The Buddha's Mistake

[Ramaraksha]

That is what philosophy, morals and childhood stories are all about right? To lead a life that you find good and fulfilled. What i am saying is that in the past life was pretty bad - imagine being old and stuck in the house and there is a huge snowstorm. Today if you live in a city, the govt will clear the roads etc, you can go buy food at a local store but back then you didn't have all that. Surgery was done by tying up the person and putting some cloth in his or her mouth to prevent screaming in pain
In such a situation the prospect of going away to some magic land of plenty where a nice Sugar Daddy will nicely forgive our sins and will give us a comfortable life sounds very very appealing. Ancient Hindus saw this as cowardice - life has gotten a lot better because people struggled, fought life and slowly made life better for all of us and the struggle will continue. Reincarnation is the call to continue this struggle
Heaven is essentially a selfish choice - yes no more pain or suffering for YOU - one person. Just because there is no more pain or suffering for you doesn't mean it has stopped for everyone else - animals will still continue to suffer, women will continue to get raped, children will continue to be kidnapped, raped and sold, people will still kill and get killed - Reincarnation then, says be part of the solution. You have a choice - Fight or Flight - Reincarnation or Heaven

 

[Ramaraksha]

It also means we are human - to care for something is normal, natural. You have a body made of flesh and bone - you feel pain and pleasure thru it. One day you could go on a rocket ship, be hit by some strange stuff and wake with a body covered in rock - now nothing can harm you, but there is a downside isn't there? Now you can't even hug anyone. Be careful what you wish for

Isn't it the point of Buddhist meditation and understanding of desire and suffering to transcend attachment to the things of the world and achieve enlightenment?

''The Buddhist teachings say that the more people free themselves from desire, ill will and ignorance, the greater their happiness is — no matter what is going on around them. When they have completely removed desire, ill will and ignorance the Buddha says they will experience the same supreme happiness he discovered.''

Yes absolutely but be careful what you wish for, it will come true. Take 2 kids - one wants high scores or marks - have his teacher and parents praise him - so he stays up late, worries over his studies, while the other kid doesn't care, has no desires, so he is snoring away. Which one is happier? The latter of course. Having no desires means having no life! Don't aspire for anything, means you get nothing in life. Aspire for something, desire for something, and pain shows up
The Buddha actually walked away from the good life - he was a prince, had the best food, all the pleasures of life and walked straight into pain and suffering. I think at the end he realized the mistake that he made - not from walking out of the palace but the search was wrong.
I think you have his teachings wrong - the happiness he talks about comes from facing life - taking in all the ups and downs equally - neither getting too high nor too low

 

[Ramaraksha]

Pain is part of you

This is exactly what Buddha claims to be verifiably false. The delusion that your emotions, feelings, thoughts are somehow parts of you, not merely incorporated in "you" by force of habit is a major part of what Buddhists call "ignorance" leading to dukkha. You can verify this, in a very small way, for yourself: it's an amplified version of the difference between being angry vs. being angry and also being aware of this fact.

I keep saying running away from dukkha is not that hard - drop all desires, aspire for nothing, don't care about anything and life will be much easier but it will also be useless. Why should the Dalai Lama try to gain independence for Tibet? That desire has meant that he is cast out of his country, and if India was not there to give him refuge, i wonder what his fate might have been. The great ones never thought of their own selfish desires, they cared for others and that's when dukkha enters life. Tomorrow if you see a young girl being harassed by goons, you have a choice - you can look away, pretend you didn't see it -no dukkha, no suffering for you. But stand up to those bullies and you might get hurt -it is a choice you must make

 

[DBT]

I think you have his teachings wrong - the happiness he talks about comes from facing life - taking in all the ups and downs equally - neither getting too high nor too low

How can I have got it wrong when I essentially said the same thing? The middle path, awareness without undue attachment or strong desire....

 

[Ramaraksha]

I think you have his teachings wrong - the happiness he talks about comes from facing life - taking in all the ups and downs equally - neither getting too high nor too low

How can I have got it wrong when I essentially said the same thing? The middle path, awareness without undue attachment or strong desire....

