Anti-police protesters don't care about facts: Salt Lake City edition

[Derec]

Police and protesters clash after D.A. declares police shooting justified

Protesters denouncing the police shooting of Bernardo Palacios-Carbajal and the announcement that the officers who shot him were legally justified took to the streets Thursday night, spreading red paint as a symbol of bloodshed.

As the night went on, the approximately 200 protesters became more aggressive, breaking windows at Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill’s office and, according to a tweet from Salt Lake police, spraying officers with pepper spray. When demonstrators shattered the windows, police announced the gathering was now unlawful and began asking protesters to disperse.
[...]
Salt Lake police later tweeted that one officer was in a local hospital with injuries and two people had been arrested.

So we know the "protesters" are hardly peaceful.
And even though the dead guy was hispanic, #BLM is injecting themselves into the issue

Lex Scott, founder of Black Lives Matter in Utah, issued a prepared statement following Gill’s decision.

“Sim Gill continuously denies justice to the families of police brutality victims. Anyone who truly believes in the criminal justice system knows that people accused of crimes deserve to have their day in court. Black Lives Matter Utah will continue to work for a system that will not allow police to shoot fleeing suspects in the back.

But who is this Bernardo Palacios-Carbajal in the first place?
The article about the protests does not give much detail, except that he was shot after refusing to drop his gun.
But there is more detail here:
Police killing of Bernardo Palacios-Carbajal won’t lead to charges, a decision that infuriates his family

Bodycam footage shows the officers encounter the 22-year-old man at the Utah Village Motel, 271 W. 900 South, just after 2 a.m. The officers had been in the area responding to a report of an armed robbery.
One officer yells, “Show me your hands!” as Palacios-Carbajal runs away.
The officers pursued him for several blocks. The video shows Palacios-Carbajal stumble and fall several times before getting up and continuing to run. Gill said Thursday the officers saw Palacios-Carbajal had something in his hands and confirmed it was a gun after he fell a third time.

Refusing to drop a gun, even picking it up repeatedly is just a stupid thing to do.

alacios-Carbajal fell to the ground, rolled over and attempted to raise the gun. Officers fired again. In all, Iversen and Fortuna fired 34 rounds — both emptying their 17-round magazines.

Even after he was shot, he wanted to shoot some police.

"Frankly, the press conference this morning sounded more like a defense, criminal argument than it did a district attorney looking to protect the citizens of Salt Lake City and the surrounding areas,”

The citizens of Salt Lake City and the surrounding areas are protected by having that armed robber taken out of circulation. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

Six state legislators, who identify as racial or ethnic minorities, released a statement Thursday saying they continue to have “grave concerns” about Palacios-Carbajal’s death, but recognize prosecutors are operating under a restrictive law, ones that make “it highly unlikely that police officer-involved shootings are ever criminally prosecuted, even if they unjustifiably use deadly force.”

These legislators want want police officers prosecuted even if they justifiably use deadly force. This piece of shit robbed a man, had a gun, refused to drop it and paid for it with his life. A good shoot.

Another article giving details about the armed robbery:
Use of deadly force against Bernardo Palacios-Carbajal ruled justified

At about 2 a.m. on May 23, SLCPD officers were dispatched to the Utah Village Motel at 271 W. 900 South on a report that a man had pointed a gun at individuals and made threats. When officers arrived, they located Palacios, who they believed was the suspect. Police say he ran, leading to a foot pursuit with three officers.
Palacios was also suspected of robbing a man at gunpoint that night as the victim left a nearby strip club. Officers later found the victim's ID and $1 bills that he planned to use at the club on Palacios.

Real upstanding young man, he.
As the Salt Lake Tribune of the Plebs pontificates,

They want the two officers who shot Palacios-Carbajal, Neil Iversen and Kevin Fortuna, to face consequences. And they want to make sure that mothers like Lucy Carbajal won’t have to experience the pain that she feels now.
With Palacios-Carbajal gone, his mother not only lost her son, but her live-in nurse, the one who gave her gentle but persistent reminders to take her medicine, who filled their home with art and laughter.
Without him, the house is too quiet.
“It’s not a correct decision that [District Attorney Sim Gill] made, and we will continue fighting,” Lucy Carbajal said in Spanish, as she wept during a news conference Thursday. “And even though my son isn’t here, he gives us the right to continue fighting so mothers like me do not lose their sons, like they killed my son. That was cowardice.”

