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My drill bit broke

I think fast is alluding to the annoying problem of people who seem intent on refusing to accept any context or discussion framework other than the one they think suits their agenda/argument.

We see this a lot when folks are talking past one another while holding a stubborn definition of the word 'atheism' William Lane Craig deals with this problem by saying...OK, I'll use the word schmatheism instead.
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/media/reasonable-faith-podcast/the-definition-that-will-not-die

Indeed, that is how we view theists.

It's a problem on both sides across a whole range of topics wherever you have a contest of ideas. I'm hoping that fast will comment on WLC's workaround of saying...oh OK if you don't want me to use the word atheism (or drill bit) I'll use 'schmatheism' instead so that we can stop accusing each other of being off-topic.
 
I think fast is alluding to the annoying problem of people who seem intent on refusing to accept any context or discussion framework other than the one they think suits their agenda/argument.

We see this a lot when folks are talking past one another while holding a stubborn definition of the word 'atheism' William Lane Craig deals with this problem by saying...OK, I'll use the word schmatheism instead.
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/media/reasonable-faith-podcast/the-definition-that-will-not-die

Indeed, that is how we view theists.

It's a problem on both sides across a whole range of topics wherever you have a contest of ideas. I'm hoping that fast will comment on WLC's workaround of saying...oh OK if you don't want me to use the word atheism (or drill bit) I'll use 'schmatheism' instead so that we can stop accusing each other of being off-topic.
But do that then. Present YOUR concept ”schmateism” (or some other term) and see if you make anyone think that your definition describes any important concept or...
 
I think fast is alluding to the annoying problem of people who seem intent on refusing to accept any context or discussion framework other than the one they think suits their agenda/argument.

We see this a lot when folks are talking past one another while holding a stubborn definition of the word 'atheism' William Lane Craig deals with this problem by saying...OK, I'll use the word schmatheism instead.
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/media/reasonable-faith-podcast/the-definition-that-will-not-die

Indeed, that is how we view theists.

It's a problem on both sides across a whole range of topics wherever you have a contest of ideas. I'm hoping that fast will comment on WLC's workaround of saying...oh OK if you don't want me to use the word atheism (or drill bit) I'll use 'schmatheism' instead so that we can stop accusing each other of being off-topic.
It sidesteps the issue.
 
I think fast is alluding to the annoying problem of people who seem intent on refusing to accept any context or discussion framework other than the one they think suits their agenda/argument.

We see this a lot when folks are talking past one another while holding a stubborn definition of the word 'atheism' William Lane Craig deals with this problem by saying...OK, I'll use the word schmatheism instead.
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/media/reasonable-faith-podcast/the-definition-that-will-not-die

Indeed, that is how we view theists.

It's a problem on both sides across a whole range of topics wherever you have a contest of ideas. I'm hoping that fast will comment on WLC's workaround of saying...oh OK if you don't want me to use the word atheism (or drill bit) I'll use 'schmatheism' instead so that we can stop accusing each other of being off-topic.

Atheists are reactionary in that they respond to being labeled and put upon by religion, it is not the other way around. Christians for over a thousand years insist their way is the only way. To accept the validity of anything else is to invalidate their faith.

We are derailing into religion.
 
I don't really have much to say in line of words meaning different things "TO" different people. I believe words have objective meaning. Never mind all that for a moment; it can take us down a very long (and needless) path. Let us consider two different words altogether: "sex" vs "coitus." They have different meanings, but more important to my point, they are in fact different words. The definitions are different. However, even when comparing words that share the very same letters in the very same order, they too have different meanings.

My complaint is that people will respect the distinction when the letters are different but more resistant when the letters are the same. It's an unfortunate by-product of human nature when there's ambiguity.

Words have meaning, objectively. Yes, people can stipulate meaning, and that's fine, but most people can have a conversation without using words in an alternative manner--alternative to lexical usage. If I tell you that I have ten cats and no dogs, I expect that you know exactly what I mean. If I told you that the bank charged me a fee for a bounced check, I don't think I have to worry that you think I just told you that land near a river charged me a fee for a dribbling mark. Many (many many many) words have multiple meanings, and it's often incredibly easy for us to determine what is being expressed.

If I say the bank charged me a fee for a bounced check, would you deliberately (and unjokingly) play word games and say that I am mistaken because a river bank cannot charge a fee? Of course not.

