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The philosophy of politics

Ok, let's make sweeping generalisations of various political ideologies. Typical brain failure's of people in that camp.

Here's mine.
Conservatives are typically essentialist. People do what they do because it's in their nature, and it's a waste of time to change them. People belong to eternal categories and society only superficially changes.

socialists/leftists
Spend ALL their time analysing the problem. As if that is all that is necessary is to understand why something happens. But seem to think that all we need to do is pass some sort of law or regulation and all people will magically adapt their values to the new law. Not sure what the philosophical term for this is? Overaly analytical?

Libertarians (and fiscal liberals)
Operate with the idea that all people have perfect knowledge of the world, that all people are basically omniscient. And also, when they have information they will act on it. Ie, humans as value optimsing robots driven by base desires.

I'm not going to use the term "liberal" because it seems to mean different things in Europe vs USA.

What's yours?
I would say:

Most Conservatives are people who vote to maintain advantages they think they have.

Most Socialists are people who vote to obtain advantages they think others have.

Most Libertarians are people who think they personally can thrive in a system where the state is limited to preventing threats, physical violence and coertion.

What most of these people say of themselves will be quite different.

Only few people really believe in any high-level principle that significantly affect their behaviour, like democracy, justice and such. Those who do tend to suffer as a result unless they are also very smart, which happens occasionally, which may result in some sort of progress being made.
EB
 
Most human beings have a high delta of ignorance and discussing politics with them, or listening to their views, is mostly a waste of time.

How's that for a generalization?
 
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I disagree even though it sure seems this way on the surface. I like to think that at least some democrats, myself for one, believe that the individual actually gets more with certain social policies, and I don't mean mooching off the government. For example, the capitalists/republicans in Alberta cringe at the NDP's concern for the environment.

Well, I for one don't think I am going to get very far capitalist or not if the environment becomes more of a financial and health burden. Another example is medical research. Bill Gates himself does not have enough money to make the advances that a well organized social and business orientated program could provide for him. He may get the best treatment of what there is available today, but a collective push for better medical research from taxes would surely give him better care as just a normal citizen.

Synergy, the parts get more when they all work together.
Like ants.

Let's do the Hive.
EB

"ants", "Hive"?

The only thing worse than a troll is an unfunny troll that makes no sense.
 
Most human beings have a high delta of ignorance and discussing politics with them, or listening to their views, is mostly a waste of time.

How's that for a generalization?

So true. Good metaphore btw, haven't heard that before.
 
One problem here is that so many confuse 'socialism' with intervention by the capitalist state. Socialism is about common control of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and for a long time this was mixed up with naïve notions about common control of that state, which is actually, of course, controlled by big business, and this is what has caused the mental problem. More and more, since violent party-led revolution is so hugely chancy, we socialists are moving towards direct workers control of business, which can happen even within capitalism, as we see in firms like John Lewis.
 
One problem here is that so many confuse 'socialism' with intervention by the capitalist state. Socialism is about common control of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and for a long time this was mixed up with naïve notions about common control of that state, which is actually, of course, controlled by big business, and this is what has caused the mental problem. More and more, since violent party-led revolution is so hugely chancy, we socialists are moving towards direct workers control of business, which can happen even within capitalism, as we see in firms like John Lewis.

I know that's the official definition of socialism, I think there's been a radical shift in the common usage of the word. I think socialism today is an ideal, rather than the method by which this ideal is reached. Like Deng Xio Ping said, "it doesn't matter if the cat is white or black. What matters is that it catches mice".

So while you're correct in the academic sense, I think socialism today really does mean various government interventions.

I've personally worked in various government companies created by two socialist governments. My conclusion is that the state should stay the fuck away from running companies. It also makes sense. When government runs companies the incentives are all off. The end customer is always the least important person for a socialist company. The real "customer" is some government functionary. So the entire company is geared toward making that one person happy. The inevitable result is a dysfunctional company where hardly anybody does what they're supposed to. This is true for each of the companies I've ended up in. So I think it's a terrible idea that the government owns the "means of production".

Yes, I too am a socialist. I follow the maxim "a society should be judged on how it treats it's weakest members". As far as I'm concerned that leads to socialism. But not a problem free utopia. That just leads to a whole other set of head-aches. While worth it, a pain.
 
