Any serious and popular science forum website?

[Speakpigeon]

I'm looking for a serious and popular science forum website...

I just tried Physics Forum (https://www.physicsforums.com/) but they banned me after only three posts for allegedly breaking some rule.

Reason given: "no defined end of debate"!

You may be able to look at the posts to see for yourself how justified that may have been.

As far as I can see, one of the ayatollahs there had a breakdown upon seeing me using the word "usefulness" in relation to formal logic. According to this very bright individual, asking about the usefulness of logic is to irredeemably cross the line into philosophy territory, a definite no-no over there.

So, I'm looking for an alternative...
Thanks,
EB

Reference
Here is the offending post for those interested. It's in the sub-forum "Set Theory, Logic, Probability, Statistics Forum" (https://www.physicsforums.com/forums/set-theory-logic-probability-statistics.78/):

What is the usefulness of formal logic theory?
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/what-is-the-usefulness-of-formal-logic-theory.946583/

What exactly is the usefulness of formal logic theory?

And how much useful is it?

I believe that most of us have an intuitive sense of logic, which has to be very useful throughout our lives and just about for every situation we can think of. Given that, I came to wonder what more does formal logic specifically brings to the table?

Obviously, having a formal language to express the more complicated logical relations is very useful, even necessary nowadays with the development of technology and science, but beyond instances of using the formalism of formal logic, could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world? Something useful!

And I would exclude from that maths research, not because I think it's hopelessly useless, but because I need to understand how logic theory is useful and I need to understand that here and now. So, using logic theory to help with applied maths would be OK, too. That is, if logic theory is used to sort out a maths problem meant to model some real-world situation, in which case logic theory would be useful to help with useful maths, and that would be obviously useful.

I'm really only interested in First Order Logic, but Second Order examples should also be of interest.
Thanks,
EB

Here is the reply from the chief ayatollah there:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/what-is-the-usefulness-of-formal-logic-theory.946583/

I have severe problems with what you call useful. This is a short sighted and highly subjective term which hasn't any scientific relevance. Take the zero, e.g. Why did people start to count something, which isn't there? That's why I consider the word useful as a biased, purely rhetoric term without any substance, except to start a fruitless dispute. What you call useful logic, is merely one possible logic system. The usefulness of all other, and there are various, is restricted by our current limitation, not by the number of potential alternatives. But even the predicate logic in use appears quite often rather alienated, esp. in interviews of politicians.

So logic is important, because it measures scientific fields and helps to distinguish between valid and absurd theories. Same as the meter is.

This discussion is already philosophy, because it basically asks about the usefulness of science - logic is just a placeholder here. A sujet, which has been discussed before, on PF as well, please make a forums search, and probably will be discussed on many other occasions and places. There is no final answer to this by the setting of the question, and any answer heavily depends on personal scales.

So if you don't have a specific source from a valid scientific publication, in which case you're invited to send me a PM with a reference, this thread is closed. Reason: no defined end of debate.

And my introduction:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/hi-think-therefore-hi-am-an-introduction-to-descartes.946579/

Hi everybody!
I'm French and live in the Macronian world of Paris. I'm a bit retired to be honest but I'm actually trying to do something useful. And, usefulness will indeed be the point of my first (real) post here. So, watch out!

Like all of you, I'm essentially interested in life, but I also spend time thinking about 'philosophical' issues, like the hard problem of consciousness (hey, I can hear you cringe, you know!) , and also about logic. I did two years in maths and physics at the university here in Paris, which was unfortunately a very long time ago, and I had a class on logic at the time. Well, I got interested there and then. For the rest of my life! So, going into retirement, I thought I would revisit the subject. So, I'm working on that, if 'working' is at all the right term for what I'm doing. I may have a few posts on other sciency things but, essentially, it should be about logic. And, yes, usefulness.

After two years, I had to give up on the idea of becoming a scientist. Too bad, that. So, I'm not going to pretend I have any expertise on any scientific issue. I try to keep an eye on what you guys are doing but it's gone way beyond the layman's ability to keep up and understand, this stuff. And maybe I'll have a few posts on that as well.

Ah, I almost forgot. Why a Descartes avatar? Very simple. I take the Cogito to be a beautifully apt expression of the only thing I know. I even wonder how René could have guessed that about me! So, all the rest, I can only believe.

