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Compatibilism: What's that About?

It is not rocket science.
Except that it kind of is, at least to the level DBT is insisting to see.

They do not understand how a machine can do a choosing operation in such a way to encompass an element that defines "will", such that that can be "free: true/false". They demand to know how the machine may do these things, without learning how machines go about "doing things".

We come with a built-in "biological will" to survive, thrive, and reproduce. Later, intelligence evolved to give us imagination, evaluation, and choosing, which enables a "deliberate will".

Machines don't come with a will of their own. We create machines to do our will. Our will is controlled by our own goals and reasons to serve our own interests, but machines have no goals, reasons, or interests of their own. That's the key distinction between machines and us.
 
It is not rocket science.
Except that it kind of is, at least to the level DBT is insisting to see.

They do not understand how a machine can do a choosing operation in such a way to encompass an element that defines "will", such that that can be "free: true/false". They demand to know how the machine may do these things, without learning how machines go about "doing things".

We come with a built-in "biological will" to survive, thrive, and reproduce. Later, intelligence evolved to give us imagination, evaluation, and choosing, which enables a "deliberate will".

Machines don't come with a will of their own. We create machines to do our will. Our will is controlled by our own goals and reasons to serve our own interests, but machines have no goals, reasons, or interests of their own. That's the key distinction between machines and us.
We come with a will by the same way any other machine does: it gets put there by process.

It just happens we have a piece most of our engineered machines do not, in that the process that puts our wills there is part of the same process group that actuates on said will.

It is not even universally true that our manufactured machines have had their wills put there by people. Often enough even this is initialized chaotically or in a genetic way and then refined entirely by internal processes.
 
I start with the world is material and determined
All that gets you to is "material and determined". It doesn't get you away from compatibilist free will. Maybe that gets you away from some imaginary nonsensical concept of "libertarian free will", but I'm not talking about libertarian free will.

That bit about freedom to goal is a lot more iffy. To do so the system would have to be non determinant
No, to do so any localization of the deterministic system would have to model the system stochastically.

The subsystem within the deterministic progression is stochastic.

Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demands this is the case for all subsets of the system.

We CANNOT determine the whole system from inside the system so OUR behavior within it has a property of free will.

Evaluation of Freedom to goal is defined as "do all functional unit tests pass?" And truth of freedom to goal is evaluated as to "did execution return expected output?"

And all this can be automated. Each part can be jacked into another part until the process just goes.

It helps when the subsystem has a source of chaos to simulate the unavailability of information that may pertain to the environment.
I take the view the event is determined but probable. That has nothing to do with will. Rather it has to do many options being similarly probable consequents of event at time t. It may have been consesquent a, b, c, .... which are all similar but not having anything to do with choosing. They are simply proximal and similarly determinable. One of them will be shown determined in each experiment. From my perspective every consequent is determined but not every consequent is realized still leading to incompleteness.

Will would be a force, one not yet discovered apparently, according to your assertions. I say if it isn't material it doesn't exist. Will undiscovered doesn't exist.
 
Everything in there is mutable and not only can the system be altered, it is trivially true that the system alters itself.


A fine example of a poor understanding of determinism. A deterministic system does alter itself. All the objects and events within the system enact changes within the system.

The point being, there are no alternative changes. The changes are determined. The outcome is fixed, Which means no random or chosen alternatives, only what is determined.

Therefore, no freedom to do otherwise. Without freedom to do otherwise, you cannot choose to do otherwise, only what is determined by the system, of which your brain is an inseparable part.

Without the ability to choose or do otherwise within a determined system, free will cannot exist.

In your own words; Jarhyn - ''A deterministic system is a system in which no randomness is involved in the development of future states of the system'' - ie - outcomes are fixed.

And keep in mind that we are discussing compatibilism, which is the claim that free will is compatible with determinism....not this, that or something else.
 
Inner necessitation is a meaningful restraint. Given that a person has no awareness or control of the mechanisms that forms them and their experience self and the world, a person does precisely what the state and condition of their system determines.

You're still invoking dualism.

I don't. Never have. Just the opposite. That if a system is deterministic, it is the state of the system that determines outcomes and free will plays no part in what happens. It plays no part because it doesn't exist.

