God and the nature of the Universe

[Cobalt]

Remember the 'double slit experiment?' Scientists couldn't get beyond a particular phase when trying to monitor up close the behaviour of the electrons. Everytime they tried, it was said that there must be an interference somehow by the person conducting the experiment.

Methinks you have a very idiosyncratic interpretation of the double slit experiment.

 

[Juma]

Still doesnt make sense. The point is that current physics shows that there are no "unknown forces" that affects us on a every day scale and thus necessary for a god to exist.

Currently we can only 'observe' the effects of how physical matter behaves. What is still 'unknown' is the forces that 'instructs' all physical things to do what they do. Where is that 'coding or the driving DNA of the universe , these behaviorable effects caused by some directive guide still being invisible to us ?

There is no "intent". The universe has been very thoroughly shown to follow totally predictable laws. There are no leeways for a "directive guide". We know how the building stones of atoms behave: protons, electrons etc ALWAYS behaves EXACTLY the same.

 

[abaddon]

An easier answer (religious) is ; Man is not supposed to know.

How do you mean that? Do you mean humans cannot know with finality? If so, that's a scientific stance, not a religious one. But maybe you meant he should just stop seeking at some point? Yeah, that'd be a religious and easier "answer".

The will-to-feeling-certain that many people suffer from is a tragic thing because it shuts down their curiosity. If a person would just say “I don’t know but I’m very curious” so that they buy or borrow some science books or take science classes at a community college, the joyous sense of wonder can only increase. Science doesn’t diminish the wonder at all, it adds more awe and mystery and wonder.

Others prefer to fill in the uncertain spaces with guesses. Then they assign their guesses the status of knowledge and get pissed if anyone doubts what marvels of inviolable certainty that their stupid guesses are. Or they memorize crap left over from medieval times. Or they float in a new-agey haze and mistake it for "open-mindedness". Sadly it's easier to just form quick and easy opinions, or to memorize dogmas made by long-dead parochial sorts who didn't think the world was much worth looking at anyway, or skip learning cuz it's easy to be a "floater".

At any point that you arrive at “God” as an answer, you’ve projected some mental stuff upon your cave wall.

Again, science doesn’t diminish the mystery and wonder, it adds more:

(The speaker is the physicist Richard Feynman.)

 

[Learner]

Methinks you have a very idiosyncratic interpretation of the double slit experiment.

There are others too as for example suggesting 'the mere observation collapses the wave function' what ever that really means or the particles/electrons know that they're being observed so react accordingly or the combination of both as interpretations.

 

[Learner]

There is no "intent". The universe has been very thoroughly shown to follow totally predictable laws. There are no leeways for a "directive guide". We know how the building stones of atoms behave: protons, electrons etc ALWAYS behaves EXACTLY the same.

Why are these behaviours and predictable laws held in place and throughout the universe ? You describe processes and functions but not the reason behind its predictable fixed state.

 

[Learner]

How do you mean that? Do you mean humans cannot know with finality? If so, that's a scientific stance, not a religious one. But maybe you meant he should just stop seeking at some point? Yeah, that'd be a religious and easier "answer".

Ive always thought even as an agnostic that there would be some restriction regarding physical instrumentation at some point. And as discussed by many here, we all agree and understand that in time we will uncover a lot more knowledge and advance in scientific progression.

The will-to-feeling-certain that many people suffer from is a tragic thing because it shuts down their curiosity. If a person would just say “I don’t know but I’m very curious” so that they buy or borrow some science books or take science classes at a community college, the joyous sense of wonder can only increase. Science doesn’t diminish the wonder at all, it adds more awe and mystery and wonder.

I am with you. Like many growing up I have been fascinated by the prospects to see incredible things or other worlds and all those futuristic wonders. (I was a trekie you know)
I agree science doesn't diminish the mystery , especially if you apply 'imagination' beyond a narrow 'observable scope by much 'curiosity' !

Others prefer to fill in the uncertain spaces with guesses. Then they assign their guesses the status of knowledge and get pissed if anyone doubts what marvels of inviolable certainty that their stupid guesses are. Or they memorize crap left over from medieval times. Or they float in a new-agey haze and mistake it for "open-mindedness". Sadly it's easier to just form quick and easy opinions, or to memorize dogmas made by long-dead parochial sorts who didn't think the world was much worth looking at anyway, or skip learning cuz it's easy to be a "floater".
At any point that you arrive at “God” as an answer, you’ve projected some mental stuff upon your cave wall.

A

I know what you mean. I say this because for 10 years I would try to find things to dispute and debate against all religious doctrine and try to highlight any contradictions to biblical notion. The more I did the more I saw differently.

(I could end up being atheist after all that. God forbid lol)

 

[Juma]

There is no "intent". The universe has been very thoroughly shown to follow totally predictable laws. There are no leeways for a "directive guide". We know how the building stones of atoms behave: protons, electrons etc ALWAYS behaves EXACTLY the same.

Why are these behaviours and predictable laws held in place and throughout the universe ? You describe processes and functions but not the reason behind its predictable fixed state.