You must have attachments and strong desires - that's what makes you human. Those attachments and strong desires are what will make you stand up to strongmen & dictators, stand up to your values, the kind of life that you want. We forget that the life that you have now is the result of so many people fighting for and most times losing their lives for. A successful society is built, it is not given and that is the essential difference with Heaven - here on earth, no one is going to GIVE you anything, you will have to fight for it, EARN it, whereas in Heaven everything is given - at least that is the hope, that some Sugar Daddy God will just waiting to give away the good life, but i digress

Have you ever heard of a sportsman saying that he was in the zone? That's what the Buddha was talking about - the ability to be in the zone while facing disappointment or pure joy - to take the bad the same as the good, but realize the difference between the two. The middle path, at least as i have understood it, is not about not having attachments or strong desires but to take them as they come. In the Gita God Krishna extols us to do our duty and not worry about the results - the last part is being taken the wrong way - we do need to worry about the results but bad results should not beat us down - that's what being in the zone means - take the bad and keep fighting, happy with the good but realize we are not home yet

I fear you are headed the wrong way - you don't want any attachments or strong desires? That wish will be fulfilled - have you watched any nature videos? Plenty free on YouTube - try the eagle - the mother eagle typically lays one or two eggs - the egg that hatches early gets off to a great start - it gets food early and grows strong - it will start beating up on its sibling - the mother doesn't discriminate as we human mothers do, human mothers will make sure each child gets enough to eat, not so the mother eagle - it will hold the food out and which ever mouth can grab it, that's where the food goes and guess what, the elder chick will grab ALL the food, all the while slowly killing its younger sibling. Pecked to death, no food, the younger sibling will slowly starve to death. And what will the mother do? Why, rip its body apart and feed it to the older sibling, of course! You don't want attachments or desires? There you go - you will be reborn as an eagle

Go lower and attachments and desires will disappear even more! There are some mother bugs that will lay their eggs and die and when the little babies hatch they find food ready & nearby that they can eat and grow strong - their mother!

Human life is a Gift - please understand that

 

[DBT]

How can I have got it wrong when I essentially said the same thing? The middle path, awareness without undue attachment or strong desire....

You must have attachments and strong desires - that's what makes you human. Those attachments and strong desires are what will make you stand up to strongmen & dictators, stand up to your values, the kind of life that you want.

That's not what I'm saying. I didn't say that we as humans don't experience desire and fear amongst a host of emotions and drives, or that these are not our drivers of behaviour and decision making.....I am pointing out that the concept of enlightenment/nirvana in Buddhism entails;

''The First Noble Truth is that life is suffering. To live, you must suffer. It is impossible to live without experiencing some kind of suffering. We have to endure physical suffering like sickness, injury, tiredness, old age and eventually death and we have to endure psychological suffering like loneliness, frustrations, fear, embarrassment, disappointment, anger, etc.''


''The Second Noble Truth is that all suffering is caused by craving. When we look at psychological suffering, it is easy to see how it is caused by craving. When we want something but are unable to get it, we feel frustrated. When we expect someone to live up to our expectation and they do not, we feel let down and disappointed. When we want others to like us and they don't, we feel hurt. Even when we want something and are able to get it, this does not often lead to happiness either because it is not long before we feel bored with that thing, lose interest in it and commence to want something else. Put simply, the Second Noble Truth says that getting what you want does not guarantee happiness. Rather than constantly struggling to get what you want, try to modify your wanting. Wanting deprives us of contentment and happiness.''

''The Third Noble Truth is that suffering can be overcome and happiness attained. This is perhaps the most important of the Four Noble Truths because in it the Buddha reassures us that true happiness and contentment are possible. When we give up useless craving and learn to live each day at a time, enjoying without restless wanting the experiences that life offers us, patiently enduring the problems that life involves without fear, hatred and anger, then we become happy and free. Then, and only then, do we being to live fully. Because we are no longer obsessed with satisfying our own selfish wants, we find we have so much time to help others fulfil their needs. This state is called Nirvana. We are free from all psychological suffering as well. This is called Final Nirvana.''

