This is how claims from ignorance are worded - it is the perfect example for such a claim. And he has made this exact same claim many, many times in the past.

Ok, you could see it that way however...

The plural explanation was already stated and provided by the other posters in their previous posts before lumpy posted his! Lumpy gave his alternative for consideration - since there IS only room for two options. Lumpy gave the second option, the singular root.

I am not trying to use "lawyer speak" to try to cover a bad argument, as you have suggested. I am using plain English and referencing the sources that support my statements. I am sorry that you don't understand how logical arguments work, and the nature of fallacies, but I have posted definitions and links in my posts, so that is not my fault. Your ignorance is self-imposed.

Fair enough pov, I am limited to simple basic logic.

You have been on these forums for a long time, and you have not learned a thing along the way. Lumpy made a flawed argument for his god. You endorsed the argument. When it was pointed out why the argument is flawed (by Keith&Co and me), you doubled down on your position. You know how you can get back at atheists who make you look foolish on the internet? You can stop saying and repeating foolish things. Rather than getting butt-hurt and trying to defend an indefensible position, educate yourself, learn the subject matter and arm yourself. You will be far more effective in defending your faith if you do that.
 
I should have emphasized that 'I understand your point of view, and where you're coming from,' although I couldn't agree with it, obviously because I am believer too.

My argument has nothing to do with belief or lack of belief in gods; it stands on its own merits. Which part do you disagree with? We have tens of thousands of examples of humans making up stories about gods, and we have zero examples of such stories being based on actual events in which a supernatural entity has intervened in our world. In fact, for every single fact we have discovered about the universe, and can speak to with any degree of confidence, the answer has never been "it was caused by a supernatural entity". Not once! Therefore, it would be vastly more probable that the Jesus miracle stories are based on naturalistic origins. Which part of my argument is flawed?

It seemed to me as if you were asking if I understood your position... or what you were saying. Which I understood.

Well I'm not so sure of the ten 'thousand story examples' thought method. As this particular thought-line imo, suggests you have a flaw for conclusions, i.e. taking from the various examples - when they are being their own indivdual belief systems. And... despite the individual differences between the theologies, ideologies or doctrines. Between them somehow, you've deduced that they can be representative of each other e.g. identically, like for like, All ten thousand being "one and the same," and so therefore the conclusion, in a manner of speaking: "Either they ALL have God of the bible, or, 'non' of them do."

Understandable when you challenge theists to prove or demonstrate the supernatural through some repeatable scientific method - which is rightly so, if the religious individual claims this and claiming the science is showing this. However, when you ask theists who don't make the claim (by any scientific method), who alternatively believes simply by faith, inference or... having had their own personal experience etc., there may be a problem....

because the person asking for evidence or demonstration, whilst knowing the believer can't demonstrate or repeat the experience (usually a one off) through any scientific method. This then is where the tactical, disengenous 'technicality lawyer speak" may come in, knowing the demostration method's unattainable, whilst still insisting for evidence, which can be done even when speaking clear English.


You cast aside reason because you have been indoctrinated into believing whatever you believe about gods. And the indoctrination is so strong that you cannot even bring yourself to accept any sound logical arguments that demonstrate your beliefs to be unreasonable. You would never apply the same standard of "unreason" to anything else in your life; you would never accept that the missing cookies were taken by an invisible flying zombie despite what your 5-year old might have told you. But when it comes to your religious beliefs, you become immune to facts and logic. As you said, "obviously because I am believer too". Religion turns honest men into liars.

Have you ever reasoned the obvious, why there are no scholars (sectarian or theist), or places of worship today, for santa, doctrines for the missing cookies, and flying zombies? I think theres a level of seriousness for these learned people to spend their time and effort on.

Either way, depending on the person - religion can turn Liars into Honest men. Having said that... You don't have to be religious to be a liar.

By the way, accepting the proposition does not make divine intervention impossible, just highly unlikely. Accepting the proposition would not logically require you to stop believing in your god, just in case you didn't understand that.