So what? The point is that they are fixed. No room for deities fulfilling prayers, making wonders etc.

 

[Learner]

So what? The point is that they are fixed. No room for deities fulfilling prayers, making wonders etc.

Juma ,ok I understand you mean no need to know the reasons why things do what they do. Conclusion made no curiosity.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

There is no "intent". The universe has been very thoroughly shown to follow totally predictable laws. There are no leeways for a "directive guide". We know how the building stones of atoms behave: protons, electrons etc ALWAYS behaves EXACTLY the same.

Why are these behaviours and predictable laws held in place and throughout the universe ? You describe processes and functions but not the reason behind its predictable fixed state.

Do gods ever ask themselves what keeps them working, what holds them in place, what gives them the knowledge and ability to create a universe?

Or are you simply - perhaps unknowingly, perhaps intentionally - invoking a double standard?

 

[Learner]

Do gods ever ask themselves what keeps them working, what holds them in place, what gives them the knowledge and ability to create a universe?

Or are you simply - perhaps unknowingly, perhaps intentionally - invoking a double standard?

I couldn't tell you Joedad, but I would suspect that God would say in his biblical character; I AM the one that holds everything in place.

I'll think about it a little more after a little nap.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Do gods ever ask themselves what keeps them working, what holds them in place, what gives them the knowledge and ability to create a universe?

Or are you simply - perhaps unknowingly, perhaps intentionally - invoking a double standard?

I couldn't tell you Joedad, but I would suspect that God would say in his biblical character; I AM the one that holds everything in place.

Wouldn't that god want to know what keeps it's biblical character intact, keeps it going so it can hold everything in place?

God does not sound the least bit intellectually curious. How do you explain that? Does god ask itself why it is not intellectually curious? Would it not want to know why it is not intellectually curious? How would humans come to have intellectual curiosity if what made them has none? Is that what it means to become like a god?

Sounds like we're back to gods being mysterious. In which case does god want to know why it is mysterious? If a god is being mysterious would it not be curious about why it is being mysterious, what keeps it acting mysteriously?

And we could ask those questions endlessly, and of course have. It's just another version of angels on pinheads, could go on forever.

But the universe is different. We can actually discover the answers to why questions. We might not like the answers but we have them nonetheless. The gods don't sound like they have many answers, or ask many questions.

 

[Juma]

So what? The point is that they are fixed. No room for deities fulfilling prayers, making wonders etc.

Juma ,ok I understand you mean no need to know the reasons why things do what they do. Conclusion made no curiosity.

Of course we should search for the reason why the laws are what they are. My point is they dont change. Thus makes obvious that your wishes for a deity is that daydream it really is.

 

[skepticalbip]

There is no "intent". The universe has been very thoroughly shown to follow totally predictable laws. There are no leeways for a "directive guide". We know how the building stones of atoms behave: protons, electrons etc ALWAYS behaves EXACTLY the same.

Why are these behaviours and predictable laws held in place and throughout the universe ? You describe processes and functions but not the reason behind its predictable fixed state.

You are assuming a reason (purposeful intent). So far there is no evidence that there is such intent so no reason to assume it. Such "arguments" depend on the logical fallacy of petitio principii (assuming the principle point) or begging the question.

ETA:
Asking if there is purposeful intent behind the behavior of the universe would be a valid question. Asking what is the purposeful intent is not a valid question unless it is first demonstrated that there is such an intent.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Standard orthodox Christian theology claims God knows all true facts, and knows all untrue facts to be untrue. God therefore has nothing he needs to discover or yet to know. This means God knows his own nature perfectly. God's omniscience.

 

[Learner]

And we could ask those questions endlessly, and of course have. It's just another version of angels on pinheads, could go on forever.

But the universe is different. We can actually discover the answers to why questions. We might not like the answers but we have them nonetheless. The gods don't sound like they have many answers, or ask many questions.

I would say what Cheerful says to the above ,strickly speaking from a Christian perspective.

Standard orthodox Christian theology claims God knows all true facts, and knows all untrue facts to be untrue. God therefore has nothing he needs to discover or yet to know. This means God knows his own nature perfectly. God's omniscience.

 

[Learner]

Of course we should search for the reason why the laws are what they are. My point is they dont change. Thus makes obvious that your wishes for a deity is that daydream it really is.

Yes in a sense you're right, that it will be at least wishes and day dreams for some , ( I am already convinced of it) but either side of the argument can be enthusiastic and curious to find their best reasons to explain his or her position on the big matters in question.

( skeps ...good clarification of the questions. brb)

 

[Juma]

Of course we should search for the reason why the laws are what they are. My point is they dont change. Thus makes obvious that your wishes for a deity is that daydream it really is.

Yes in a sense you're right, that it will be at least wishes and day dreams for some , ( I am already convinced of it) but either side of the argument can be enthusiastic and curious to find their best reasons to explain his or her position on the big matters in question.

( skeps ...good clarification of the questions. brb)

Amen to that.
We should ALWAYS try to find the faults in our own reasoning.