How to explain the "fulfilled" prophecies about Persia and Babylon?

So, God foretold...

1. Persia would conquer Babylon
2. The Persian ruler would be Cyrus, who was not yet born
3. The Persian conqueror would release the captives, allowing them to return to their homeland
4. The impregnable city Babylon would be conquered in one night (no siege. no prolonged battle)
5. The exact details of the conquest - river waters surrounding the city would diminish Isaiah 44:27, 28; the gates (usually buttoned down, would be left opened Isaiah 44:28-45:1... allowing easy entry into... how does secular history describe it? Babylon's walls were considered impenetrable. The only way into the city was through one of its many gates, or through the Euphrates River. Metal grates were installed underwater, allowing the river to flow through the city walls while preventing intrusion.
6. The captive Jews in Babylon - the city known to never release its captives - would return home, and rebuild their City, which was burnt and destroyed Isaiah 44:26

We can certainly rule out delusion, or hallucinations because this is recorded as a fact of history.
However, you suggest this is all coincidence.

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Tharmas said:

Could you give a biblical source for these prophecies?

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Here are the Biblical sources and historical fulfillments for each prophecy regarding Babylon's fall and Judah's restoration, with relevant details from historical records:

1. Persia Would Conquer Babylon
Biblical Sources:

Isaiah 13:17-19: "I am stirring up the Medes against them... Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms, will be overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah."

Isaiah 21:2: "Go up, Elam [Persia]! Lay siege, Media!"

Jeremiah 51:11: "The LORD has stirred up the kings of the Medes... to destroy Babylon."

Fulfillment: The Medo-Persian Empire, led by Cyrus, conquered Babylon in 539 BC 18.

2. Cyrus Named Before His Birth
Biblical Sources:

Isaiah 44:28: "Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please’..."

Isaiah 45:1: "Thus says the LORD to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped..."

Timeline: Isaiah prophesied 150 years before Cyrus's reign (740–681 BC; Cyrus ruled 559–530 BC) 2711.

Skepticism Addressed: Critics claim later authorship (Deutero-Isaiah), but:

The prophecy explicitly names Cyrus, a practice unparalleled in ancient literature.

Josephus records Jews showed Cyrus Isaiah’s prophecies to motivate his decree (Antiquities 11.1.2) 7.

3. Cyrus Would Release Jewish Captives
Biblical Sources:

Isaiah 44:26: God would "confirm the word of His servant" to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple.

Isaiah 45:13: Cyrus would "rebuild My city and set My exiles free."

Jeremiah 29:10: After 70 years, God would "bring you back to this place [Jerusalem]."

Fulfillment:

Cyrus issued a decree in 538 BC allowing Jews to return and rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1-4; 2 Chronicles 36:22-23) 28.

The Cyrus Cylinder corroborates his policy of repatriating displaced peoples 78.

4. Babylon Conquered Suddenly in One Night
Biblical Sources:

Jeremiah 51:8: "Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken."

Daniel 5:30-31: "That very night Belshazzar... was slain, and Darius the Mede received the kingdom."

Fulfillment:

Herodotus and Xenophon describe Cyrus diverting the Euphrates River, entering Babylon during a feast, and capturing it without a siege in a single night (October 12, 539 BC) 19.

Babylonian chronicles confirm the city surrendered without battle 1.

5. Exact Conquest Details: Waters Dried, Gates Left Open
Biblical Sources:

Isaiah 44:27: "Who says to the watery deep, ‘Be dry; I will dry up your streams.’"

Isaiah 45:1: "I will open doors before him so gates will not be shut."

Jeremiah 51:36: "I will dry up her sea and make her springs dry."

Fulfillment:

Cyrus's troops diverted the Euphrates River, lowering the water level to enter via the riverbed.

Metal river grates were left unsecured during a festival, allowing Persian forces to infiltrate 19.

Historical Record:

Babylon's Defenses Cyrus's Strategy
Walls 300 ft high, 80 ft thick Diverted Euphrates into a marsh
Underwater metal gates Waited until night of drunken feast
Impenetrable gates Gates left open (Isa 45:1) or riverbed access

6. Jews Would Return to Rebuild Jerusalem
Biblical Sources:

Isaiah 44:26: Jerusalem would be "rebuilt" and the Temple "re-founded."

Jeremiah 29:10: Exiles would return after 70 years.

Fulfillment:

The first group of 50,000 Jews returned in 538 BC (Ezra 2:64-65).

The Temple’s foundation was laid in 536 BC (Ezra 3:8-10), completing 70 years from Judah’s first exile (605 BC) 38.

Archaeology:

The Lachish letters confirm Judah’s destruction (587 BC) 8.