Well, the state of the system happens to be us, as we are right now. And we are not idle while trying to decide what we will have for dinner. We are doing something called "choosing what we will have for dinner". And if we are free to make this choice for ourselves, it is called a "freely chosen I will have the salad", or simply free will. It is not rocket science.

But is not just us. The system is the whole world, the environment, our species, our genes, our culture, society, social conditioning, etc, etc.

What we choose is determined by the circumstances we are in, the options being presented, the state of our brain and mind, which within a determined system only allows one action to be realized in any particular circumstance: not the action chosen through the mythical power of free will, but the determined action.

If you choose the salad and time could be re-wound and replayed, it would always be the salad. Replayed a million times over, always the salad.
 
Wrong. It has been explained why it is wrong, over and over. The article I just quoted explains it. Your objections are laughable.


You don't want to think that you or some sociopath or whatever have a choice, or had a choice.

Are you saying that Sociopaths choose to be Sociopaths? Really? Surely not. Or are you just saying that Sociopaths are able to think and decide? If you mean the latter, you haven't understood a word that's been said.
Some part of the sociopath represents a decision to do the things sociopaths do. If there is any part of the sociopath not down with being such, it may have it's free will abrogated by the part that wants so very badly to be one.

Of course being a sociopath effects thought and decision making according to the state of the system.

That is the point;

''Psychopathy is a personality disorder characterized by a lack of empathy and remorse, shallow affect, glibness, manipulation and callousness. Previous research indicates that the rate of psychopathy in prisons is around 23%, greater than the average population which is around 1%.

To better understand the neurological basis of empathy dysfunction in psychopaths, neuroscientists used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) on the brains of 121 inmates of a medium-security prison in the USA.''

When highly psychopathic participants imagined pain to themselves, they showed a typical neural response within the brain regions involved in empathy for pain, including the anterior insula, the anterior midcingulate cortex, somatosensory cortex, and the right amygdala. The increase in brain activity in these regions was unusually pronounced, suggesting that psychopathic people are sensitive to the thought of pain.

But when participants imagined pain to others, these regions failed to become active in high psychopaths. Moreover, psychopaths showed an increased response in the ventral striatum, an area known to be involved in pleasure, when imagining others in pain.''

Other times, the part that is capable of saying no says "yes" instead, and gives free will to a monster that kills people, becoming that thing entire.

This is a choice, given knowledge that they could have decided to say no.
Hallett is a specialist in brain function, cognition and motor action. Given that thought, will and action are functions of the brain, there is nobody more qualified to comment.
If they are not an expert in neural training, modelling, and assembly, with a strong background in machine architecture they are still just a bystander to actual understanding here.

You are making an argument from authority to someone who has actually built a synthetic neuron, strung a bunch together, and understood how logic and process and state machine behaviors arise from this arrangement.

Go back to school and learn why you are wrong.

BS. I am supporting the proposition that it is the state of the brain, neural architecture, state and condition, that determines behaviour, not free will.

As that is precisely what Hallett, et al, being qualified in their field, are doing, I point to the research, results and implications for the idea of free will.

The issue cannot be settled through philosophizing and rearranging definitions and careful wording. It's a question of how brains work, how we think and how we make decisions.

Once again;

''I don't think "free will" is a very sensible concept, and you don't need neuroscience to reject it -- any mechanistic view of the world is good enough, and indeed you could even argue on purely conceptual grounds that the opposite of determinism is randomness, not free will! Most thoughtful neuroscientists I know have replaced the concept of free will with the concept of rationality -- that we select our actions based on a kind of practical reasoning. And there is no conflict between rationality and the mind as a physical system -- After all, computers are rational physical systems!'' - Martha Farah, director of the University of Pennsylvania's Center for Cognitive Neuroscience and a prominent neuroethicist.
 
I take the view
Talk about self_reference...


Will would be a force
If it would be, then I have proven that new forces arise as hosted by any thing which may be treated "as a field", such as fields of memory or fields of bias along logically non linear directed graphs.

But regardless of whether I proved that, I have absolutely proved a "will", here "a set of instructions that a system is deterministically going to execute" is a thing.