However, people do just that and with seriousness when they think context is unimportant. They do that when using identical words but not when the words are not like "sex" and "coitus" from earlier. Here's an example: there is a definition of sex that strictly refers to intercourse. If I use that specific definition of that word yet say I didn't have sex yet it's also true oral sex was involved, what will people say when I deny having had sex even though I had oral sex? See how this can go awry? They fail to appreciate that words have multiple meanings in such instances. Because they see other definitions that apply, they feel like they can find an inaccuracy in what I say, yet in circumstances where the meaning is conveyed with a completely different word, there's no problem.

Even your 50 feet airborne question isn't well defined....is it a human doing the jumping? Were they wearing an exoskeleton? Or were we talking about a bird which can easily jump way more than 50 feet into the air? Or if you were referring to a human, did you consider jumping from a height of 50 feet...downward?
What? Okay!

Unaided by technology, it's impossible to use your normal legs that you were born with to jump upwards fifty feet in the air from a flat surface in your front yard. I will now make clear that by "impossible," I mean physically impossible. Essentially, I'm saying that the act is a physical impossibility.

So, is it possible? People will still chime in and say yes because of the fact it's still a logical possibility. The fact that the word is ambiguous seems to in their mind give them the right to think I'm wrong, but (but!), they don't do that merely because there's other definitions but because it's the very same word with other definitions.

Hope that clears it up some.
The sender is always responsibel for the how the message is received. It may not be always possible to ensure this but the responsibility remains.
The problem you mention often occur because the one making the first statement wasnt clear which definitions he used and thus creates ambiguity about what the subject really is. It then draws in debaters that is not interested in the intented debate but a slightly different one that is consistent with you wording.
That this happens is unfortunate and attempts to quench this parasitical debate often fails.
So: ensure that you make clear from the beginning what you really discuss.

- - - Updated - - -

this not a drill, I repeat: this is not a drill. Not a bit.
I've had time to chew on this. I accept your answer.

And thank you.
 
It's a problem on both sides across a whole range of topics wherever you have a contest of ideas. I'm hoping that fast will comment on WLC's workaround of saying...oh OK if you don't want me to use the word atheism (or drill bit) I'll use 'schmatheism' instead so that we can stop accusing each other of being off-topic.
It sidesteps the issue.

Yes. Deliberately and unashamedly.
He concedes that there's no point trying to stubbornly drag people across to his definition of atheism and he knows that talking off-topic, past your opponent (on purpose) is bad faith.
Based on what you wrote in your Op, I would have thought you'd think that was reasonable.
 
When I say that a legally sanctioned act is not criminal, I am not mistaken, so while coming back at me and saying that "the act is criminal" is something I might agree with, it would be incorrect to therefore think it's okay to come back and say to me that I'm mistaken. It's difficult to see when the same word is used, but broken down, it looks like this:

When I say that a legally sanctioned act is not criminal1, I am not mistaken, so while coming back at me and saying that "the act is criminal2" is something I might agree with, it would be incorrect to therefore think it's okay to come back and say to me that I am mistaken.

There's a fundamental difference between saying something that only has the appearance of contradicting me and saying something that in fact does contradict me.

Ally: the act is not criminal
Bob: the act is criminal

That only has the appearance of contradiction as can be seen with:

Ally: the act is not criminal1
Bob: the act is criminal2

The problem I have is when bob slightly alters his wording:

Ally: the act is not criminal
Bob: no, the act is criminal.

He is claiming that the act is criminal2, but he's also denying the truth of what I said.

Where this gets interesting is in cases concerning the topic of possibility. When I say flat out that I'm talking about physical possibility, it's not lost on me that it's nevertheless logically possible, so if I claim that an act is impossible, it's incorrect to say I'm wrong because there's a different sense of the term that if used shows me to be in error.
 
I have been pondering the OP at great length. A broken drill bit, is it a plea for help over virility or sexual dysfunction? The old power tool isn't what it used to be?
 
I believe words have objective meaning.
(...)
Words have meaning, objectively. Yes, people can stipulate meaning, and that's fine, but most people can have a conversation without using words in an alternative manner--alternative to lexical usage.
Well, no, no objective meaning. Objective senses given by objective definitions on the basis of objective usage. People mean what they like with words and use them at their peril but they can't mess with senses, definitions and usage. :sadyes:

So, is it possible? People will still chime in and say yes because of the fact it's still a logical possibility. The fact that the word is ambiguous seems to in their mind give them the right to think I'm wrong, but (but!), they don't do that merely because there's other definitions but because it's the very same word with other definitions.

Hope that clears it up some.

Yeah, possible. :D
EB
 
The sender is always responsibel for the how the message is received.

No.