Your wisdom noted.
 
You have been on these forums for a long time, and you have not learned a thing along the way. Lumpy made a flawed argument for his god. You endorsed the argument. When it was pointed out why the argument is flawed (by Keith&Co and me), you doubled down on your position.

Personally I thought you both were arguing more about the history you've had with Lumpy. Memories.


You know how you can get back at atheists who make you look foolish on the internet? You can stop saying and repeating foolish things. Rather than getting butt-hurt and trying to defend an indefensible position, educate yourself, learn the subject matter and arm yourself. You will be far more effective in defending your faith if you do that.

Ok, noted.
 
I wonder if the title should really be The Roots of Christianity (plural), rather than Root (singular)....

If it's the singular "Root" that's the topic, how can this be anything other than the event which happened about 30 AD in the Galilee/Judea region, where a person showed up who is said to have done miracles and rose back to life after he was killed?

How can "The Root of Christianity" not be that event, whatever one believes actually happened? What it is that happened there, at that time and place, causing those claims to be made and then leading to the new Christ cult(s) and the writings they produced -- that happening has to be the "Root" of the later Christianity, does it not?

Is it possible to imagine that "Christianity" would have happened anyway, even if no such special event happened there at that time? What if the historical Jesus person, instead of doing whatever he did, had gotten detracted, or suppose he had an accident and got killed, or otherwise never showed up there, or anywhere else, to do whatever he did.

If he had gotten erased from history somehow, would Christianity have happened anyway, just the same, only with a few minor details changed? Would another Messiah narrative have emerged instead, in place of this one, with someone else thrust into the Messiah role to serve as the savior which was predetermined to pop up somewhere anyway? complete with miracles and Resurrection narrative essentially the same but with only a few differences in detail?

You pose very interesting questions for which I don't have answers. However I challenge the apparent claim about the historicity of the Resurrection. That "event" was key to the eventual rise of Christianity, but it probably wasn't historic at all, and seems not to have been key to the earliest christian (small-'c') church in Judaea.

It was St. Paul the Evangelist — who never met the living Jesus and had little interest in his teachings — who founded the Christian (large-'C') religion. And the idea that Jesus was God wasn't agreed until the 4th-century Council of Nicaea, with Emperor Constantine the Great banishing those Bishops who disagreed.

The earliest writings about Jesus — the Gospel of Mark and the hypothetical Q source — barely mention any Resurrection. The post-Crucifixion appearances of Jesus in the final 12 verses of Mark are thought to be late additions. An empty tomb story got embellished with fictions.

This article in The Atlantic discusses the Q source, and therefore the earliest non-Pauline christian religion.
the authors of Q did not view Jesus as "the Christ" (that is, as "the anointed one," the promised Messiah), or as the redeemer who had atoned for their sins by his crucifixion, or as the son of God who rose from the dead. Instead, they say, Q's authors esteemed Jesus as simply a roving sage who preached a life of possessionless wandering and full acceptance of one's fellow human beings, no matter how disreputable or marginal. In that respect, they say, he was a Jesus for the America of the third millennium, a Jesus with little supernatural baggage but much respect for cultural diversity.
 
I wonder if the title should really be The Roots of Christianity (plural), rather than Root (singular).

"Roots" could be virtually anything in the earlier culture, and all of it sloshed together sort of evolves into the later Christianity phenomenon.

Sure. But things can be more or less relevant. The guy in the podcast didn't say this was the single more important thing. That was more my interpretation. I'm well aware of the weakness of that argument.

And you could give special emphasis to this or that particular "root" from the earlier time, saying one is more important than another, but it's all pretty subjective. You can easily dig up reasons why this "root" had more significance than that one.

But if "Root" is the topic, singular -- meaning The ONE singular element back there which by itself caused the Christianity thing to happen, and without which there'd be no Christianity --- then that's a much different topic.

If it's the singular "Root" that's the topic, how can this be anything other than the event which happened about 30 AD in the Galilee/Judea region, where a person showed up who is said to have done miracles and rose back to life after he was killed?