 

[Ramaraksha]

I do disagree with the 2nd Noble Truth - sometimes when we are told that Buddha is the enlightened person(a God for us Hindus), we stop questioning what is being said, secondly is that really what the Buddha meant when he said those words? Have they been twisted a bit?

In ancient India Teachers would sometimes answer questions but that does not mean that they are saying you should do it - there is a difference. For eg if you say what will happen if i stand on the rail tracks - well you will get run over - that is the answer to the question, not that anyone is suggesting that you do it

The 2nd Truth is not that complicated - if you never try anything, you will never fail, will never be disappointed. The boxer who says "I never lost a match in my life" - well follow that up with the question, "How many boxing matches were you in?" - "None, zero" - the boxer's statement is true

It is the boxer that steps into the ring that will face defeat, disappointment - but we must understand that that is life - life without aspirations, dreams is not life, God's Gift of the human life is wasted.

There is a very famous Hindu saying(my 2nd favorite Hindu saying) - that goes - Tat Tvam Asi - meaning - You Are That - ie you will be what you want to be. You want a life without hopes, aspirations, disappointments, be happy and free every day? You will be reborn as a Tree, a little bug, a blade of grass - you will get your wish - a life without pain or want, you will be free from suffering

Human life comes packaged with pain and suffering - if you do not want the latter, then maybe human life is not for you. It's a choice you must make - Tat Tvam Asi - you will be what you wish

 

[Ramaraksha]

The 3rd Noble Truth is correct - but is the Buddha suggesting that we follow it? I have my doubts

Again what he is saying is not that complicated - drop all desires, aspirations - you will be happy - yes of course. Take 2 kids - one wants high marks, top Grades - he will be staying up late, studying, worrying. The other couldn't care less whether he gets a D or fails - what is he doing? Why, snoring away happily, of course! A 3rd kid can do even better! Just drop out of school! Even less worries!

Aspire for nothing, want nothing - joy, happiness! What a stupid waste of God's Gift!

 

[DBT]

Aspire for nothing, want nothing - joy, happiness! What a stupid waste of God's Gift!

That's an oversimplification of Buddhist philosophy....nor is there a belief in a God bearing gifts in Buddhism.

 

[skepticalbip]

Aspire for nothing, want nothing - joy, happiness! What a stupid waste of God's Gift!

Some people desire joy, happiness and follow the Buddha's path. Some people desire wealth, automobiles, large houses, etc. thinking it will make them happy but are burdened with a stressful job to maintain and pay for them and the worry that they will loose what they have worked so hard for.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Aspire for nothing, want nothing - joy, happiness! What a stupid waste of God's Gift!

Some people desire joy, happiness and follow the Buddha's path. Some people desire wealth, automobiles, large houses, etc. thinking it will make them happy but are burdened with a stressful job to maintain and pay for them and the worry that they will loose what they have worked so hard for.

The example is always about getting rich, are there not other desires and aspirations? The Dalai Lama has a desire, an aspiration which he hopes will be fulfilled within his lifetime. Gandhiji had an aspiration, MLK had a dream, Einstein, Lincoln had other dreams and aspirations. Marie Curie died chasing and because of her dreams and aspirations so did Gandhiji, MLK and Lincoln - those are the good deaths - a fulfillment of human life and that is why i say a life without dreams or aspirations is a wasted life

To me what you say sounds somewhat like dropping out of school - no more school, no more homework, no more worries - just sit back and enjoy the day! But then you will amount to nothing, no one will congratulate you for dropping out of school nor will you be getting a medal for doing so

Listen, having desires and aspirations is always painful and stressful and the opposite without them - but it is like checking out of life without desires and aspirations, a human life anyway.

Most animals do not have much of any desires or aspirations - from the time they wake up their time is spent finding food and trying to not be eaten and somehow raise a family. The Hindu saying Tat Tvam Asi comes into play here - You Are That - maybe life as an animal will suit you better