World's smallest violin, playing just for Lucy Carbajal.
He was a piece of shit armed robber who refused to drop his gun when police found him. Him taking care of his mother changes nothing.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Six state legislators, who identify as racial or ethnic minorities, released a statement Thursday saying they continue to have “grave concerns” about Palacios-Carbajal’s death, but recognize prosecutors are operating under a restrictive law, ones that make “it highly unlikely that police officer-involved shootings are ever criminally prosecuted, even if they unjustifiably use deadly force.”

These legislators want want police officers prosecuted even if they justifiably use deadly force.

At issue is what is justified. In a world where Sonia Sotomayor and Clarence Thomas join together and say we need to take another look at this imbalance of justice that we, the Supreme Court created, we should all take notice. We should all want answers and change to laws that are nearly an absolute shield for law enforcement to use whatever force they desire.

The unexplained decision to not do just that is what is so befuddling. Why are they leaving to Congress, their mess?

 

[laughing dog]

Ho hum - another boring rant about the BLM and other groups protesting about a person of color killed by the police with the "appropriate context"/smear of the victim.

It ought to obvious to anyone that the police (as an institution) are no longer trusted by a large segment of the population, so that the fact the police claim something is "justified" is not trusted. The real issues here are trust and accountability.

 

[Jarhyn]

The only context necessary is bodies on the ground. Much like I keep saying, this is all the more reason that people in charge of law and order and peace in society should not be more ready to shoot someone than an actual soldier.

 

[Derec]

At issue is what is justified.

It seems pretty clear that this shooting is perfectly justified. The perp robbed somebody, then ran with a gun and refused to drop it. He was clearly a threat.

In a world where Sonia Sotomayor and Clarence Thomas join together and say we need to take another look at this imbalance of justice that we, the Supreme Court created, we should all take notice.

What particular case do you have in mind?

We should all want answers and change to laws that are nearly an absolute shield for law enforcement to use whatever force they desire.

Except that no state in the Union has laws that are " nearly an absolute shield for law enforcement to use whatever force they desire". For one, there is Tennessee vs. Garner which restricts when police may use lethal force against fleeing suspects. That standard was clearly met here.

The unexplained decision to not do just that is what is so befuddling. Why are they leaving to Congress, their mess?

1. Note the "qualified" in "qualified immunity". The immunity is limited, hardly absolute.
2. It would be good to have a law to clarify the issue, don't you think?

In any case, what are your thoughts about this particular case?

 

[Derec]

Ho hum - another boring rant about the BLM and other groups protesting about a person of color killed by the police with the "appropriate context"/smear of the victim.

Giving the facts of the case and the context of the situation is not "smearing the victim". First of all, BPC is the perp, not the victim. Victims are the people he robbed.
And if you find it boring, more on to one of the threads you find more exciting.

It ought to obvious to anyone that the police (as an institution) are no longer trusted by a large segment of the population,

Mainstream media's treatment of these issues is a big reason for it. Not police defending themselves and others against armed felons.

so that the fact the police claim something is "justified" is not trusted.

It was a determination by the DA, not a mere claim by the police.

The real issues here are trust and accountability.

No, the real issue is that these people don't look at facts and instead automatically side with the thugs and against the police.

 

[Derec]

The only context necessary is bodies on the ground.

So you admit that you, just like these rioters, do not care about facts of the case. You don't care that the guy was armed with a firearm, refused to drop it as ordered multiple times, and even raised the firearm to shoot after he was already shot but alive.

Much like I keep saying, this is all the more reason that people in charge of law and order and peace in society should not be more ready to shoot someone than an actual soldier.