Moan all you wish, it's right there to see.
 
sociopath effects thought
Being a sociopath doesn't just "affect" thought, it IS a thought, entirely composed of the process of thinking. "Lack of remorse" is a shape of a thought and anything that can either spark or stand in for that remorse is sufficient to.prevent the diagnosis.

Marvin was right, you are committing to a false duality here.
I am supporting the proposition that it is the state of the brain, neural architecture, state and condition, that determines behaviour, not free will
This is exactly a duality that compatibilist do not step into, so you are screaming to the void a mere tantrum.

Free will, is a part of the visible geometry of the state and condition of the brain.

To understand HOW the state and condition of the brain encodes these objectively observable elements of compatibilist free will, the elements which I have described as: instructions; test; interpreter; execution; memory; return monitoring which are the pieces from which "free" becomes a describable, objective property of a "will" (instructions/plan), you will need to learn how neurons actually generate behavior.

It's a few classes on basic programming, a course on liner algebra, a course on assembly language, a course on Machine Architecture, and at least two courses on Machine Learning with a focus on HTMs on the higher level course.

As it is all your experts speak to libertarian free will, not compatibilist free will.

Have fun with your religion I guess.
 
Prior will is no more free of antecedents and inner necessitation than is current will or future will.

Fortunately, no one ever needs to be free of prior causes in order to be the meaningful and relevant cause of what they do next.

Yet what they do next is fixed, not chosen by free will, but set by antecedents in the form of inner necessitation.

''Der Mensch kann zwar tun, was er will, aber er kann nicht wollen, was er will - A man can do what he wants, but not choose or select what he wants'' - Schopenhauer.

Nor is will the orchestrator of decision making.

The will of the customers to have dinner in the restaurant is what causes them to pick up the menu, review the menu, consider specific options, and make their choice.

Did you think that will was something else? Perhaps a sprite or spirit floating in the air?

The will of the customer is determined by life and the world. The will of the customer is fixed by antecedents. The customer has only one possible action in any given situation, not the willed action, but the determined action.

''Each state of the universe and its events are the necessary result of its prior state and prior events.'' - Marvin Edwards.




The brain generates the will to act based on needs and wants

There, that wasn't so hard. Now, consider the fact that after the brain generates the will to have dinner in the restaurant, that product of the brain then becomes the input to subsequent brain activity, like reading the menu and making a choice.

We don't choose our needs or wants. They develop within our system regardless of our will;

“It might be true that you would have done otherwise if you had wanted, though it is determined that you did not, in fact, want otherwise.” - Robert Kane

which are determined by countless factors, circumstances, needs, wants, fears...

Yes, but only the factors that still remain within us, after those prior events have passed, get to participate in our choice. No prior cause of us can participate in our decision without first becoming an integral part of who and what we are. Result: It is actually us, in the here and now, that is making the decision.

That there are factors within us that determine our behaviour doesn't mean that we chose our condition, or that we can do otherwise.


Will emerges relatively late in the process. First inputs, then propagation, then processing of information, integrating with memory function enabling recognition (milliseconds), etc, etc....

No, that doesn't hold up. Will, whether conscious or unconscious, motivates and directs subsequent conscious or unconscious brain activity. For example, the conscious will to have dinner at the restaurant results in the unconscious activity of the motor cortex as it lifts our legs and shifts our weight such that we walk through the restaurant's door.

Information acquisition and processing precedes both unconscious and conscious will, and determines what is thought, felt and done.

Neural networks function according to their makeup and wiring, not their will. It's a biological mechanism, not a free will agency.

Yet it is specifically the state of the system, not will, that decides in any given instance.

Will is a part of the state of the system which is us. The choosing process, also a part of the state of the system which is us, determines our deliberate will.

Will comes after information acquisition and processing. That is the agency. The brain is an information processor.

What we imagine is not necessarily what we in fact do. What we imagine also has antecedents.

Correct on both counts.

With the related consequences for the idea of free will.
That is causal necessitation at work.

Causal necessitation does no work. Causal necessitation is about what the objects and forces that actually do the work are doing. For example, it is our own brain that is doing the work of choosing, in a reliable and deterministic manner.

Causal necessitation refers to the system, its makeup, state and function. Synapses, dendrites, axons, signals between cells and regions, inputs from organs and senses, memory input and integration in relation to the external world; determining how we think, what we think and what we do....

