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Communism - what is it?

steve_bank

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For a communist theorist what is commu8nism, what is the goal, and how should it be implemented.

Not just generalities like 'a classless society', how would such a thing be accomplished in a pragmatic practical system.

What form would the political system be, how is leadership selected.

Who defines what is produced.

Who defines compensation.
 
Eutopia. Where human nature is non-existent. Failure to achieve eutopia is just an indication it’s not true communism.
 
Eutopia. Where human nature is non-existent. Failure to achieve eutopia is just an indication it’s not true communism.

I am looking for a communist to define it in practical terms. I have low expectations.
 
There are probably several versions. Human nature doesn't appear to be suited to communism, pooling resources and sharing according to need, beyond small units, immediate family.....perhaps.
 
In terms of what it is, it is the complete elimination of all property. This distinguishes it from the more moderate Socialism in which only the means of production are collectivized. Under communism there is no property at all.

In the utopian versions they envision some sort of anarchy. As if. You'll need a very powerful state to eliminate property and keep it eliminated.
 
Eutopia. Where human nature is non-existent. Failure to achieve eutopia is just an indication it’s not true communism.

I am looking for a communist to define it in practical terms. I have low expectations.

I imagine the most generous definition would be making the country a Kibbutz.

I was thinking about that. In he 70s I went to a predentaion by an Israeli looking for students to summer on a kibutz.
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Didn't sound too bad. His kibbutz had private dwellings, common dining room, amenities like a swimming pool, and a car pool if you needed a car. A picture of someone carrying an assault rifle gave me pause.

I read something about an Israeli 'bak to the kibbutz' movement in reaction to Israel going completely western in economics.

It works up to a point.
 
In terms of what it is, it is the complete elimination of all property. This distinguishes it from the more moderate Socialism in which only the means of production are collectivized. Under communism there is no property at all.

In the utopian versions they envision some sort of anarchy. As if. You'll need a very powerful state to eliminate property and keep it eliminated.

If that is the definition what of socialism, what would you call France and Demark, a hybrid?

My understanding of the popular meaning as used over here is a high degree of social programs and more control of business than we have here. Conservatives routinely call Europe collectively socialist as a pejorative.
 
My understanding of the popular meaning as used over here is a high degree of social programs and more control of business than we have here. Conservatives routinely call Europe collectively socialist as a pejorative.
that's because "over here" in the US the common culture has absolutely no fucking idea whatsoever what socialism or communism are.

it's really really simple, it starts with basic economic structure.
capitalism: resources are acquired privately (either by individuals or by a corporate entity) and used at the discretion of the owner exclusively. allocation of resources acquired by the owner, and the distribution of goods or services created by those resources, are solely the property of the owner.
socialism: resources are acquired collectively (either by a group of individuals or co-op entity) and used as the group decides. allocation of resources acquired by the collective, and the distribution of goods or services created by those resources, are decided by committee.

so there you have it, that's the difference between capitalism and socialism. or more commonly, it's said that in socialism 'the workers own the means of production' - as in a factory would be owned by all the workers of the factory and the profits would go to all of them, instead of a single person owning the factory and hording all the money.
so that's purely about economics, and that's all that 'capitalism' and 'socialism' are really about, is how resources are acquired and distributed.

there is also a cultural and social side to both of those systems, as we've seen implemented in various ways in the world over the last few thousand years.
something like communism is basically just a socialism mirror to what 'free market' is to capitalism - a pipe dream that doesn't actually work because even in small groups humans will just up and fuck off and do their own thing regardless of what the rest are doing, and the bigger the number of people the higher percentage you have doing that, until you hit this critical mass where the entire institution falls apart.

so much like free markets, communism is just a social system that uses one of the two major economic structures. but whereas 'socialism' broadly refers to the concept that there isn't a single owner of resources, communism's whole deal is that the government is the owner of all the resources. that's pretty much the long and short of it, communism is just 'the government owns basically everything and distributes it as needed' - it's a system where individual businesses aren't really a thing.
the idea is that the government will fairly allocate resources to everyone so that everyone is happy and fulfilled insofar as they have a job and they have a place to live and food and access to luxury items, but nobody can really hoard money or leverage that hoarding to exponentially grow more powerful than their neighbors (as rich people do in the US, for instance).

the problem of course is that the government is run by people, and people are corrupt and selfish, so in every instance of communism we've had in action in the world it's just a brutal government regime hoarding all the resources and oppressing the masses, because that is what happens when "the government" owns everything - it's just cronyism and corruption, exactly like you get in any corporation, except it's on a national scale.

so the answer to your question is that there isn't a realistic way to implement communism, because you can't make everyone act fairly and rationally, and there's no viable means to enact laws or enforcement to stifle those who don't conform to the system. anyone who daydreams about communism specifically is just as utterly deluded as the moronic "libertarian" idiots in the US who think "free market capitalism" is a viable economic or social strategy.
 