It's very much a letter. You're responsible for what you send, not for what people receive. How a message is received may be dependent on so many imponderables that you can't ask the sender to assume responsibility. All you can do is point out the flaws in the message in the hope that the next message would be better for it.
EB
 
Speakpigeon said:
Well, no, no objective meaning.
Bull to the power of shit, squared! That response is a product of both drinking and intelligence :D

Objective senses given by objective definitions on the basis of objective usage. People mean what they like with words and use them at their peril but they can't mess with senses, definitions and usage.

What, pray-tell, is tumbling erratically in the minds of people who dare to deny my assertions!!! People can mean what what they mean when they speak; even mean people can mean what they mean, but I don't care what even a nice person might have in mind when they muster the courage to express what they mean, as it will have lil bearing on whether the words they choose to use will accord with the meaning of words used.

Humpty Dumpty has been fired!

Lexical meaning is a function of collective usage, not individual usage. Disambiguation in the face of ambiguity might call for a sign for what a speaker means, but the meaning of words is independent of individual usage. Stipulative usage, not necessarily, but when the police officer says stop, what that means is exactly what that means, no matter what either the sender meant or receiver perceived it to mean.
 
Lexical meaning is a function of collective usage, not individual usage.

Well, collective usage is a function of individual use, surely.

Disambiguation in the face of ambiguity might call for a sign for what a speaker means, but the meaning of words is independent of individual usage. Stipulative usage, not necessarily, but when the police officer says stop, what that means is exactly what that means, no matter what either the sender meant or receiver perceived it to mean.

Ah, well, seems we just disagree here.

The only meanings that the words we use have are the meaning they have in the context where we use them, hence the notion of lexical meaning doesn't apply here. The only meanings there are here are the one intended by the emitter and the one resulting of the interpretation given by the receiver. And they're often different, obviously. Otherwise, we would always agree with each other and that would become quickly very boring.

Meaning
b. Something that is conveyed or intended, especially by language; sense or significance: The writer's meaning was obscured by convoluted prose.
EB
 
Well, collective usage is a function of individual use, surely.



Ah, well, seems we just disagree here.

The only meanings that the words we use have are the meaning they have in the context where we use them, hence the notion of lexical meaning doesn't apply here. The only meanings there are here are the one intended by the emitter and the one resulting of the interpretation given by the receiver. And they're often different, obviously. Otherwise, we would always agree with each other and that would become quickly very boring.

Meaning
b. Something that is conveyed or intended, especially by language; sense or significance: The writer's meaning was obscured by convoluted prose.
EB
No no no no no! Stop having a different take on the matter and all this disagreement will go away. :D

There's a lot going on. When the break occurs in a game of pool (billiards to those trying to follow), there's a lot of balls going a lot of directions at different speeds at different angles. Some balls have spin, some bounce off the railings, some go into pockets. But, that's not everything. Balls are hitting other balls causing changes, stopping things from happening that otherwise would, causing other things from happening that otherwise wouldn't. It's a lot to take in--a lot to keep track off.

You have what you mean to say (inside you, internal to the mind). Haven't you ever seen someone struggling to find the right words to express what it is they have in mind? Fumbling about wanting to express aloud what silently resides within. We ask ourselves, I wonder what he means. So, that's ball number 1: what the person means.

And then out of the blue, your hears pick up (perk up, even) after hearing a familiar word --but used in a manner to which you've never heard before. Well gee, we momentarily wonder, does this person have a clue as to even what this word means. But, never mind that meaning for a moment. Let's focus on this peculiar usage. In the moment, the word (in temporary special usage) takes on ball number 2: a stipulative usage. The word now temporarily denotes an alternative usage--commonly signified as alternative usage via 'single' quotes.

Evolution. Dictionary meaning. The lexical meaning of words are a function of collective usage by fluent speakers of a language. That's why what Bob happens to mean by some haphazard arbitrary use of some word does not show up as explanations to what a word means in dictionaries. A stipulative usage, like a seed in the spring, may catch hold and work its way into language --into popular usage. That very same word may take on a meaning that transcends even the life of the person who first uttered it in that first peculiar manner. All grown up, there's no need for single quotes.

I know this pretty 'kitten', and she is 'hungry'. You may have an inkling as to what I have in mind (1) by what what I wrote, but given everything I've said up to now, you might have guessed that I have not used a couple words in ordinary manner. (2), but one things for sure, had I said, "I know this pretty kitten, and she is hungry", it has a meaning that is separate and apart from both 1 and 2.
 
The writer's meaning was obscured by convoluted prose.

Indeed.
EB
 
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