How do you propose police deal with armed thugs who refuse to drop their gun? Let them go?

 

[Jarhyn]

The only context necessary is bodies on the ground.

So you admit that you, just like these rioters, do not care about facts of the case. You don't care that the guy was armed with a firearm, refused to drop it as ordered multiple times, and even raised the firearm to shoot after he was already shot but alive.

Much like I keep saying, this is all the more reason that people in charge of law and order and peace in society should not be more ready to shoot someone than an actual soldier.

How do you propose police deal with armed thugs who refuse to drop their gun? Let them go?

I propose not shooting people until they have first shot at you. Could a cop die? Maybe. But they are supposed to be professionals. Them taking that risk is why they ought get respected. If they don't take that risk, they are just trigger happy thugs.

 

[TSwizzle]

Police shot at Palacios 34 times, striking him at least 12 times, as he ran away from them after they responded to reports of a man threatening people with a gun in the early morning hours of May 23.

This is something of concern. I'd like to see the video evidence.

 

[Derec]

Anti-police protesters don't care about facts: Jacksonville/Tallahassee edition

Jacksonville protests for former FAMU student killed by police spill over into Tallahassee

Dozens of protesters marched through downtown Tallahassee Thursday afternoon, beginning at Cascades Park and headed to the Capitol.

Fists in the air, waving signs declaring "Black Lives Matter," they carried large photos of Jamee Johnson, a former FAMU student who was shot and killed by an officer with the Jacksonville Sheriff's Department late last year. The group chanted, "Say his name! Jamee Johnson!" as they put a stop to traffic.

"The cops who killed him aren't being held accountable," said Roman Le, 17, a board member for Dream Defenders Tallahassee, the youngest local protest organizer.

As idiotic as these people are, at least they are more peaceful than the creeps in SLC.

Why do I think they are idiotic? Because Jameee Johnson was another one who is solely responsible for getting himself shot.

The State Attorney’s Office said although the interaction between Garriga and Johnson isn’t completely caught on camera, the footage that is available corroborates Garriga’s statement.

The video shows Johnson, a 22-year-old with no criminal history according to the State Attorney’s Office, lunging back into his car where he had a gun during a traffic stop. After Garriga shoots him during a struggle, Johnson is seen on the ground begging for help while officers waited at least two minutes for backup before rendering any aid.

The reason the interaction is not completely caught on camera is because JJ pushed the police officer knocking his camera off.

More details, including part of the video until the shooting itself:
Prosecutor: Jacksonville officer justified in 2019 deadly shooting of 22-year-old

The officer then tells Johnson he will escort him to the patrol car while he gets the receipt for the firearm. Soon after, for some unknown reason, Johnson can be seen pulling away and diving headfirst into his car as Garriga dives into the car behind him and the officer’s body camera gets knocked off its mount, falling to the ground.

“I was in immediate fear he was attempting to retrieve his firearm,” Garriga said in a statement.

Another officer’s body camera captured what happened next. The footage shows Johnson’s right foot pressing down on the accelerator and the car crashing through a fence into a nearby yard.

In his statement, Garriga explained what happened after the car crashed.

“The suspect began lifting the firearm in the direction of my face. In fear of being shot in the face or upper torso, I attempted to conceal my face behind the suspect’s head to prevent from being shot,” he said.

Garriga detailed in the statement what happened as the tussle continued.

“I was able to grab the right wrist of the driver, which the handgun was still in, and was able to push myself out of the vehicle. As I exited, I observed the suspect moving his body in my direction and I believe he still had the gun in his possession. Fearing for my life I fired my issued firearm at the suspect until he was no longer a threat,” he said.

Full video here, along with additional information such as that felony quantities of marijuana (200g) were found in the car, along with a scale. So he was a dealer, which explains why he did not want his vehicle searched and why he tried to shoot it out with police instead.


Protesters would have a much better point if they did not randomly protest against justified shootings.

 

[Derec]

Police shot at Palacios 34 times, striking him at least 12 times, as he ran away from them after they responded to reports of a man threatening people with a gun in the early morning hours of May 23.