The brain shapes and forms our conscious experience on the basis of information acquired and memory function by means of neural activity.

Yes, but also keep in mind that the brain is also having that conscious experience.

Sure, the brain is producing the conscious experience based on its underlying information processing activity, of which consciousness is blissfully unaware.

Memory function failure alone disintegrates consciousness.

I don't think so. We have immediate conscious experience of sensory information, even if we immediately forget it. We have long term and short term memory working separately, such that a person can lose short term memory of what just happened but can recount events from long ago, and we also have the loss of long term memory where short term memory still functions fine (for the few minutes that it lasts).

The consequences of the loss of memory function is well documented.

Yes, there are different memory functions, biographical, episodic, short term, long term, etc....and the point is that whatever form of memory function is lost, the consequences are related to that function.

It can get to the point where the patient no longer recognizes family, friends, themselves or common objects in the environment and consciousness is reduced to incomprehensible shapes and movements.

Neutral? It determines the very state of the system, the world, the brain, thought and action.

Well, no. Causal necessity itself causes nothing and necessitates nothing. And the fact of reliable causation, from which we logically derive causal necessity, is always true, whether it rains or shines, so it is a neutral notion.

''Causal necessity'' just refers to how the system works, its elements and how they interact deterministically.
 
A fine example of a poor understanding of determinism
That has nothing to do with "determinism". This is just "systems in general".
All the objects and events within the system enact changes within the system
But they don't all enact changes the same time. Some changes are limited to the speed of light in their propagation. Some of those changes are much much slower.

The photons that leave our star started the process millions of years ago, and take seven whole minutes to reach us.

The point is that we are locally constrained. Discussing global properties does not even touch on local properties. The local properties merely have to be compatible with the global ones.

Just like "the picture has an average color of red" does not discount the ability of a single pixel to be blue. Or, "the screen is flat teal" does not conflict with "that subpixel is blue".

Your view of the global property is also itself wrong, insofar as the universe itself has that whole "randomness" thing going on underneath the easily available layers of deterministic-seeming shit.

The overall system determinancy does not matter to US insofar as we cannot hold that, so we cannot operate deterministically: we are stochastic operators in a (maybe) deterministic system.

Compatibilist free will
exists within the context of our stochastic operations and strategies. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem explains why all local entities within all systems, deterministic or not, are limited at best to stochastic behavioral modelling.

Compatibilist free will is not like global libertarian free will. It exists precisely because of what we cannot know, and we cannot know it on account of Incompleteness.

You might understand some of these things if you took any of those courses I keep encouraging you to take.
 
in the form of inner necessitation
So, in the form of "will"
A man can do what he wants, but not choose or select what he wants
And then Schopenhauer was wrong.

I have explained exactly how YOU may choose to want something, right now. It's a little silly, but it works.

Schopenhauer just didn't know how. That's not a problem for a great many of us.

I mean shit, if we couldn't change what we want, what the fuck do people advertise for?

It doesn't happen easy, and it doesn't happen quick (usually), but it is trivially true that we change and even oppose in many ways our own intents and wills on a daily basis.

Those who don't are literally "The Stranger" as described by Camus or "Candide" as described by Voltaire and neither is much use or fun to be around.

The will of the customer is determined by life and the world
"Was", not "is" in the context of the decision, the rest of the world is not in fact interacting yet. It will take an eternity of Planck seconds as light crawls from there to the decision-maker, and it is not there yet. And slower still are the sounds, and all the other waves.

"The world" that determined the will of the customer has come to a point at which THAT and not the world outside, is now entirely the thing making decisions.

''Causal necessity'' just refers to how the system works, its elements and how they interact deterministically
But you still fail to realize that in the field of causal necessity, there are still localities, local events, and it is the local phenomena which we are describing.

It's like taking a look at an electron and saying "that electron is not "there", it is "everywhere"," Not taking into account that it's still got a locus of probability.
 
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BS. I am supporting the proposition that it is the state of the brain, neural architecture, state and condition, that determines behaviour, not free will.

Correct, except for the last clause after the final comma, “not free will.” Drop that final three-word clause, and you’re correct.

Since I AM my brain, it follows that “neural architecture, state and condition” that determines behavior is ME determining my behavior. That IS compatibilist free will.

