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Trump vs The Economists

Cheerful Charlie

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http://time.com/4555032/economists-against-donald-trump/

Three hundred and seventy economists, including eight Nobel Prize winners, co-signed a letter that asserts, “Donald Trump is a dangerous, destructive choice for the country. He misinforms the electorate, degrades trust in public institutions with conspiracy theories, and promotes willful delusion over engagement with reality.”
...
They also write that trade agreements have not cut national income and wealth, which has risen because, as the signatories write, trade is not “zero-sum.” ("Freedom to trade" was on a list of “what America needs” in a September statement of concern about “Hillary Clinton’s economic agenda” signed by 300 economists. An Oct. 31 statement by 19 Nobel laureates in economics decried Trump's "reckless threats to start trade wars with several of our largest trading partners.")


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It is going to be interesting to see if Trump and his cabinet and the GOP Congress listen to the economists or ignore then like Bush did.

It seems to me interesting that the MSM did not follow up on this more than they did. If Trump and the GOP blow it again, we will take years to dig out from under another series of ignorant and destructive blunders.

Economics is where the road meets the rubber. This is where foolish policies really hurt the nation. I don't see much chance that this collision with incompetence can be avoided.
 
You got a lot of people who voted for him that are still 100% behind him.

Just being dangerous in rhetoric is not enough.

He has to do something.

I know the "human" behind this nonsense about Obama wiretapping Trump Tower, Mark Levin.

An unhinged, despicable, howling and lying ultra-Republican partisan.

If you believe a word he says without fact checking you are certainly dangerous.

If you accuse the former president of crimes he can't physically commit you are ignorant.

But go back to the first sentence.

All that Trump does and says is for the people who voted for him.

And they listen to Trump, not economists.

The are suspicious of brainy Nobel Prize winners with all their fancy logic.
 
Guess who awards the Nobel prizes? Sweden. And just look at what happened in Sweden yesterday on Fox, do you really want to take advice from those guys?
 
Guess who awards the Nobel prizes? Sweden. And just look at what happened in Sweden yesterday on Fox, do you really want to take advice from those guys?

What happened to Sweden on a television show?
 
http://time.com/4555032/economists-against-donald-trump/

Three hundred and seventy economists, including eight Nobel Prize winners, co-signed a letter that asserts, “Donald Trump is a dangerous, destructive choice for the country. He misinforms the electorate, degrades trust in public institutions with conspiracy theories, and promotes willful delusion over engagement with reality.”
...
They also write that trade agreements have not cut national income and wealth, which has risen because, as the signatories write, trade is not “zero-sum.” ("Freedom to trade" was on a list of “what America needs” in a September statement of concern about “Hillary Clinton’s economic agenda” signed by 300 economists. An Oct. 31 statement by 19 Nobel laureates in economics decried Trump's "reckless threats to start trade wars with several of our largest trading partners.")


----------

It is going to be interesting to see if Trump and his cabinet and the GOP Congress listen to the economists or ignore then like Bush did.

It seems to me interesting that the MSM did not follow up on this more than they did. If Trump and the GOP blow it again, we will take years to dig out from under another series of ignorant and destructive blunders.

Economics is where the road meets the rubber. This is where foolish policies really hurt the nation. I don't see much chance that this collision with incompetence can be avoided.

It isn't just Trump, over the last thirty years or so the Republican party and movement conservatism have slowly but ever increasingly disassociated themselves from reality. Trumpism is the inevitable result of this process, a political philosophy built solely on lies and fantasies, that boldly dismisses any fact that stands in the way of its ideology, which is to direct as much of the economic surplus to the already rich as possible.

Conservatives are suppose to be the ones who tell us that we are moving too fast and that we don't need to change. The Republicans have moved past conservatism, to being full blown reactionaries. They are trying to rollback changes to a past that only existed in their collective imaginations.

But economists have to share part of the blame for Trumpism. Beyond a few far right fringe groups, i.e. the Austrian/Libertarian economics, I see no support for the fantasy of a self-regulating free market in mainstream economics today. What little there was died in the Great Financial Crisis and Recession*. And yet economists have allowed the fantasy to persist in the political economics without any real pushback from mainstream economics, largely because there is no consensus with what to replace it.

And yet, still the self-organizing, self-regulating free market, little or no government intervention in the economy, free trade, and even the return to the gold standard, which has been in a plank in every Republican presidential platform since at least 2004, remain the very core of Republican policies and thinking.

================================

* cite for example,  Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel prize winning economist of Columbia University, past Chairman of the President's Council of Economic Advisors and former Chief Economist of the World Bank, wrote in a forward for a new edition of Karl Polanyi's The Great Transformation, in 2001,

... Polanyi wrote The Great Transformation [1944, sd] before modern economists clarified the limitations of self-regulating markets. Today, there is no respectable intellectual support for the proposition that markets, by themselves, lead to efficient, let alone equitable outcomes. Whenever information is imperfect or markets are incomplete—that is, essentially always—interventions exist that in principle could improve the efficiency of resource allocation. We have moved, by and large, to a more balanced position, one that recognizes both the power and the limitations of markets, and the necessity that government play a large role in the economy, though the bounds of that role remain in dispute. ...