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If that is the definition what of socialism, what would you call France and Demark, a hybrid?
btw, france and denmark are 100% capitalist, just like the US. there is zero socialism in either of those countries.
the difference is only in what government programs exist and what they use their tax revenue for - which isn't socialism in any way shape or form, except in the stupid manner in which people in the US have no fucking clue what the word socialism means so use it to describe anything that doesn't endorse the unwavering idol worship of any random shitberg with enough 0s in their bank account.
 
If I believed for a second that this question was being asked in good faith, I still wouldn't take the bait because of the liberal piranhas furiously awaiting the taste of blood. If you want to know about communism, why it's important, how to achieve it, and what to do about kulaks burning their grain supplies, there are thousands of resources available that can explain it better than me. All of the important works are available online, most of them for free or for a few dollars.

If you have SPECIFIC questions about SPECIFIC aspects of communism, I may be persuaded to answer some of those, but otherwise the discussion is likely to branch off into so many tangents that it would be impossible to address them all while still keeping my sanity.

Here is what I will say, to start you on your education, if you are actually interested in education and not performative self-righteous scolding:

Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.

-Karl Marx, The German Ideology

There is no answer to the question "under communism, what would x look like," because Marxism is not about predicting a future society in detail, it's about identifying the way current society works so that it can be changed in ways that actually make a difference (all of which is founded upon a theory of development that explains why some changes make a difference and others don't).
 
In terms of what it is, it is the complete elimination of all property. This distinguishes it from the more moderate Socialism in which only the means of production are collectivized. Under communism there is no property at all.

In the utopian versions they envision some sort of anarchy. As if. You'll need a very powerful state to eliminate property and keep it eliminated.

If that is the definition what of socialism, what would you call France and Demark, a hybrid?

My understanding of the popular meaning as used over here is a high degree of social programs and more control of business than we have here. Conservatives routinely call Europe collectively socialist as a pejorative.

Most economies are mixed economies, with varying degrees of various systems. I do not call European economies "socialist", because I know better, but then I'm not a conservative.

Even in the US we have a mixed economy, just like in Europe, but with varying degrees of the different systems.

Many cities have the utilities run by the city. Education is almost entirely run by the government. Those sectors are socialist - using the term without moral judgement.
Many states have highly regulated utilities, with very strict entry requirements and government granted geographic monopolies. Even the ability to raise rates is done by submitting a request to the government regulatory board. Those sectors are fascist - using the term without moral judgement.
It is clear that the monetary system in the USA is Monetarist - Fisher and Friedman.
The federal budget is very influenced by Keynes.
There is also a current of Welfarism, which idiots on both sides mistakenly call socialism.
There is also a current of Corporatism, where we have protections or subsidies for businesses.
Everything else in the economy, which can be most of the economy or can be tiny smidges of what is left over, is Capitalist. It is the state where you don't have government interference or control.
 
...
Many states have highly regulated utilities, with very strict entry requirements and government granted geographic monopolies. Even the ability to raise rates is done by submitting a request to the government regulatory board. Those sectors are fascist - using the term without moral judgement.
...
There is also a current of Corporatism, where we have protections or subsidies for businesses.
...
These two are both corporatism, although it certainly seems accurate to describe the former as fascist corporatism.

Regulation and protection are two sides of the same coin: the government controls the company, and in return guarantees its security. It's like a bureaucratic dom-sub relationship.

However, some sectors enjoy protections and subsidies but aren't subjected to strict controls in return. That's not really corporatism; that's crony capitalism.
 
...
Many states have highly regulated utilities, with very strict entry requirements and government granted geographic monopolies. Even the ability to raise rates is done by submitting a request to the government regulatory board. Those sectors are fascist - using the term without moral judgement.
...
There is also a current of Corporatism, where we have protections or subsidies for businesses.
...
These two are both corporatism, although it certainly seems accurate to describe the former as fascist corporatism.

Regulation and protection are two sides of the same coin: the government controls the company, and in return guarantees its security. It's like a bureaucratic dom-sub relationship.