How can "The Root of Christianity" not be that event, whatever one believes actually happened? What it is that happened there, at that time and place, causing those claims to be made and then leading to the new Christ cult(s) and the writings they produced -- that happening has to be the "Root" of the later Christianity, does it not?

I don't think it can be. That's not how movements survive. It's zeitgeist. An idea already exists but hasn't been succinctly formulated. Then somebody says it, and everybody goes "aha", and that guy acts as a clarifying lens. All the ideas that became Christianity already existed prior to Jesus. Other people had done the hard work. Jesus was more a focal point for these ideas, rather than the source. If he'd been the source he'd be forgotten in history and some dude a thousand year later would be the symbol of Christianity.

We know some of the people who first formulated some of the ideas that made it into Christianity. But most of it we have no idea about. For example, the immortal soul idea, "ba" comes from ancient Egyptian theology. That seems to be settled by scholars. But way more complicated. We have no idea who first thought of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_conception_of_the_soul

Egyptian religious ideas also led to the other Mediterranean monotheism, Zoroastrianism.
Maat = Ahura Mazda.
Angra Mainyu = Isfet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat

And then Ahura Mazda made it into Judaism as angels, and Angra Mainyu as Satan. Who came up with this is also lost in pre-history.

It's just one big soup.

My point is that Jesus couldn't have said anything that people didn't already believe, or nobody would have cared about what he said. Jesus isn't the start of Christianity. He's more like the end of pre-pharisaic Judaism.

Is it possible to imagine that "Christianity" would have happened anyway, even if no such special event happened there at that time? What if the historical Jesus person, instead of doing whatever he did, had gotten detracted, or suppose he had an accident and got killed, or otherwise never showed up there, or anywhere else, to do whatever he did.

If he had gotten erased from history somehow, would Christianity have happened anyway, just the same, only with a few minor details changed? Would another Messiah narrative have emerged instead, in place of this one, with someone else thrust into the Messiah role to serve as the savior which was predetermined to pop up somewhere anyway? complete with miracles and Resurrection narrative essentially the same but with only a few differences in detail?

I think Jesus is largely irrelevant for Christianity. We see this no matter what we study in the world. The figurehead at the top of any movement did all the right things, but if he hadn't come along at just the right moment in history nothing would have happened. If it hadn't been for the French Revolution, no way could Napoleon have grabbed power. But somebody most likely would. The Directory leading France was a dysfunctional corrupt mess. France was politically unstable. The people longed for and desperately needed stability. If it hadn't been Napoleon it had been someone else.

The analogue for Christianity is Paul. He shaped it, more than anyone, into what it later became. But he couldn't have done it without Jesus. Pre-pharisaic Judaism was a geographically localized highly tribal exclusive religion that wasn't well adapted to an increasingly cosmopolitan and inclusive world. If your belief system isn't an aid in your life it has to go. And that was increasingly how the Jews felt. Jesus came along and said it, and the whole thing collapsed.

FYI. A Jew who believes in the afterlife and the existence of an immortal soul believes in a modern form of Judaism that came into existence about BC 100. That's when the ideas first entered into Judaism (most likely from Egypt, thanks to Jews in Alexandria). And grew slooooooowly over time. None of these ideas can be found in any part of the Old Testament.
 
Don't the events of about 30 AD matter? or evidence? from written sources for the period?

I wonder if the title should really be The Roots of Christianity (plural), rather than Root (singular)....

If it's the singular "Root" that's the topic, how can this be anything other than the event which happened about 30 AD in the Galilee/Judea region, where a person showed up who is said to have done miracles and rose back to life after he was killed?

How can "The Root of Christianity" not be that event, whatever one believes actually happened? What it is that happened there, at that time and place, causing those claims to be made and then leading to the new Christ cult(s) and the writings they produced -- that happening has to be the "Root" of the later Christianity, does it not?