Believers in self- regulating markets implicitly believed in a kind of Say's law, that the supply of labor would create its own demand. For capitalists who thrive off of low wages, the high unemployment may even be a benefit, as it puts downward pressure on workers' wage demands. But for economists, the unemployed workers demonstrate a malfunctioning economy, and in all too many countries we see overwhelming evidence of this and other malfunctions. Some advocates of the self- regulating economy put part of the blame for these malfunctions on government itself; but whether this is true or not, the point is that the myth of the self-regulating economy is, today, virtually dead.

I have attached the forward to The Great Transformation, here, View attachment The Great Transformation- Polanyi_Forward only1.pdf, but the entire book is well worth reading. Polanyi was a economics historian, and this his greatest work, tracing the impact of the classical liberals' economics on Europe in the 19th century, producing the Gilded Age and spurring colonialism, and contributing to the causes of World Wars I and II. It should be required reading for students of economics as well as everyone who reads Hayek's The Road to Serfdom, written the same year, 1944, in which Hayek made the failed prediction that the New Deal would turn the US into a totalitarian dictatorship. In contrast, Polanyi's predictions have come true repeatedly, the last being The Great Recession, the effects of which we still struggle to escape from.

A simple google search will turn up numerous e-copies of the book for download, all probably illegal.
 
Guess who awards the Nobel prizes? Sweden. And just look at what happened in Sweden yesterday on Fox, do you really want to take advice from those guys?

What happened to Sweden on a television show?

Everyone there died. They were killed by illegal immigrants because they didn't have guns to protect themselves.

Do you hate American so much that you want the same thing to happen to the people there? :mad:
 
Pres. Clinton rose taxes and the biggest non-war economic boom in our history followed (I'm not saying the tax hike created the Internet industry, just that despite the alleged economic consequences of higher taxes, the Internet Industry still developed). W cut the taxes "big time" and that was followed by the worst economic situation the planet had seen since before WWII (this isn't saying the tax cut caused the Great Recession, only that it didn't prevent it, nor did it even create an economic boom). Republican states across the nation are seeing shortfalls in revenue despite continued pressing on with tax cuts.

Republicans still feign "surprise" when revenues don't increase with tax cuts. But that really is the point, isn't it. Starve the beast, cut more spending, cut more taxes, let the states decide... (oh wait... we are the states!), repeat.

And the fucking idiot voters buy every time.
 
Pres. Clinton rose taxes and the biggest non-war economic boom bubble in our history followed coincided (I'm not saying the tax hike created the Internet industry, just that despite the alleged economic consequences of higher taxes, the Internet Industry still developed). W cut the taxes "big time" and that was followed by the worst economic situation the planet had seen since before WWII (this isn't saying the tax cut caused the Great Recession, only that it didn't prevent it, nor did it even create an economic boom). Republican states across the nation are seeing shortfalls in revenue despite continued pressing on with tax cuts.

Republicans still feign "surprise" when revenues don't increase with tax cuts. But that really is the point, isn't it. Starve the beast, cut more spending, cut more taxes, let the states decide... (oh wait... we are the states!), repeat.

And the fucking idiot voters buy every time.

Fixed for you
 
http://time.com/4555032/economists-against-donald-trump/

Three hundred and seventy economists, including eight Nobel Prize winners, co-signed a letter that asserts, “Donald Trump is a dangerous, destructive choice for the country. He misinforms the electorate, degrades trust in public institutions with conspiracy theories, and promotes willful delusion over engagement with reality.”
...
They also write that trade agreements have not cut national income and wealth, which has risen because, as the signatories write, trade is not “zero-sum.” ("Freedom to trade" was on a list of “what America needs” in a September statement of concern about “Hillary Clinton’s economic agenda” signed by 300 economists. An Oct. 31 statement by 19 Nobel laureates in economics decried Trump's "reckless threats to start trade wars with several of our largest trading partners.")


----------

It is going to be interesting to see if Trump and his cabinet and the GOP Congress listen to the economists or ignore then like Bush did.

It seems to me interesting that the MSM did not follow up on this more than they did. If Trump and the GOP blow it again, we will take years to dig out from under another series of ignorant and destructive blunders.

Economics is where the road meets the rubber. This is where foolish policies really hurt the nation. I don't see much chance that this collision with incompetence can be avoided.

Views and philosophies depend on the political leaning of the Economist. A Marxist economist, Liberal economist and Conservative economist will see things differently. So a Marxist may call some Liberal and more so, right centre economical structures foolish and wrong at times.
 
