Politics Sweden and Finland are joining NATO

[DrZoidberg]

Today it was made final. When Sweden and Finland first applied Turkey was upset because of Sweden's long standing support for PKK. Basically, the upper echelons of PKK are all living in Sweden now. Previously the Socialdemocrats (the party in power in Sweden) had given assurances that they wouldn't go soft and stick to their support for PKK.

But they did a 180 today and announced that a deal has been struck with Turkey, and that 33 PKK leaders wanted by Turkey will be handed over to Turkey.

Realpolitik at it's finest.

I imagine the internal talk about this went something like this, "yes, this violates every principle that our political party holds sacred, but there is a war on in Europe right now. We need friends".

I think it was the right decision. Joining NATO and making a show of force against Russia is more important than the human rights of a handful, (relics from the 1970'ies), communist freedom fighters. When I was a kid the nearest candy shop was run by an ex-PKK big wig.

Russia has threatened Lithunia, another country, in Putin's vivid imagination that should belong to Russia, and that has made Sweden very nervous.

 

[Jayjay]

Well, that's bullshit*. Some of the people on the list are Swedish/Finnish citizens who may have done as little as vandalized Turkish embassies or insulted Erdogan. Handing them over just because Turkey asks is a serious violation of their civil rights, and would be an embarrassement to both countries. And frankly, I don't think it will happen, because in neither Sweden or Finland, people aren't going to be extradited by political decrees, if the courts say they shouldn't. It would require laws to be amended.

(EDITED TO ADD: * = By bullshit I mean the possible extradition of these people, not what Dr. Z said.)

 

[Jayjay]

Also, I have a suspicion that the real reason for Turkey giving in is that US promised it would get back in the F-16 program. Whatever promises Sweden or Finland made are just icing on the cake for Erdogan.

 

[barbos]

I imagine the internal talk about this went something like this, "yes, this violates every principle that our political party holds sacred

You never had any principles, because:

The PKK is designated as a terrorist organization by Turkey,[26] the United States,[27] the EU[28]

Also, I have a suspicion that the real reason for Turkey giving in is that US promised it would get back in the F-16 program. Whatever promises Sweden or Finland made are just icing on the cake for Erdogan.

You mean F22?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Well, that's bullshit*. Some of the people on the list are Swedish/Finnish citizens who may have done as little as vandalized Turkish embassies or insulted Erdogan. Handing them over just because Turkey asks is a serious violation of their civil rights, and would be an embarrassement to both countries. And frankly, I don't think it will happen, because in neither Sweden or Finland, people aren't going to be extradited by political decrees, if the courts say they shouldn't. It would require laws to be amended.

(EDITED TO ADD: * = By bullshit I mean the possible extradition of these people, not what Dr. Z said.)

Yes, it is a serious violation of their civil rights. But this comes down to "pick your battles". While it would be good and the right thing to do, to stick up for the rights of the PKK members. Sometimes we can't get what we want, and we just need to prioritize what is the most important thing for us right now, and violate some of our principles. Turkey is in NATO, and an extremely valuable NATO member. Worst possible timing to antagonize Turkey, or to demand the rest of NATO has to pick sides.

Not Sweden's proudest moment. But I think it's necessary.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I imagine the internal talk about this went something like this, "yes, this violates every principle that our political party holds sacred

You never had any principles, because:

The PKK is designated as a terrorist organization by Turkey,[26] the United States,[27] the EU[28]

You could just read about how Turkey has been treating the Kurdish part of their country and soften a little. Yes, they're terrorists. But so was the Turkish police state created by Kemal Atatürk, they were created to fight. The Kurds are still being mistreated by the central government.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Also, I have a suspicion that the real reason for Turkey giving in is that US promised it would get back in the F-16 program. Whatever promises Sweden or Finland made are just icing on the cake for Erdogan.

That could be possible. Sweden has a history of doing everything USA wants, even when there's no obvious benefit for Sweden.