However, some sectors enjoy protections and subsidies but aren't subjected to strict controls in return. That's not really corporatism; that's crony capitalism.

I know what I wrote, and I separated those deliberately.
 
In terms of what it is, it is the complete elimination of all property. This distinguishes it from the more moderate Socialism in which only the means of production are collectivized. Under communism there is no property at all.

In the utopian versions they envision some sort of anarchy. As if. You'll need a very powerful state to eliminate property and keep it eliminated.

If that is the definition what of socialism, what would you call France and Demark, a hybrid?

My understanding of the popular meaning as used over here is a high degree of social programs and more control of business than we have here. Conservatives routinely call Europe collectively socialist as a pejorative.

Most economies are mixed economies, with varying degrees of various systems. I do not call European economies "socialist", because I know better, but then I'm not a conservative.

Even in the US we have a mixed economy, just like in Europe, but with varying degrees of the different systems.

Many cities have the utilities run by the city. Education is almost entirely run by the government. Those sectors are socialist - using the term without moral judgement.
Many states have highly regulated utilities, with very strict entry requirements and government granted geographic monopolies. Even the ability to raise rates is done by submitting a request to the government regulatory board. Those sectors are fascist - using the term without moral judgement.
It is clear that the monetary system in the USA is Monetarist - Fisher and Friedman.
The federal budget is very influenced by Keynes.
There is also a current of Welfarism, which idiots on both sides mistakenly call socialism.
There is also a current of Corporatism, where we have protections or subsidies for businesses.
Everything else in the economy, which can be most of the economy or can be tiny smidges of what is left over, is Capitalist. It is the state where you don't have government interference or control.

As an alternative to this analysis, which is useless and doesn't predict anything, I will provide the correct analysis.

Human societies need to sustain themselves by making things and consuming what they make. When the productive capacity entered a phase where a surplus could be made and hoarded, class divisions began to emerge in civilization. Classes are groups of people defined by their functional relationship to the means of production, i.e., to the elements that are required to sustain life and meet our wants and needs. The only distinction that matters is ultimately this one. State versus private, rich versus poor, and black versus white are all imperfect and unscientific categories for the purposes of understanding political economy. All that makes an actual difference is class: who hoards the surplus and who creates it, who monopolizes the implements of production and who rents their bodies out to the monopolizers, who establishes colonies in other people's land for resource extraction and who is colonized.

As class divisions emerge, due to the material advances in productive technology, there emerges an apparatus that functions to manage conflicts between the classes by the use of coercion. This is called a state. The phases of production in human societies were all accompanied by a state that made sure the dominant class retained its dominance, which sometimes meant providing concessions to the submissive classes to prevent their revolt. The same is true today: in capitalist societies, the state primarily serves the interest of capital. So, no Jason, publicly funded education is not socialism. In a capitalist society, the state funds educational institutions whose job it is to prepare workers for productively generating wealth for the owners of capital. This doesn't just cover public schools, obviously, but private schools with generous endowments and acres of tax free property, and state funding for research that takes place in both public and private universities. This is not socialism; this is the dominant class leveraging the state apparatus to extend its influence, while the lower classes struggle for concessions.

The question, then, is not whether the state or private sector is in charge of the economy, it's whether the owners of capital are the dominant class or the workers are the dominant class. Following a revolutionary overthrow of a capitalist or feudal-capitalist economy by the workers, there will exist an uneasy continuation of class struggle. This can last for decades, perhaps a century. During this period, which Marxist-Leninists refer to as socialism, the working class uses the state to limit and oppress the remaining capitalist class and defend the revolutionary movement from internal and external threats. All socialist experiments that have succeeded for longer than a few years have adopted this strategy, first defined by Lenin in The State and Revolution.

Conversely, private enterprise is not necessarily antithetical to socialism. Remember, socialism is a transitional state, and depending on the conditions wherever the revolution has occurred (especially if it is emerging from a period of being dominated and suppressed by capitalist powers), the capitalist mode of production may be leveraged under the control of the workers' state to accelerate production and attract investment. In other words, to build wealth and gain power and influence in the capitalist world. To make capitalist societies depend on the workers' state instead of just trying to snuff it out. Sound familiar?