Still, I'm not here to discuss what I do or don't know, so you should all be safe from that at least.

Well, that will be all for now, folks. See you 'round here!
EB

 

[bigfield]

Looks like you went to a science forum to discuss philosophy despite the fact that they expressly forbid that sort of subject matter.

Next you could try starting a thread on https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience or https://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceDiscussion and see if get past the moderators.

 

[barbos]

Reminded me a "discussion" with a pretty dim FSB officer about usefulness of Higgs boson I once had. He was surprised when I told him it has no military application and honestly could not understand why people studying it then. Questions about "Usefullness" are incredibly annoying and you should have known it.

Also, scientists (mathematicians included) really hate pure philosophy for their tendency to ask such annoying questions and question (ironically) usefulness of philosophy itself.

 

[skepticalbip]

Any serious and popular science forum website?

It looks like you found one of the popular "serious science" forums (one that I enjoy). The discussions there are discussions into "serious science" topics. The topic you introduced looks like it would be more suited in: https://thephilosophyforum.com/ where I imagine it could spur a fair amount of comment.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Looks like you went to a science forum to discuss philosophy

Given that my specific question to them was "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?", could you please try to justify your view here from what I said in my post?
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

The discussions there are discussions into "serious science" topics. The topic you introduced looks like it would be more suited in: https://thephilosophyforum.com/ where I imagine it could spur a fair amount of comment.

Here is just one post that went through:

B What question should you ask?
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/what-question-should-you-ask.944989/

I saw this problem in Wikipedia in my native language.

The problem goes as follows

You are detained and there are two doors in front of you, one leads to death and the other to freedom. Each door is guarded by one deputy. One of the deputies always makes false statements while the other always makes true statements. You can ask just one question to just one of the deputies (in order to know what door is the one you want to go through). What should you ask?

I did the following: as one deputy will always make false statements and the other always true statements, I can ask any one out to choose one of these options:

(a) I'm a chicken; this door leads to death.
(b) I'm a chicken; this door leads to freedom.
(c) I'm a human; this door leads to death.
(d) I'm a human; this door leads to freedom.

I choose any one deputy to ask this question and if he chooses (a) or (b) then it's the liar, therefore if he chooses, say, (a) we know that the door leads to freedom... the same reasoning holds for the two bottom options... and in this way I can know what door leads to freedom and what leads to death. Does this solution sounds logic?

I fail to see where my post would be somehow more "philosophical".

Given that my specific question to them was "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?", could you try to justify your perspective?
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Hmm. That's what I thought.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

And from he same...

Last Friday, at 9:59 AM

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/a-couple-of-links-about-not-from-science.946594/

We repeatedly receive some fundamental questions, some of them of philosophical nature, which we're not very keen to answer - not because they weren't legitimate questions, but because we made the experience, that they simply lead nowhere, and, I'll have to admit, because of the lack of knowledge what philosophers already had written about it. To some of those questions there are valuable contributions from other people available, which we often quote, and which should be read, seen or listened to at first. So I thought I'd create a thread, which gathers those links. Thus I'll have a single thread to look up the links, as well as a good recommendation for those, who haven't seen them, yet.

My introduction post came the same Friday at 1:04 PM.
EB

 

[skepticalbip]

The discussions there are discussions into "serious science" topics. The topic you introduced looks like it would be more suited in: https://thephilosophyforum.com/ where I imagine it could spur a fair amount of comment.

Here is just one post that went through:

B What question should you ask?
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/what-question-should-you-ask.944989/

I saw this problem in Wikipedia in my native language.

The problem goes as follows

You are detained and there are two doors in front of you, one leads to death and the other to freedom. Each door is guarded by one deputy. One of the deputies always makes false statements while the other always makes true statements. You can ask just one question to just one of the deputies (in order to know what door is the one you want to go through). What should you ask?

I did the following: as one deputy will always make false statements and the other always true statements, I can ask any one out to choose one of these options:

(a) I'm a chicken; this door leads to death.
(b) I'm a chicken; this door leads to freedom.
(c) I'm a human; this door leads to death.
(d) I'm a human; this door leads to freedom.

I choose any one deputy to ask this question and if he chooses (a) or (b) then it's the liar, therefore if he chooses, say, (a) we know that the door leads to freedom... the same reasoning holds for the two bottom options... and in this way I can know what door leads to freedom and what leads to death. Does this solution sounds logic?