 

[barbos]

I imagine the internal talk about this went something like this, "yes, this violates every principle that our political party holds sacred

You never had any principles, because:

The PKK is designated as a terrorist organization by Turkey,[26] the United States,[27] the EU[28]

You could just read about how Turkey has been treating the Kurdish part of their country and soften a little. Yes, they're terrorists. But so was the Turkish police state created by Kemal Atatürk, they were created to fight. The Kurds are still being mistreated by the central government.

Fine, expel Turkey from NATO
As for reading about it. I don't need to, Scandinavian countries are known for supporting chechen terrorists back in the days and these were nothing but 100% terrorists.

 

[Jayjay]

Also, I have a suspicion that the real reason for Turkey giving in is that US promised it would get back in the F-16 program. Whatever promises Sweden or Finland made are just icing on the cake for Erdogan.

You mean F22?

No, I meant F-16.

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

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President Joe Biden’s administration has expressed public support for Turkey’s purchase of US F-16 fighter jets after Ankara dropped its objections to Finland and Sweden’s bids to join Nato.

Celeste Wallander, assistant secretary of defence for international security affairs, said the US “fully supports” Turkey’s plans to modernise its F-16 fleet in comments that represented Washington’s strongest public backing for the request since it was lodged by Ankara last October.

(...)

Facing a crisis in its air force, Turkey asked the US to grant approval for a request to buy 40 new Lockheed Martin F-16s, as well as modernisation kits to upgrade about 80 of its existing jets. US officials on Wednesday said both issues would be challenging to move through Congress, but the modernisation kit request was further along.

 

[Jayjay]

Well, that's bullshit*. Some of the people on the list are Swedish/Finnish citizens who may have done as little as vandalized Turkish embassies or insulted Erdogan. Handing them over just because Turkey asks is a serious violation of their civil rights, and would be an embarrassement to both countries. And frankly, I don't think it will happen, because in neither Sweden or Finland, people aren't going to be extradited by political decrees, if the courts say they shouldn't. It would require laws to be amended.

(EDITED TO ADD: * = By bullshit I mean the possible extradition of these people, not what Dr. Z said.)

Yes, it is a serious violation of their civil rights. But this comes down to "pick your battles". While it would be good and the right thing to do, to stick up for the rights of the PKK members. Sometimes we can't get what we want, and we just need to prioritize what is the most important thing for us right now, and violate some of our principles. Turkey is in NATO, and an extremely valuable NATO member. Worst possible timing to antagonize Turkey, or to demand the rest of NATO has to pick sides.

Not Sweden's proudest moment. But I think it's necessary.

My point is, that Sweden hasn't really promised anything that would violate its principles. The piece of paper we signed is just a generic affirmation of fighting terrorism, but prescribes no specific means or add new groups to terrorist lists.

We'll see how Sweden will react to Turkey's extradition request. My guess is that nobody will be extradited.

Also, I have a suspicion that the real reason for Turkey giving in is that US promised it would get back in the F-16 program. Whatever promises Sweden or Finland made are just icing on the cake for Erdogan.

That could be possible. Sweden has a history of doing everything USA wants, even when there's no obvious benefit for Sweden.

In this case, isn't it the USA who's doing Sweden a favor though?

 

[barbos]

In this case, isn't it the USA who's doing Sweden a favor though?

US or rather US MIC are not in the business of doing anybody favor.
They only care about money, sweet Finnish/Swedish money they are about to get.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Finland and Sweden promised “to not provide support” to the Syrian Kurdish YPG militia.
Finland and Sweden also confirm PKK to be a terrorist organization and promise to interrupt their financing and recruitment practices. Note: In Turkey, anyone who criticizes Erdogan is a terrorist. They also promise to address Turkey’s 33 extradition requests but this will be in accordance with the European Convention on Extradition. And they’ll lift their arms embargo against Turkey.
That’s it. There’s nothing about F-16s. Any implication to such is likely something intentionally hung out in the ether as Turkey has elections coming up next year.