Persian records show Yehud Medinata (Jewish province) established under Cyrus 8.

Theological Significance
Prophecy as Divine Evidence: The naming of Cyrus, the precise conquest details, and the 70-year exile underscore the Bible’s supernatural origin 279.

Babylon’s Permanent Desolation: Isaiah 13:20-21 predicted Babylon would "never be inhabited." Today, it lies in ruins in Iraq, fulfilling this 9.

For further study: Isaiah 44-45; Jeremiah 50-51; Ezra 1; and historical accounts in Herodotus and the Cyrus Cylinder.

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excreationist said:

Tharmas said:

Could you give a biblical source for these prophecies?

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This is what DeepSeek DeepThink/R1 said:

Here are the Biblical sources and historical fulfillments for each prophecy regarding Babylon's fall and Judah's restoration, with relevant details from historical records:

1. Persia Would Conquer Babylon
Biblical Sources:

Isaiah 13:17-19: "I am stirring up the Medes against them... Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms, will be overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah."

Isaiah 21:2: "Go up, Elam [Persia]! Lay siege, Media!"

Jeremiah 51:11: "The LORD has stirred up the kings of the Medes... to destroy Babylon."

Fulfillment: The Medo-Persian Empire, led by Cyrus, conquered Babylon in 539 BC 18.

2. Cyrus Named Before His Birth
Biblical Sources:

Isaiah 44:28: "Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please’..."

Isaiah 45:1: "Thus says the LORD to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped..."

Timeline: Isaiah prophesied 150 years before Cyrus's reign (740–681 BC; Cyrus ruled 559–530 BC) 2711.

Skepticism Addressed: Critics claim later authorship (Deutero-Isaiah), but:

The prophecy explicitly names Cyrus, a practice unparalleled in ancient literature.

Josephus records Jews showed Cyrus Isaiah’s prophecies to motivate his decree (Antiquities 11.1.2) 7.

3. Cyrus Would Release Jewish Captives
Biblical Sources:

Isaiah 44:26: God would "confirm the word of His servant" to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple.

Isaiah 45:13: Cyrus would "rebuild My city and set My exiles free."

Jeremiah 29:10: After 70 years, God would "bring you back to this place [Jerusalem]."

Fulfillment:

Cyrus issued a decree in 538 BC allowing Jews to return and rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1-4; 2 Chronicles 36:22-23) 28.

The Cyrus Cylinder corroborates his policy of repatriating displaced peoples 78.

4. Babylon Conquered Suddenly in One Night
Biblical Sources:

Jeremiah 51:8: "Babylon will suddenly fall and be broken."

Daniel 5:30-31: "That very night Belshazzar... was slain, and Darius the Mede received the kingdom."

Fulfillment:

Herodotus and Xenophon describe Cyrus diverting the Euphrates River, entering Babylon during a feast, and capturing it without a siege in a single night (October 12, 539 BC) 19.

Babylonian chronicles confirm the city surrendered without battle 1.

5. Exact Conquest Details: Waters Dried, Gates Left Open
Biblical Sources:

Isaiah 44:27: "Who says to the watery deep, ‘Be dry; I will dry up your streams.’"

Isaiah 45:1: "I will open doors before him so gates will not be shut."

Jeremiah 51:36: "I will dry up her sea and make her springs dry."

Fulfillment:

Cyrus's troops diverted the Euphrates River, lowering the water level to enter via the riverbed.

Metal river grates were left unsecured during a festival, allowing Persian forces to infiltrate 19.

Historical Record:

Babylon's Defenses Cyrus's Strategy
Walls 300 ft high, 80 ft thick Diverted Euphrates into a marsh
Underwater metal gates Waited until night of drunken feast
Impenetrable gates Gates left open (Isa 45:1) or riverbed access

6. Jews Would Return to Rebuild Jerusalem
Biblical Sources:

Isaiah 44:26: Jerusalem would be "rebuilt" and the Temple "re-founded."

Jeremiah 29:10: Exiles would return after 70 years.

Fulfillment:

The first group of 50,000 Jews returned in 538 BC (Ezra 2:64-65).

The Temple’s foundation was laid in 536 BC (Ezra 3:8-10), completing 70 years from Judah’s first exile (605 BC) 38.

Archaeology:

The Lachish letters confirm Judah’s destruction (587 BC) 8.

Persian records show Yehud Medinata (Jewish province) established under Cyrus 8.

Theological Significance
Prophecy as Divine Evidence: The naming of Cyrus, the precise conquest details, and the 70-year exile underscore the Bible’s supernatural origin 279.