The problem is, conservative economists have a not so good track record of being wrong rather a lot. And yet, people still pay attention to them for some ideological reason. This gives you situations like Brownback's Kamsas and Jindal's Louisana. Why does anybody listen to Arthur Laffer?

When you have 19 Nobel laureates telling you that you are wrong, perhaps we should take them seriously. We speak of pseudo-science, wrongheaded woo dressed up in scientific jargon, pretending to be science. We need to start paying attention to the phenomena of pseudo-economics. The crap based on ideology that has a long proven track record of being wrong and foolish.

And looking to see what politicians are partial to pseudo-economics as young earth creationists are to some incompetent science teachers in our schools.
 
Nobel Prize winners do not mean a thing to Trump supporters. They're still mocking that whole institution since it awarded Obama the Nobel Prize. In their blinkered eyes, that discredited the whole bunch.
 
Where were these economists $20 trillion ago? Too little too late.


When Bush came up with his tax cut plan that smothered us in deficits, a large contingent of eminent economists including ten Nobel Laureates signed a letter warning us his plans would fail and create massive deficits.

The GOP dominated House and Senate and Bush ignored them. This the Republican way. Trump and crew are simply repeating the same mistakes. It's the Republican way. The GOP only listens to kook economists and discredited economic ideas with long histories of failure. It's the Republican way.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economists'_statement_opposing_the_Bush_tax_cuts

The Economists' statement opposing the Bush tax cuts was a statement signed by roughly 450 economists, including ten of the twenty-four American Nobel Prize laureates alive at the time, in February 2003 who urged the U.S. President George W. Bush not to enact the 2003 tax cuts; seeking and sought to gather public support for the position. The statement was printed as a full-page ad in The New York Times and released to the public through the Economic Policy Institute. According to the statement, the 450 plus economists who signed the statement believe that the 2003 Bush tax cuts will increase inequality and the budget deficit, decreasing the ability of the U.S. government to fund essential services, while failing to produce economic growth.[1][2]

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Trump and crew will Brownback the U.S. economy and they won't be detered by anybody.

 
You know how Hollywood celeb's mocking Trump and his supporters, or wagging the moral finger, just strengthens his hand? And the celeb's don't seem to get it? This is like that. Or worse. While Miley Cyrus displays as much insight as economists into the discontent of people scraping by in the rust belt, at least she isn't in large part responsible.

No one has done more to "misinform the electorate, degrade trust in public institutions and promote willful delusion over engagement with reality" than economists. The Donald and his bullshit are the end result of their bullshit, and they should just pipe down for everyone's sake.
 
Nobel Prize winners do not mean a thing to Trump supporters. They're still mocking that whole institution since it awarded Obama the Nobel Prize. In their blinkered eyes, that discredited the whole bunch.
Nobel in Peace, literature and to a large degree economics are bullshit.
 
Nobel Prize winners do not mean a thing to Trump supporters. They're still mocking that whole institution since it awarded Obama the Nobel Prize. In their blinkered eyes, that discredited the whole bunch.
Nobel in Peace, literature and to a large degree economics are bullshit.

Obama wins a peace prize but brought peace to no region.

He won it because he did not talk like a belligerent bully like Bush.

Now we are back to the belligerent bully.

Literature prizes have much higher standards than peace prizes, but it is about taste, nothing that can be demonstrated.

And prizes in economics are real, they represent real theories than many times have no real world application or only apply to a specific type of economic system with specific economic arrangements.
 
Nobel in Peace, literature and to a large degree economics are bullshit.

Obama wins a peace prize but brought peace to no region.

He won it because he did not talk like a belligerent bully like Bush.

Now we are back to the belligerent bully.

Literature prizes have much higher standards than peace prizes, but it is about taste, nothing that can be demonstrated.

And prizes in economics are real, they represent real theories than many times have no real world application or only apply to a specific type of economic system with specific economic arrangements.
The thing which ruined nobel in economics for me were these two Nobel laureates which went to work for some Hedge fund which then went bust. I don't know if they were the cause, my main grudge is the fact these two assholes thought that Hedge funds are somehow good idea and really needed for the economy.
 
Where were these economists $20 trillion ago? Too little too late.


When Bush came up with his tax cut plan that smothered us in deficits, a large contingent of eminent economists including ten Nobel Laureates signed a letter warning us his plans would fail and create massive deficits.

The GOP dominated House and Senate and Bush ignored them. This the Republican way. Trump and crew are simply repeating the same mistakes. It's the Republican way. The GOP only listens to kook economists and discredited economic ideas with long histories of failure. It's the Republican way.

It's not that they ignored the economists, it was the deficits were intentional. They can then point to those deficits as the reason they have to cut the programs they want to cut.
 
Nobel Prize winners do not mean a thing to Trump supporters. They're still mocking that whole institution since it awarded Obama the Nobel Prize. In their blinkered eyes, that discredited the whole bunch.
Nobel in Peace, literature and to a large degree economics are bullshit.

Trump supporters are not a discerning bunch.
 
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