I fail to see where my post would be somehow more "philosophical".

Given that my specific question to them was "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?", could you try to justify your perspective?
EB

The question is philosophical in the sense that it appears to address a concern of a philosophical nature, whether through a naivety of science methodology or just seeking a "philosophical" argument. Logic is a given in "serious science" and well understood by those concerned with "serious science" so not really discussed because it is so well understood and accepted.

For example: theories are mathematical models. The mathematical equations are basically logic syllogisms, the "knowns" being the premises. In determining orbitals, the masses and distances (the knowns or premises) are plugged into the equations and they lead to the the speeds and description of predicted paths (the logical conclusions).

You could look at science as the practice of applied logic only adding rigorous testing of the conclusions to insure they (and often, the premises) are valid.

 

[steve_bank]

Years back I was on a site called Bad Astronomy. Content was moderated, no leeway for aimless repititious discussion.

This site is informal, like lunchtime conversation with some more serious than others.

If you are looking for seriious philosophy go to a serious philosophy site. As the saying goes, be careful what you ask for...you might get it.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Here is just one post that went through:



I fail to see where my post would be somehow more "philosophical".

Given that my specific question to them was "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?", could you try to justify your perspective?
EB

The question is philosophical in the sense that it appears to address a concern of a philosophical nature, whether through a naivety of science methodology or just seeking a "philosophical" argument. Logic is a given in "serious science" and well understood by those concerned with "serious science" so not really discussed because it is so well understood and accepted.

For example: theories are mathematical models. The mathematical equations are basically logic syllogisms, the "knowns" being the premises. In determining orbitals, the masses and distances (the knowns or premises) are plugged into the equations and they lead to the the speeds and description of predicted paths (the logical conclusions).

You could look at science as the practice of applied logic only adding rigorous testing of the conclusions to insure they (and often, the premises) are valid.

Sorry but I still don't see what's in any way philosophical in my question: "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?"

Either you have such examples or you don't but that wouldn't have gone into any endless argument as alleged by the website.

And I explained very carefully that I thought nobody really needed any training of the theory of formal logic to be able to practice maths or science efficiently. Intuitive notions seem good enough to me. I guess you seem to be confirming my view here.

Still, what I wanted was just a few specific examples of application of the theory beyond the obvious "premises-conclusion" routine. What's philosophical about that?
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Years back I was on a site called Bad Astronomy. Content was moderated, no leeway for aimless repititious discussion.

This site is informal, like lunchtime conversation with some more serious than others.

If you are looking for seriious philosophy go to a serious philosophy site. As the saying goes, be careful what you ask for...you might get it.

Again, you would need to explain how my question "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?" could be construed as in any way philosophical.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Looks like you went to a science forum to discuss philosophy despite the fact that they expressly forbid that sort of subject matter.

You would need to explain yourself here.
EB

 

[skepticalbip]

Here is just one post that went through:



I fail to see where my post would be somehow more "philosophical".

Given that my specific question to them was "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?", could you try to justify your perspective?
EB

The question is philosophical in the sense that it appears to address a concern of a philosophical nature, whether through a naivety of science methodology or just seeking a "philosophical" argument. Logic is a given in "serious science" and well understood by those concerned with "serious science" so not really discussed because it is so well understood and accepted.

For example: theories are mathematical models. The mathematical equations are basically logic syllogisms, the "knowns" being the premises. In determining orbitals, the masses and distances (the knowns or premises) are plugged into the equations and they lead to the the speeds and description of predicted paths (the logical conclusions).

You could look at science as the practice of applied logic only adding rigorous testing of the conclusions to insure they (and often, the premises) are valid.

Sorry but I still don't see what's in any way philosophical in my question: "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?"

Either you have such examples or you don't but that wouldn't have gone into any endless argument as alleged by the website.

And I explained very carefully that I thought nobody really needed any training of the theory of formal logic to be able to practice maths or science efficiently. Intuitive notions seem good enough to me. I guess you seem to be confirming my view here.