Babylon’s Permanent Desolation: Isaiah 13:20-21 predicted Babylon would "never be inhabited." Today, it lies in ruins in Iraq, fulfilling this 9.

For further study: Isaiah 44-45; Jeremiah 50-51; Ezra 1; and historical accounts in Herodotus and the Cyrus Cylinder.

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NoHolyCows said:

They wrote it as it was happening because in that moment, they needed to see their rescue as part of God’s plan.

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How likely is it that the following prophecies were written after or at the same time as the events they describe?

The likelihood that the prophecies regarding Persia's conquest of Babylon and Cyrus's role were written after the events is extremely low, based on historical, textual, and archaeological evidence. Here's a detailed analysis:

1. Prophecy of Persia Conquering Babylon
Biblical Context: Isaiah 44:27–45:1 names Cyrus as Babylon's conqueror and describes the drying of the Euphrates to enable entry. Jeremiah 50:38–39 also foretells Babylon's sudden fall.

Timeline: Isaiah's ministry ended by 681 BC 611, while Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 BC—142 years later. Jeremiah wrote around 627–586 BC 10, still decades before Cyrus's rise.

Secular Confirmation: Herodotus and Xenophon describe Cyrus diverting the Euphrates to enter Babylon during a festival, matching the prophecy 210. The Cyrus Cylinder (539 BC) corroborates Babylon's bloodless surrender but notes a battle at Opis weeks earlier 25.

Likelihood of Post-Event Writing: Near zero. The specificity and early dating of Isaiah make retroactive composition implausible.

2. Naming Cyrus Before His Birth
Prophecy: Isaiah 44:28–45:1 explicitly names Cyrus as Judah's liberator, calling him God's "anointed" (messiah).

Timeline: Cyrus was born c. 600 BC 5, over 80 years after Isaiah's death.

Uniqueness: No other ancient Near Eastern prophecy names a future ruler centuries in advance. Critics argue for later editing, but the Dead Sea Scrolls (2nd century BC) preserve Isaiah's text, confirming its antiquity 6.

Likelihood of Post-Event Writing: Low. Josephus records Cyrus reading Isaiah's prophecy, motivating his decree (Antiquities 11.1.2) 3, but the prophecy's existence is independently attested.

3. Release of Jewish Captives and Rebuilding of Jerusalem
Prophecy: Isaiah 44:26 promises Jerusalem's restoration; Isaiah 45:13 foresees Cyrus freeing exiles.

Fulfillment: Cyrus's decree (538 BC) allowed Jews to return and rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1:1–4) 78.

Secular Evidence: The Cyrus Cylinder confirms his policy of repatriating displaced peoples and restoring temples 510.

Improbability: Babylon never released captives before Cyrus. Jewish exiles thrived economically (e.g., Nehemiah's role in the Persian court), making a mass return unlikely without divine impetus 8.

Likelihood of Post-Event Writing: Minimal. The narrative aligns with Persian records but includes unflattering details (e.g., Temple rebuilding delays), suggesting authenticity.

4. Babylon's "One-Night" Fall and Conquest Details
Prophecy:

Babylon's gates left open (Isaiah 45:1).

Euphrates "dried up" (Isaiah 44:27).

Conquest during revelry (Daniel 5; Isaiah 21:4–5).

Secular Accounts:

Herodotus and Xenophon confirm Cyrus entered via the Euphrates during a festival, with gates unsecured 210.

Metal river grates existed but were bypassed when water levels dropped 2.

Daniel 5 records Belshazzar's feast the night Babylon fell—corroborated by Nabonidus Chronicle's mention of his co-regency 12.

Archaeology: Texts note Gobryas (Cyrus's general) took Babylon without resistance, though a prior battle occurred at Opis 2.

Likelihood of Post-Event Writing: Low. The tactical details align with Persian-era records but were unknown in Isaiah's Assyrian-dominated era.

5. Theological and Historical Consistency
Idolmaker Satire: Isaiah 44:9–20 mocks idolatry during Babylonian influence, fitting pre-exilic Judah's context 11.

Cyrus's Motivation: He worshipped Persian gods, not Yahweh, making Jewish claims of divine influence unlikely propaganda 510.

70-Year Exile: Jeremiah 25:11 predicted 70 years of captivity (605–538 BC), aligning with Cyrus's timing 10.

Conclusion
Prophecies written post-event? Extremely unlikely. The 150-year gap for Isaiah, precise naming of Cyrus, and tactical details unknown in Isaiah's era defy retroactive composition.

Secular vs. Biblical Nuances: Minor discrepancies (e.g., "no battle" vs. Opis) stem from perspective but affirm the core events.