 

[Jayjay]

Finland and Sweden promised “to not provide support” to the Syrian Kurdish YPG militia.
Finland and Sweden also confirm PKK to be a terrorist organization and promise to interrupt their financing and recruitment practices. Note: In Turkey, anyone who criticizes Erdogan is a terrorist. They also promise to address Turkey’s 33 extradition requests but this will be in accordance with the European Convention on Extradition. And they’ll lift their arms embargo against Turkey.
That’s it. There’s nothing about F-16s. Any implication to such is likely something intentionally hung out in the ether as Turkey has elections coming up next year.

There's nothing on paper obviously, as it's between USA and Turkey. But consider that Erdogan was in a position to block Sweden and Finland's accession indefinitely (there is a precedent: Greece blocked Macedonia's membership for over a decade, until the latter agreed to change their name to "Northern Macedonia"). Did the promises made by Sweden and Finland really change Erdogan's mind, or was there something else that was offered off the record to sweeten the deal?

I think the statements by Celeste Wallander imply, that Biden may have promised to sell F-16s or at least spare parts for the F-16s that Turkey already has, in exchange for not blocking Sweden and Finland.

 

[Jayjay]

In this case, isn't it the USA who's doing Sweden a favor though?

US or rather US MIC are not in the business of doing anybody favor.
They only care about money, sweet Finnish/Swedish money they are about to get.

What money? The 2% defense spending rule is just a guideline, and it doesn't have to be spent on USA. Sweden for example has its own large defense sector.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Fine, expel Turkey from NATO
As for reading about it. I don't need to, Scandinavian countries are known for supporting chechen terrorists back in the days and these were nothing but 100% terrorists.

To some extent they were, but a lot of their actions were simply resistance against Russian occupation.

 

[DrZoidberg]

BBC News - Who are 'terrorists' Turkey wants from Sweden and Finland?

Who are 'terrorists' Turkey wants from Sweden and Finland?

The BBC speaks to three people sought in return for support of Swedish and Finnish Nato membership.

www.bbc.co.uk

It turns out that the Swedish constitution might get in the way of extradition. Some of them can't be extradited because their actions aren't considered illegal in Sweden or EU

 

[Jayjay]

BBC News - Who are 'terrorists' Turkey wants from Sweden and Finland?

Who are 'terrorists' Turkey wants from Sweden and Finland?

The BBC speaks to three people sought in return for support of Swedish and Finnish Nato membership.

www.bbc.co.uk

It turns out that the Swedish constitution might get in the way of extradition. Some of them can't be extradited because their actions aren't considered illegal in Sweden or EU

No shit.

We'll see how Sweden will react to Turkey's extradition request. My guess is that nobody will be extradited.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In this case, isn't it the USA who's doing Sweden a favor though?

US or rather US MIC are not in the business of doing anybody favor.
They only care about money, sweet Finnish/Swedish money they are about to get.

I don't know. Our government often just provides the funds itself, like the infamous Trump cash for Biden "dirt" deal. That cash was coming from the US so Ukraine could "buy" weapons from American arms dealers, I mean military contractors.

 

[DrZoidberg]

BBC News - Who are 'terrorists' Turkey wants from Sweden and Finland?

Who are 'terrorists' Turkey wants from Sweden and Finland?

The BBC speaks to three people sought in return for support of Swedish and Finnish Nato membership.

www.bbc.co.uk

It turns out that the Swedish constitution might get in the way of extradition. Some of them can't be extradited because their actions aren't considered illegal in Sweden or EU

No shit.

We'll see how Sweden will react to Turkey's extradition request. My guess is that nobody will be extradited.

Some already have. A few of them were straight up terrorists. In the 70'ies and 80'ies you could brag about being a left wing terrorist and be welcome in polite society. So some of them have admitted to horrendous acts publicly. A little reminder of how values shift over time

 

[Jayjay]

We'll see how Sweden will react to Turkey's extradition request. My guess is that nobody will be extradited.

Some already have. A few of them were straight up terrorists. In the 70'ies and 80'ies you could brag about being a left wing terrorist and be welcome in polite society. So some of them have admitted to horrendous acts publicly. A little reminder of how values shift over time

Source? I couldn't find anything except Erdogan boasting about it. But no actual extraditions taking place.