Still, what I wanted was just a few specific examples of application of the theory beyond the obvious "premises-conclusion" routine. What's philosophical about that?
EB

This is apparently an excellent example showing that the administrator was correct in their evaluation. Your question has nothing to do with a discussion of "serious science" which is what that site is dedicated to. As I said in my previous post, "The question is philosophical in the sense that it appears to address a concern of a philosophical nature, whether through a naivety of science methodology or just seeking a "philosophical" argument."

Perhaps, if you could give the administrator a demonstrable example (scientific not philosophical) of how "formal logic theory" (as opposed to basic logic) can solve current outstanding scientific problems (e.g. dark energy) then they may reconsider.

 

[steve_bank]

Years back I was on a site called Bad Astronomy. Content was moderated, no leeway for aimless repititious discussion.

This site is informal, like lunchtime conversation with some more serious than others.

If you are looking for seriious philosophy go to a serious philosophy site. As the saying goes, be careful what you ask for...you might get it.

I do not know what you nean by forma; logic beyond the symbols used.

Again, you would need to explain how my question "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?" could be construed as in any way philosophical.
EB

Logic is logic.

In electronics we call logic Boolean Algebra. I believe in math it is Abstract Algebra.

Sometimes an engineering debate comes down to setting up syllogisms.

In one case I had to analyze a complex technical contract to write a proposal. To get my arms around it I reduced it to symbolic Boolean logic to make sure I had all the dependencies covered.

Things you may think are profound are really common. Electronic technicians in trade school and community college cover symbolic logic as Boolean logic or Boolean Algebra. I first learned it in Navy schools.


The problem with studying philosophy in isolation is not knowing what everybody else is doing.

You say formal I say symbolic logic.

Logic is everywhere in language with different names....and, or, not, if then else, or ... and so on.

Search on Boolean Logic.

 

[steve_bank]

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-boolean-algebra-and-abstract-algebra

Logic functions can be implemented in Abstract Algebra.

" Abstract Algebra is the general study of sets with (usually) binary operations (also called algebraic structures). These algebraic structures include (but are not limited to) groups, rings, fields, lattices, modules, Heyting algebras and Boolean algebras. That is, Boolean algebras are a particular class of algebraic structures that are studied in the field of abstract algebra. Boolean algebras, are particularly useful in logic since logical propositions (up to logical equivalence) form a Boolean algebra. This is similar to how vector spaces are important in studying Euclidean geometry or rings in studying algebraic geometry and number theory. "

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/boolean/bool_6.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_logic_symbo

Electronics symbolic logic
https://www.electrical-symbols.com/electric-electronic-symbols/digital-electronics-symbols.htm

Formal Logic within philosopy appears a bit limited, but as I said it is used in daily speech without identifying it as such. Math-computer science and electronics is where logic theories reside.
http://mtnmath.com/whatth/node20.html

" Formal logic is a set of rules for making deductions that seem self evident. Syllogisms like the following occur in every day conversation.

All humans are mortal.
Socrates is a human.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.
Mathematical logic formalizes such deductions with rules precise enough to program a computer to decide if an argument is valid. "

appears a bot limied in cope.

Does this answer the OP question for you?

 

[Speakpigeon]

Sorry but I still don't see what's in any way philosophical in my question: "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?"

Either you have such examples or you don't but that wouldn't have gone into any endless argument as alleged by the website.

And I explained very carefully that I thought nobody really needed any training of the theory of formal logic to be able to practice maths or science efficiently. Intuitive notions seem good enough to me. I guess you seem to be confirming my view here.

Still, what I wanted was just a few specific examples of application of the theory beyond the obvious "premises-conclusion" routine. What's philosophical about that?
EB

This is apparently an excellent example showing that the administrator was correct in their evaluation. Your question has nothing to do with a discussion of "serious science" which is what that site is dedicated to. As I said in my previous post, "The question is philosophical in the sense that it appears to address a concern of a philosophical nature, whether through a naivety of science methodology or just seeking a "philosophical" argument."

Sorry but you're merely reasserting the same opinion without providing any justification whatsoever.

How about this question: could anybody give practical examples of using a formal mathematical theory to solve a problem in the real world?

Would that be a philosophical question too?

Perhaps, if you could give the administrator a demonstrable example (scientific not philosophical) of how "formal logic theory" (as opposed to basic logic) can solve current outstanding scientific problems (e.g. dark energy) then they may reconsider.