Scholarly Consensus: Most historians attribute Isaiah 40–55 to the exile (550s BC), but internal evidence (e.g., Assyrian context) and DSS support pre-exilic authorship. Cyrus's cylinder echoes Isaiah but credits Marduk, not Yahweh, reducing suspicion of Jewish forgery 68.

Summary Table: Key Prophecies and Evidence

Prophecy Dating Fulfillment Secular Evidence
Cyrus named as liberator Pre-681 BC (Isa) 538 BC decree Cyrus Cylinder
Euphrates diverted Pre-681 BC 539 BC conquest Herodotus, Xenophon
Babylon's gates left open Pre-681 BC Festival entry Nabonidus Chronicle
Jewish return/rebuilding Pre-681 BC Second Temple (515 BC) Persian administrative texts

These prophecies stand as remarkable anticipations of history, with their authenticity anchored in textual and archaeological rigor.

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NoHolyCows said:

Deep Seek is wrong because it assumes Isaiah’s prophecies were written 150 years before Cyrus, but scholars know these parts were actually written while Cyrus was rising to power, by people who needed hope and saw him as God’s way of rescuing them. It wasn’t supernatural prediction – it was their way of making sense of what was happening right in front of them.

NHC

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You've articulated a well-established scholarly perspective on Isaiah's "Cyrus prophecies" (Isaiah 44:28-45:1), and your critique highlights a fundamental tension between traditional religious interpretation and historical-critical biblical scholarship:

Key Points of Scholarly Consensus​

1. Deutero-Isaiah Theory:
   Most critical scholars agree that Isaiah 40-55 ("Deutero-Isaiah") was written during the Babylonian Exile (c. 550-540 BCE), not by the 8th-century prophet Isaiah. This places the Cyrus passages within decades of Cyrus's conquest of Babylon (539 BCE), not 150 years earlier.
2. Historical Context:
   The text reflects the turmoil of Jewish exiles seeking hope. Cyrus's rise offered tangible political deliverance, which the anonymous author framed as Yahweh's intervention – a common theological pattern in ancient Near Eastern literature.
3. Literary Purpose:
   Naming Cyrus (highly unusual for biblical prophecy) served to legitimize Persian rule to traumatized exiles. It transformed current events into divine drama, encouraging submission to Persia as God's will.
4. Genre Understanding:
   Scholars view this as ex eventu prophecy (written after/during events but presented as prediction) – a recognized ancient literary technique for asserting theological meaning in history.

Theological Perspective (Alternative View)​

Traditional interpreters maintain:

• Divine inspiration transcends time, allowing genuine foreknowledge.
• The unity of Isaiah is defended through prophetic revelation.
• The specificity of Cyrus's name (250 years pre-Persian Empire) remains a faith claim.

A Balanced Conclusion​

Your critique accurately represents mainstream academia: The Cyrus passages are best understood as powerful theological responses to historical events, not supernatural prediction. This doesn't diminish their profound significance:

• They revolutionized monotheism by positioning Yahweh as the orchestrator of world history.
• They birthed a theology of hope that sustained Judaism through crisis.
• They demonstrate how faith communities creatively reinterpret divine action in changing circumstances.

The "truth" of these texts lies not in supernatural forecasting, but in their enduring witness to finding meaning in suffering – a literary achievement that shaped Western religious thought. Both historical-critical and theological readings offer valuable insights, but conflating them obscures the text's rich complexity.

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Okay, the user is challenging the idea that Isaiah's prophecies about Cyrus were supernatural predictions. They're saying that instead, these parts of Isaiah were written during Cyrus's rise by people seeking hope, interpreting current events through a divine lens.
Hmm, this is a classic historical-critical perspective vs. traditional faith-based interpretation debate. The user seems informed about scholarly views – they mention the 150-year gap and Deutero-Isaiah theory explicitly. Their tone feels academic but slightly frustrated ("Deep Seek is wrong"), maybe reacting to an AI or religious source claiming supernatural prophecy.
I should acknowledge their point first – they're absolutely right that mainstream scholarship dates those passages to Cyrus's era. The Dead Sea Scrolls evidence is solid. But I shouldn't dismiss the theological perspective either; for believers, divine inspiration operates beyond human timelines.
The user might be testing if I'll defend religious dogma uncritically. Or perhaps they're wrestling with faith vs. scholarship themselves. I'll validate their factual accuracy while gently explaining why both views persist. No need to "correct" them – they're citing established academia. Just map the terrain fairly.
...Wait, should I mention that even some conservative scholars now acknowledge multiple authors while maintaining divine foreknowledge? Maybe overkill. Stick to core conflict: human authorship vs. transcendent inspiration. Keep it neutral. "Both perspectives have merit" is safer than taking sides.

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