This is why all comments to the effect of "China is capitalist now" or "Venezuela became capitalist in the 2010's" are facile if they don't differentiate between adopting the methods of capitalism to build socialism or ceding the dominant class structure to capitalists. The USSR became capitalist. China is still socialist, which is again defined as a transitional stage that can (and perhaps must!) include capitalist elements. While China's heavy state regulation may resemble the social democratic reforms of Norway, they are not in the same phase of political economic development for this very reason. Norway is not building socialism, but managing capitalism in a way that placates the working class more than some other countries, in a way that makes sense for its particular conditions and resources. China is building socialism in a way that makes sense for its particular conditions and resources, not abandoning it in favor of capitalist domination with welfare policies. As such, Norway is allied with the imperialist colonizers of the world, while China is allied with the anti-imperialist, colonized, impoverished nations.

The liberal reduction of these forces and their representative interests to "authoritarian" versus "democratic" is metaphysical, not materialist.
 
Eutopia. Where human nature is non-existent. Failure to achieve eutopia is just an indication it’s not true communism.

I am looking for a communist to define it in practical terms. I have low expectations.

I imagine the most generous definition would be making the country a Kibbutz.

Note:

1) The Kibbutz in Israel didn't last. What ones still exist are nothing like what they were formed as.

2) Even they know not to make a country that way. A key feature is keeping it small. Once you're sharing with people outside your social circle it falls apart.

For the ultimate example of communism that works you need look no farther than marriage. Voluntary association, very small groups.
 
Didn't sound too bad. His kibbutz had private dwellings, common dining room, amenities like a swimming pool, and a car pool if you needed a car. A picture of someone carrying an assault rifle gave me pause.

Remember, Israel has universal (except for a few groups that are exempt) military service. Figure they're far better trained on that gun than the average person.
 
If I believed for a second that this question was being asked in good faith, I still wouldn't take the bait because of the liberal piranhas furiously awaiting the taste of blood. If you want to know about communism, why it's important, how to achieve it, and what to do about kulaks burning their grain supplies, there are thousands of resources available that can explain it better than me. All of the important works are available online, most of them for free or for a few dollars.

If you have SPECIFIC questions about SPECIFIC aspects of communism, I may be persuaded to answer some of those, but otherwise the discussion is likely to branch off into so many tangents that it would be impossible to address them all while still keeping my sanity.

Here is what I will say, to start you on your education, if you are actually interested in education and not performative self-righteous scolding:

Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.

-Karl Marx, The German Ideology

There is no answer to the question "under communism, what would x look like," because Marxism is not about predicting a future society in detail, it's about identifying the way current society works so that it can be changed in ways that actually make a difference (all of which is founded upon a theory of development that explains why some changes make a difference and others don't).

If I thought you actually had some understanding I would take you seriously.

The questions in the OP are specific.

Past anarchists and communist on the forum are never able to articulate beyond genialities as to alternatives. You are equivocating like the rest/ You claimed China is working towards a communist state, so what will that state be as communist? Why would you call it communist not free market capitalist? How do you distinguish between the two?

People like you talk communism like Christians talk about god. No real definition but they just know it exists.

I agree with the posting that communism means no private enterprise or possessions. China evolved from a failed ideological collectivism to a to a mixed economy. When the Chinese leader visited Obama in a news conference he identified China as socialist with no desire to emulate the USA.

You will have a hard time making a case that China is communist and that given the last 199 years any form of large scale communism can work.

So in a communist economy

Who sets what gets produced and how much.
Who sets compensation, does everybody get the same?
How is leadership selected and what direct political power do people have?
Do people have a right to directly address grievances and differences with the state without fear or penalty?
Do localities have any autonomy or is all policy set directly by the state?
 
Who sets what gets produced and how much.

In practice, the government. That same one which they claim doesn't exist. They call it anything except a government to avoid recognizing it for what it is.

Who sets compensation, does everybody get the same?

The exact same non-government government.

How is leadership selected and what direct political power do people have?

In theory the people have all the power and the officials represent their will. Of course that's also the theory here. In practice, the people have less power there than they have here.

Do people have a right to directly address grievances and differences with the state without fear or penalty?
Do localities have any autonomy or is all policy set directly by the state?

If the ruling council (that absolutely isn't a government) allows it.
 
In practice, the government. That same one which they claim doesn't exist. They call it anything except a government to avoid recognizing it for what it is.



The exact same non-government government.

How is leadership selected and what direct political power do people have?

In theory the people have all the power and the officials represent their will. Of course that's also the theory here. In practice, the people have less power there than they have here.

Do people have a right to directly address grievances and differences with the state without fear or penalty?
Do localities have any autonomy or is all policy set directly by the state?

If the ruling council (that absolutely isn't a government) allows it.

Yes, that generally fits the Soviet Union.
 
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