One problem here is that so many confuse 'socialism' with intervention by the capitalist state. Socialism is about common control of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and for a long time this was mixed up with naïve notions about common control of that state, which is actually, of course, controlled by big business, and this is what has caused the mental problem. More and more, since violent party-led revolution is so hugely chancy, we socialists are moving towards direct workers control of business, which can happen even within capitalism, as we see in firms like John Lewis.

I know that's the official definition of socialism, I think there's been a radical shift in the common usage of the word. I think socialism today is an ideal, rather than the method by which this ideal is reached. Like Deng Xio Ping said, "it doesn't matter if the cat is white or black. What matters is that it catches mice".

So while you're correct in the academic sense, I think socialism today really does mean various government interventions.

I've personally worked in various government companies created by two socialist governments. My conclusion is that the state should stay the fuck away from running companies. It also makes sense. When government runs companies the incentives are all off. The end customer is always the least important person for a socialist company. The real "customer" is some government functionary. So the entire company is geared toward making that one person happy. The inevitable result is a dysfunctional company where hardly anybody does what they're supposed to. This is true for each of the companies I've ended up in. So I think it's a terrible idea that the government owns the "means of production".

Yes, I too am a socialist. I follow the maxim "a society should be judged on how it treats it's weakest members". As far as I'm concerned that leads to socialism. But not a problem free utopia. That just leads to a whole other set of head-aches. While worth it, a pain.

I think it fair that members of a movement should be those who define it. Imagine what right-wing Yanks would make of 'Islam', or many here of 'Christianity' - let alone what American Fundamentalists would have to say about 'Atheism'.
 
I think it fair that members of a movement should be those who define it. Imagine what right-wing Yanks would make of 'Islam', or many here of 'Christianity' - let alone what American Fundamentalists would have to say about 'Atheism'.

So you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, or what?
 
I think it fair that members of a movement should be those who define it. Imagine what right-wing Yanks would make of 'Islam', or many here of 'Christianity' - let alone what American Fundamentalists would have to say about 'Atheism'.

So you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, or what?

Dunno. I don't know what 'official' might mean.
 
Dunno. I don't know what 'official' might mean.

The academic use up until the 1980'ies or so.

What the Labour Party believed in before being taken over by tory entrists was, 'the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange', and the only other definition that makes sense is, 'Democratic control of society by those who do the work'. Anything else and we are into deliberate mystification by crooks, in my view anyway.
 
The academic use up until the 1980'ies or so.

What the Labour Party believed in before being taken over by tory entrists was, 'the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange', and the only other definition that makes sense is, 'Democratic control of society by those who do the work'. Anything else and we are into deliberate mystification by crooks, in my view anyway.

Isn't regulating it to control it? I think so.
 
What the Labour Party believed in before being taken over by tory entrists was, 'the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange', and the only other definition that makes sense is, 'Democratic control of society by those who do the work'. Anything else and we are into deliberate mystification by crooks, in my view anyway.

Isn't regulating it to control it? I think so.
The only people with the power to control it at the moment are big capitalists, and they have had that power (here anyway) since 1832. All they will regulate is us.
 
Most human beings have a high delta of ignorance and discussing politics with them, or listening to their views, is mostly a waste of time.

How's that for a generalization?

So true. Good metaphore btw, haven't heard that before.
I can't take credit for it unfortunately. I stole it from relatively renowned IT guy Patrick Mckenzie recently.
 
The only people with the power to control it at the moment are big capitalists, and they have had that power (here anyway) since 1832. All they will regulate is us.

Hm.... this thread is badly derailed. I'll stop here.

I've never quite understood what anyone means by 'philosophy' other than studies of the misuse of language, though I once did a course that was puzzingly called 'The English Moralists', for all that it seemed to deal mainly with Ancient Greeks. My English teacher used to quote Aristotle (I think) to the effect that philosophy was a study for old men, and I'm still waiting for my hundredth birthday to get interested. I'd have thought, though, that the question of whether anyone could seriously discuss 'democracy' in a society that was totally owned by the extremely rich, whose ideas dominated all discussion, was relevant to political philosophy.
 
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