I don't know of any example. As far as I can see, the whole of mathematics and science (and technology, and all we do in life) has been done using our intuitive sense of logic. But maybe I'm wrong, which is why I try to ask the specialists.

The question is very simple. Either you have one example and you exhibit it or you don't and you say so and it's the end of the question. Why is that such a problem? Beats me!
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Years back I was on a site called Bad Astronomy. Content was moderated, no leeway for aimless repititious discussion.

This site is informal, like lunchtime conversation with some more serious than others.

If you are looking for seriious philosophy go to a serious philosophy site. As the saying goes, be careful what you ask for...you might get it.

I do not know what you nean by forma; logic beyond the symbols used.

Again, you would need to explain how my question "could anybody give practical examples of using formal logic theory to solve a problem in the real world?" could be construed as in any way philosophical.
EB

Logic is logic.

In electronics we call logic Boolean Algebra. I believe in math it is Abstract Algebra.

Sometimes an engineering debate comes down to setting up syllogisms.

In one case I had to analyze a complex technical contract to write a proposal. To get my arms around it I reduced it to symbolic Boolean logic to make sure I had all the dependencies covered.

Sure, I've been explicit that I saw that to be routine practice. Read again my post on Physics Forums. It's made cristal clear.

Things you may think are profound are really common. Electronic technicians in trade school and community college cover symbolic logic as Boolean logic or Boolean Algebra. I first learned it in Navy schools.

What in my posts suggested to you I was looking for a discussion on some "profound" question? I asked for examples of what people did! What's "profound" about that?

The problem with studying philosophy in isolation is not knowing what everybody else is doing.

You say formal I say symbolic logic.

Logic is everywhere in language with different names....and, or, not, if then else, or ... and so on.

Search on Boolean Logic.

Sorry, Sir, but you seem to have missed the point entirely. By something like a thousand miles.

Thanks anyway for trying.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-boolean-algebra-and-abstract-algebra

Logic functions can be implemented in Abstract Algebra.

" Abstract Algebra is the general study of sets with (usually) binary operations (also called algebraic structures). These algebraic structures include (but are not limited to) groups, rings, fields, lattices, modules, Heyting algebras and Boolean algebras. That is, Boolean algebras are a particular class of algebraic structures that are studied in the field of abstract algebra. Boolean algebras, are particularly useful in logic since logical propositions (up to logical equivalence) form a Boolean algebra. This is similar to how vector spaces are important in studying Euclidean geometry or rings in studying algebraic geometry and number theory. "

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/boolean/bool_6.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_logic_symbo

Electronics symbolic logic
https://www.electrical-symbols.com/electric-electronic-symbols/digital-electronics-symbols.htm

Formal Logic within philosopy appears a bit limited, but as I said it is used in daily speech without identifying it as such. Math-computer science and electronics is where logic theories reside.
http://mtnmath.com/whatth/node20.html

" Formal logic is a set of rules for making deductions that seem self evident. Syllogisms like the following occur in every day conversation.

All humans are mortal.
Socrates is a human.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.
Mathematical logic formalizes such deductions with rules precise enough to program a computer to decide if an argument is valid. "

appears a bot limied in cope.

Does this answer the OP question for you?

No. This is besides the point.

It just shows you wouldn't have any example of the use of the theory of formal logic in the sciences or anywhere.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

I have to add that I had the time to start a second thread (since my first was closed) and the same subject.

I think I made it cristal clear there that it wasn't at all a philosophical question.

Here are my two posts in this thread:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/logic-science.946601/
I'm working on a research project on logic and would be interested in real examples of the use of the theory of formal logic for any scientific or technological research. I'm well aware that logic, to begin with our intuitive sense of logic, is necessary to just about everything we do in life and especially in the sciences and in the industry. My interest is in actual examples of the specific use of the theory rather than the mere formalism of modern logic.
Thanks.
EB

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/logic-science.946601/
Yes, for mathematics and computers. And as I said, I'm entirely convinced we use logic all the time, competently or not, in just about everything we do. However, as you suggest here, we can go a very long way merely using our intuitive sense of logic, provided we also learn the basic vocabulary and language of logic, like "conjunction" etc. My question is about the use of the theory. How much of logic theory, beyond the basic intuitive notions and language, do scientists, among others, need for their fundamental or applied research work, in practical terms?
EB

So, what could possibly be philosophical about that?!
EB