Jarhyn is right, your real target is libertarian, not compatibilist, free will.

The libertarian and the hard determinist both essentially say that “I” must be free of “me” to have free will — a logical absurdity. The difference between the two is that the hard determinist correctly maintains that it is impossible for “I” to be free of “me,” whereas the libertarian incorrectly argues that “I” can be free of “me.”

The compatibilist comes along and simply points out that whereas the hard determinist is correct to say that “I” cannot be free of “me,” he is incorrect to hold that this precludes free will, for it only precludes the libertarian variety of it.
 
I take the view
Talk about self_reference...


Will would be a force
If it would be, then I have proven that new forces arise as hosted by any thing which may be treated "as a field", such as fields of memory or fields of bias along logically non linear directed graphs.

But regardless of whether I proved that, I have absolutely proved a "will", here "a set of instructions that a system is deterministically going to execute" is a thing.

Moan all you wish, it's right there to see.
Nothing there. Fields of memory and bias, both self constructs. That I hold positions verified as material are not self constructs. I don't see wishes, gargoyles of mind.
 
I take the view
Talk about self_reference...


Will would be a force
If it would be, then I have proven that new forces arise as hosted by any thing which may be treated "as a field", such as fields of memory or fields of bias along logically non linear directed graphs.

But regardless of whether I proved that, I have absolutely proved a "will", here "a set of instructions that a system is deterministically going to execute" is a thing.

Moan all you wish, it's right there to see.
Nothing there. Fields of memory and bias, both self constructs. That I hold positions verified as material are not self constructs. I don't see wishes, gargoyles of mind.
The sound wave is still objectively there, even if it is there on top of some other field.

You are hand-waving away objectively real phenomena, as I expected you eventually would.

The self that constructs these this is objectively there, and bound to a locality and properties of locality.

I have absolutely proved a "will", here "a set of instructions that a system is deterministically going to execute" is a thing.

That you dislike the way forces may be hosted on fields constructed on and of other fields is not my problem, it's yours.
 
That if a system is deterministic, it is the state of the system that determines outcomes and free will plays no part in what happens. It plays no part because it doesn't exist.

Free will is an empirical event in which a person decides for themselves what they will do while free of coercion and other forms of undue influence. It is objectively observed in the real world as a real event. The example I've offered, of people walking into a restaurant, browsing the menu, and placing their orders is proof that such events are both real and quite common.

The claim that free will is not real is only supported by rhetorical claims and strawman definitions. For example, it is claimed that free will must be free of prior causes, free of causal necessity, free of determinism, free of our own brains, free of our genetic makeup, free of our prior experiences, etc. Hard determinists know that these are all impossible freedoms, and therefore they cannot be the meaningful definitions of anything.

It is only necessary that our choice is caused by us, by our own goals and reasons, by our own thoughts and feelings, etc. The only thing free will must be free of is coercion and undue influence.

But is not just us. The system is the whole world, the environment, our species, our genes, our culture, society, social conditioning, etc, etc.

Well, no. It was just a few of us at the table in the restaurant. It was not a world-wide event. And, my species, my genes, my culture, my social conditioning, are now just me, sitting at the restaurant table, deciding what I will have for dinner.

What we choose is determined by the circumstances we are in, the options being presented, the state of our brain and mind, which within a determined system only allows one action to be realized in any particular circumstance: not the action chosen through the mythical power of free will, but the determined action.

And I chose the circumstances by deciding to join my friends for dinner in the restaurant. The number of options on the menu was sufficient to give me a broad range of choices. The state of my brain and mind was entirely me, of course. And I required no "mythical powers" to decide for myself what I would order for dinner. All the power required came with the brain, and the brain came with me.

If you choose the salad and time could be re-wound and replayed, it would always be the salad. Replayed a million times over, always the salad.

Yes. On every replay it would always be the salad. And, on every replay, it would once again be possible to order the steak instead. And, although I could order the steak, I wouldn't.
 
Nothing there. Fields of memory and bias, both self constructs. That I hold positions verified as material are not self constructs. I don't see wishes, gargoyles of mind.
The sound wave is still objectively there, even if it is there on top of some other field.

You are hand-waving away objectively real phenomena, as I expected you eventually would.