Is it possible to imagine that "Christianity" would have happened anyway, even if no such special event happened there at that time? What if the historical Jesus person, instead of doing whatever he did, had gotten detracted, or suppose he had an accident and got killed, or otherwise never showed up there, or anywhere else, to do whatever he did.

If he had gotten erased from history somehow, would Christianity have happened anyway, just the same, only with a few minor details changed? Would another Messiah narrative have emerged instead, in place of this one, with someone else thrust into the Messiah role to serve as the savior which was predetermined to pop up somewhere anyway? complete with miracles and Resurrection narrative essentially the same but with only a few differences in detail?

You pose very interesting questions for which I don't have answers. However I challenge the apparent claim about the historicity of the Resurrection. That "event" was key to the eventual rise of Christianity, but it probably wasn't historic at all, and . . .

Based on the ideological premise that such a thing cannot happen, because it would be superhuman, which must be ruled out a priori. Understood. If you start with that ideological premise, a resurrection event is ruled out. But if you set that premise aside, allow whatever is shown by the evidence, or the facts we have from the time, then such an event has to be allowed as a possible explanation for the emergence of the new Christ cult(s) in the 1st century, from which the Christian "Church" finally evolved.

. . . wasn't historic at all, and seems not to have been key to the earliest christian (small-'c') church in Judaea.

How do you know what was "key" to the church(es) in Judaea? What written record from the time do you base that on? It's true there are modern sources which say things like that, but what 1st-century sources do they base this on?

One main 1st-century source for those church(es) in Judaea is Paul, writing his epistles around 50-55 AD (1 Corinthians and Galatians). He says those church leaders witnessed the resurrection of Jesus -- i.e., the 2 main leaders (Peter (Cephas) and James). He says this Resurrection event was important for all the early Christ believers. What 1st-century written record is there which says it was not important? Is there any 1st-century written record left by the "church in Judaea" which contradicts Paul?

Do you possibly mean the Epistles of James and Jude, which say nothing about anything Jesus did? These were teaching documents only, or instructional matter for the religious community probably sometime 30-60 years after Jesus was gone. They thought Jesus was important for some reason, because they identify him as "Lord" and themselves as his "slave" or servant. Paul says they had witnessed the resurrection of Jesus, which would explain why they took him as "Lord" and themselves as "slave" to him. What other explanation is there for them to relegate themselves to this inferior "slave" position?

Or, what other 1st-century written source is there showing what was "key" for the church(es) in Judaea? and saying the Resurrection was not important?


It was St. Paul the Evangelist — who never met the living Jesus and had little interest in his teachings — who founded the Christian (large-'C') religion.

There were other "Christians" who were not directly part of Paul's activity, probably even many who knew nothing of Paul.

For all of them there was the same interest in Jesus who had been arrested and crucified and buried and then risen back to life. Maybe you're right that Paul's main interest was not "in his teaching" but rather in his act of resurrecting, after being killed, and then "ascending" to a place of high power from which Paul says he offers eternal life.

However you explain it, Paul's "religion" is nothing without Christ as the center of it, having power and offering eternal life.


And the idea that Jesus was God wasn't agreed until the 4th-century Council of Nicaea, with Emperor Constantine the Great banishing those Bishops who disagreed.

No, this idea and others like it were agreed (and disagreed also) long before the 4th century. The Council confirmed some of these earlier ideas, based mostly on the 1st-century written sources.


The earliest writings about Jesus — the Gospel of Mark and the hypothetical Q source — barely mention any Resurrection.

No, all the earliest writings about what happened mention the Resurrection. The Mark reference is more brief than the others.

The hypothetical Q source has not been identified. If you define it as a "sayings"-only document, then you automatically exclude the Resurrection from it because this is an event rather than a saying. But you can't simply define something into non-importance -- i.e., by defining Q as sayings-only and then disqualifying the Resurrection because it's absent from Q. The Resurrection is included in every source which reports what happened.