This is something of concern. I'd like to see the video evidence.

Just because he was running away does not mean he was not a threat to police and others. Note that had BPC simply left the gun on the ground when he dropped it, he would have been fine. But the dubass had to pick it up. smfh.

You can see the video here. Not nearly as good or informative as the Jamee Johnson video, mostly because it is dark and also because most of it is running and camera is shaky af.

 

[Derec]

I propose not shooting people until they have first shot at you.

That's a bullshit standard. Police should not allow thugs to have the first shot.
You want the deck to be stacked to the advantage of violent criminals.

Could a cop die? Maybe.

There almost certainly would be more dead police officers. But that's what #BLM wants anyway.



However, it would also result in more dead innocent civilians by letting more violent thugs escape.

But they are supposed to be professionals.

That does not mean they should let thugs take a shot at them first before they are allowed to use deadly force.

Them taking that risk is why they ought get respected. If they don't take that risk, they are just trigger happy thugs.

Police officers are already taking risks. That does not mean they should be required to take unreasonable levels of risk by allowing thugs to shoot first.

 

[TSwizzle]

Just because he was running away does not mean he was not a threat to police and others.

He was not much of a threat as he was running AWAY from the police, i.e. away from danger. He was clearly running out of steam and probably did not have the strength to run much further. He could barely pick himself up after he fell. And then after he had been shot and was down, several more shots were fired into him.

How you justify this shit is beyond me.

Note that had BPC simply left the gun on the ground when he dropped it, he would have been fine. But the dubass had to pick it up. smfh.

Not that had the police let the dumb ass keep going he would most likely have collapsed and given up.

 

[laughing dog]

Giving the facts of the case and the context of the situation is not "smearing the victim". First of all, BPC is the perp, not the victim. Victims are the people he robbed.

BPC is a victim of a shooting - he was killed. There was no report that he was aiming his firearm at anyone. It is either counterfactual to deny he was a victim or a lack of knowledge of the English language.

Mainstream media's treatment of these issues is a big reason for it. Not police defending themselves and others against armed felons.

Riiight, because people really have no idea about their worlds and their experiences.

It was a determination by the DA, not a mere claim by the police.

And DAs that have to work with police have a conflict of interest.

No, the real issue is that these people don't look at facts and instead automatically side with the thugs and against the police.

Compared to the people who don't look at the facts while they mindlessly defend the police?

 

[Derec]

He was not much of a threat as he was running AWAY from the police, i.e. away from danger.

One can shoot backwards while running, but you can't do much aiming. One can turn around momentarily to shoot more accurately as well. It's silly to say that he posed no threat.

He was clearly running out of steam and probably did not have the strength to run much further.

That makes him MORE dangerous, not less. Like a cornered animal, he was more likely to try something stupid

He could barely pick himself up after he fell.

And yet he made sure he picked up the gun. How you justify him doing that is beyond me.

And then after he had been shot and was down, several more shots were fired into him.

It's not clear on the video, but what I have read is that after he was initially shot and was on the ground, he raised his gun as if to shoot.

From here.


Cornered animal became wounded animal. Both very dangerous, especially when armed with a firearm!

How you justify this shit is beyond me.

How you can defend scum like BPC is beyond me.

Not that had the police let the dumb ass keep going he would most likely have collapsed and given up.

Or more likely tried to shoot it out. Grabbing that gun was very important to him, that he sacrificed precious running away time to stop and pick it up.

 

[Derec]

BPC is a victim of a shooting - he was killed. There was no report that he was aiming his firearm at anyone.

Actually there are plenty of reports that he pointed his gun at people - the robbery victims as well as police.

It is either counterfactual to deny he was a victim or a lack of knowledge of the English language.

I do not consider perps that get themselves shot by police "victims". In the most broad sense, you could argue that he was a "victim" but he certainly was no crime victim, which is the most common context for the use of that word.

Riiight, because people really have no idea about their worlds and their experiences.

Often they do not. Do you really think these "protesters" are not affected by propaganda?