The self that constructs these this is objectively there, and bound to a locality and properties of locality.

I have absolutely proved a "will", here "a set of instructions that a system is deterministically going to execute" is a thing.

That you dislike the way forces may be hosted on fields constructed on and of other fields is not my problem, it's yours.
Who brought up the sound wave? Not I. If you are suggesting humans experience sound waves and therefore humans are reflecting the material world materially you are wrong. We experience subjectively. We don't sense the movement of fluids disturbed by vibrating drums. We process neural reports arranged in spectral fashion from nerves in the cochlea. Much is known, but none of it rises to the brain reporting what is physically out there.

On the other hand, you attribute material, presumed, properties to subjective constructions. The mind is a subjective construct containing all the dimensions scientists think are important to consciousness and thought, also subjective constructs. It is meant to be a place holder for what is believed to be material processes underlying our sense of them.

I'm quite optimistic that science will make the necessary connections between material stimuli and biological processes to resolve much of what we put in the mind black box reducing it to objectivity. I'm just as sure that what we think the mind does is all wrong and will be proven so in the near future.
 
We experience subjectively
No, we experience objectively. Light, an object comes into my eyes, an object, and pings off a receptor, an object, which sends an objective reaction along my neuron, which is an object, which knocks off of another neuron and so on and so forth objects all the way down, until the confluence of objective reaction along the network (a wave, in fact) comes through to overcome a specific action potential that rockets down a series of more neurons into motor action.

All that is done by objects, objectively. In the middle, those objects doing all that creates perturbations of fields that travel in directions by a distance but based on the fact that neural fields are irregular, create complex, irregular behaviors.

We call the middle part "experience". It is only "subjective" insofar as the objects doing all this are arranged differently in different subjects of observation. Those subjects are each objectively what they are in any case.

You seem to be speaking against the same dualistic nonsense that DBT is: I don't give a shit about nonsensical libertarian free will. I'm a compatibilist.
 
Nothing there. Fields of memory and bias, both self constructs. That I hold positions verified as material are not self constructs. I don't see wishes, gargoyles of mind.
The sound wave is still objectively there, even if it is there on top of some other field.

You are hand-waving away objectively real phenomena, as I expected you eventually would.

The self that constructs these this is objectively there, and bound to a locality and properties of locality.

I have absolutely proved a "will", here "a set of instructions that a system is deterministically going to execute" is a thing.

That you dislike the way forces may be hosted on fields constructed on and of other fields is not my problem, it's yours.
Who brought up the sound wave? Not I. If you are suggesting humans experience sound waves and therefore humans are reflecting the material world materially you are wrong. We experience subjectively. We don't sense the movement of fluids disturbed by vibrating drums. We process neural reports arranged in spectral fashion from nerves in the cochlea. Much is known, but none of it rises to the brain reporting what is physically out there.

On the other hand, you attribute material, presumed, properties to subjective constructions. The mind is a subjective construct containing all the dimensions scientists think are important to consciousness and thought, also subjective constructs. It is meant to be a place holder for what is believed to be material processes underlying our sense of them.

I'm quite optimistic that science will make the necessary connections between material stimuli and biological processes to resolve much of what we put in the mind black box reducing it to objectivity. I'm just as sure that what we think the mind does is all wrong and will be proven so in the near future. Ain't overturning history wunnerful.
 
I'm just as sure that what we think the mind does is all wrong and will be proven so in the near future.
I'm absolutely certain that you are quite wrong about how the mind functions on account of the fact that you never actually studied how the mind functions. Rather, you studied about how certain neurons function in a certain situation and only a small part of that.

If you wish to understand how minds function, this is already deeply studied and well understood to the point where we assemble the things minds are made logically of to create minds artificially.

I keep telling DBT this might as well tell you: if you wish to study what the mind does, you need a few courses on basic programming, linear algebra, machine architecture, assembly language, Machine Learning and HTMs.
 
.

You seem to be speaking against the same dualistic nonsense that DBT is: I don't give a shit about nonsensical libertarian free will. I'm a compatibilist.

The sad part is that you have not understood a word I said. Nothing I have said supports dualism. Just the opposite.

If you don't understand what is being said, just ask. Stop making assumptions that suit your own needs and misrepresent your opponent.
 
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