There is no agreed listing of texts distinguishing all the Q text from the Markan text and the Luke-only text and the Matthew-only text. Different interpretations arrange these text sources differently, so there's no agreed standard for saying what Q includes and what it excludes, unless you just define it to exclude what you want to exclude from it.

"The earliest writings about Jesus" that are confirmed are the Paul epistles, which very prominently mention the Resurrection.


The post-Crucifixion appearances of Jesus in the final 12 verses of Mark are thought to be late additions. An empty tomb story got embellished with fictions.

There's probably embellishment. Any true event which has impact is likely to undergo embellishment, so that it becomes difficult to separate fact from fiction.

We can try to separate out everything but the bare essentials. E.g., Paul's statement could be condensed: "Christ died, . . . he was buried, . . . he was raised, . . . he appeared to Kephas, then to the Twelve, etc." (1 Cor. 15:3-5). All the accounts say this, though Mark only predicts the appearances to happen later. Then all include their different details, which partly harmonize and partly contradict the others. Which is normal with important historical events about which people have strong feelings.

That the story got changed in the details from one account to another does not change the basic fact of the crucifixion, death and resurrection, which is the starting point for them all.


This article in The Atlantic discusses the Q source, and therefore the earliest non-Pauline christian religion.
the authors of Q did not view Jesus as "the Christ" (that is, as "the anointed one," the promised Messiah), or as the redeemer who had atoned for their sins by his crucifixion, or as the son of God who rose from the dead.

The "authors" in question, assuming we can identify them in some way, probably had differing interpretations of all the above, and not ascribing rigidly to the above doctrines. But also not repudiating them, especially not the Resurrection, which all our sources say was part of the Jesus events.

Again, Paul says the Resurrection was witnessed by them (those earliest -- around 30 AD), or that they witnessed his death but then saw him alive afterwards. There's no written record, e.g., Q etc., saying they did not know of the Resurrection, i.e., denying Paul's claim that they did know of it or witnessed it. Any theory that they didn't know of it is based on modern conjecture only, not on any 1st-century written sources.


Instead, they say, Q's authors esteemed Jesus as simply a roving sage who preached a life of possessionless wandering and full acceptance of one's fellow human beings, no matter how disreputable or marginal.

This could be correct -- it's conjecture, maybe good conjecture. But nothing about it excludes the likelihood of the Resurrection also. There's nothing about Q that rules out the Resurrection or that contradicts Paul. All that rules out the Resurrection is the ideological premise that it could not have happened, and also that hopefully it did not happen, because such things should not happen. Other than this, there's no reason to exclude the Resurrection as an event as reported in the Gospel accounts and also in Paul, which are our only definite reports about what happened.


In that respect, they say, he was a Jesus for the America of the third millennium, a Jesus with little supernatural baggage but much respect for cultural diversity.

It's OK to modify one's interpretation of Jesus to fit modern worldviews. But none of that can change the hard facts of what happened in 30 AD. A reported event from the 1st century cannot simply be erased from history by modern feelings people have about what should have happened back then. It's more honest to simply take the reported events from the past, and then work the modern beliefs into the picture as best as they can fit, without pretending to correct the past record by changing it according to what someone today thinks ought to have happened instead of what did actually happen, based on the accounts from that time, including any new findings.

Of course this can include corrections, if mistakes or discrepancies in the sources are discovered. But the reported facts of what happened 2000 years ago cannot be based on modern philosophizing about what should have happened, or on a modern need to install certain wholesome thinking patterns into children, and thus erase facts from the historical record, like a Jesus who might have done something which today we're not supposed to believe even if it did happen.

More scientific, and healthy, is to acknowledge our uncertainty about some of the past history, and so we can think in terms of the probabilities, and do some guesswork about what happened, without dogmatically excluding possibilities for which there is evidence. I.e., there is evidence that the Jesus miracles did happen, but one can still disbelieve because of doubt, so that some believe because of the evidence and reasonable hope, while others disbelieve because of doubt and skepticism. And also it's reasonable to believe, from the evidence, while still having doubt.
 
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