And DAs that have to work with police have a conflict of interest.

So what is your solution? Charging decisions by angry violent mob?

Compared to the people who don't look at the facts while they mindlessly defend the police?

I look at the facts. This shooting (as well as the Jacksonville one) were justified.

 

[TSwizzle]

One can shoot backwards while running. One can turn around momentarily to shoot as well. It's silly to say that he posed no threat.

He could barely put one foot in front of the other or stand up straight and you claim he could turn round and shoot at someone ?! FFS, pitiful.

That makes him MORE dangerous, not less. Like a cornered animal, he was more likely to try something stupid

That's how you seem him, right ? Just an animal, vermin that should be shot in the street.

You pick the oddest battles.

 

[laughing dog]

Actually there are plenty of reports that he pointed his gun at people - the robbery victims as well as police.

He pointed his gun at his robbery victims. There was no report about him pointing at the police - he was attempting to pick it up.

I do not consider perps that get themselves shot by police "victims". In the most broad sense, you could argue that he was a "victim" but he certainly was no crime victim, which is the most common context for the use of that word.

According to the common meaning of "victim" (a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action), he was a victim.

Often they do not. Do you really think these "protesters" are not affected by propaganda?

No more than you are. BTW, do you live in Salt Lake City, Utah? Do you have any idea what the community and police relations are like in Salt Lake City?

So what is your solution?

I think an independent investigation by an outside agency is the best way to regain trust.

I look at the facts. This shooting (as well as the Jacksonville one) were justified.

You swallow the police reports without thinking, especially when the victim is a person of color.

Whether the shooting is justified by an independent onlooker is irrelevant to the clear loss of trust (deserved or not) in the police. That is what is driving these protests.

 

[Derec]

He could barely put one foot in front of the other or stand up straight and you claim he could turn round and shoot at someone ?! FFS, pitiful.

It takes far less energy to shoot than to continue running. He certainly had no intention of giving up, which is why he made sure to pick up the gun when he dropped it.

That's how you seem him, right ? Just an animal, vermin that should be shot in the street.

News flash: human beings are animals. And especially in stressful situations, like being cornered or wounded, we tend to act on that animal instinct.

You pick the oddest battles.

I could say the same thing to you. If BCP wanted to give up because he was exhausted from running a couple of blocks (he was 22, why such low stamina?) all he had to do was not pick up the dropped gun and raise his hands and surrender. But he didn't want to go to jail, so he went to the morgue instead. That was his choice. The police officers should not have to suffer consequences because of BPC's choices just because an angry, violent mob demands it.

Speaking of which, whatever you think of BPC himself, what do you think about the violent protesters wilding in SLC?

 

[Derec]

He pointed his gun at his robbery victims. There was no report about him pointing at the police

It's in the DA's report, for fuck's sake!

- he was attempting to pick it up.

He did that too, and not only attempt - he successfully picked it up.

According to the common meaning of "victim" (a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action), he was a victim.

As I said, using the most broad sense of the word yes. But in the context of a criminal investigation, it is misleading as in this context "victim" refers to victims of a crime. Which BPC wasn't.

No more than you are. BTW, do you live in Salt Lake City, Utah? Do you have any idea what the community and police relations are like in Salt Lake City?

I do not. Do you? And these relations are irrelevant to the question of whether the shooting was justified.

I think an independent investigation by an outside agency is the best way to regain trust.

If the case was controversial, I'd say good idea. But the perp was armed and refused to drop it. Therefore there is no need.
We need to get away from the idea that an angry violent mob should dictate official actions or affect investigations.

You swallow the police reports without thinking, especially when the victim is a person of color.

What makes him a "person of color"? Why is he entitled to the privileged "person of color" status but George Zimmerman was dismissed as "white" by the media and activists?

Whether the shooting is justified by an independent onlooker is irrelevant to the clear loss of trust (deserved or not) in the police. That is what is driving these protests.

So you admit that whether a shooting is justified matters not one but to the anti-police rioters. They just hate police.