When Soviet Living Standards Will Be better

[BH]

Serious question.

How bad will things have to get before Soviet living standards, or standards would have been if the USSR had not dissolved, are better than what we have over here?

 

[zorq]

Serious question.

How bad will things have to get before Soviet living standards, or standards would have been if the USSR had not dissolved, are better than what we have over here?

While trying to parse your sentence, I came up with two questions:
1. How bad will things in the Western World countries have to get before the folks in Russia and other ex-Soviet nations have a better standard of living?
2. What would the standard of living in the USSR be if, hypothetically, it was still functioning under it's old communist totalitarian government to this day?

I'm really bad at hypotheticals and I'm not much of a scholar of 20th century USSR economics so I really can't answer your questions.

But I'll say this: We live in a "world economy" today. Any dramatic corrosion of western economies will likely also negatively affect the economies of Ex-Soviet nations, so it would have to be a really unusual economic disaster that didn't affect the ex-Soviets or the disaster would have to be REALLY bad to level the playing field.

 

[barbos]

Serious question.

How bad will things have to get before Soviet living standards, or standards would have been if the USSR had not dissolved, are better than what we have over here?

Are you afraid of Bernie Sanders?

 

[Canard DuJour]

Serious question.

How bad will things have to get before Soviet living standards, or standards would have been if the USSR had not dissolved, are better than what we have over here?

I think I see what you're asking

During the post-war decades, living standards improved markedly faster in, say, the US and UK than in the Soviet Union. Since about the dissolution of the Soviet Union, however, living standards here have stagnated for most and declined for some. Theoretically at some point, the Soviet Union might have caught up or shown signs of doing so.

Interesting question. Thing is, ironically, the fall of the Soviet Union probably has a lot to do with stagnant living standards here. It was taken as an ideological victory and carte blanche for the kinds of policies which have suppressed wages in favour of profits here. Policies which would have been unacceptable during the post-war decades.

Disaster capitalism and all that..

 

[barbos]

It's all relative. As someone who had lived through late Soviet Union and early Russia I can assure you US is doing well, and it will do well unless Yellowstone decides to erupt.

 

[Derec]

During the post-war decades, living standards improved markedly faster in, say, the US and UK than in the Soviet Union. Since about the dissolution of the Soviet Union, however, living standards here have stagnated for most and declined for some. Theoretically at some point, the Soviet Union might have caught up or shown signs of doing so.

USSR did not collapse for no reason. It was done economically. Unless USSR had pulled a China and became "communism in name only" I do not see how the Soviet model could have continued, much less prospered.
That said, even with economic reforms you would have the centrifugal forces of non-Russian countries seeking independence. They were only part of USSR because Russia had conquered them in the 18th and 19th centuries after all.

 

[funinspace]

Serious question.

How bad will things have to get before Soviet living standards, or standards would have been if the USSR had not dissolved, are better than what we have over here?

Russia has generally recovered to above where they were before the collapse of the USSR. Not by a lot, but certainly quite a bit from the bottom. As compared to the west, it ain't going nowhere until it stops being the worlds largest mafia and gets a stable government with rules with manageable corruption levels.

A couple metrics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demog...e:Russian_male_and_female_life_expectancy.PNG
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-per-capita

 

[dismal]

The rule of law and individual property rights are very important to prosperity. I spent some time there shorty after the fall of communism and it's hard to underestimate what decades of communism did to the culture and mindset of the people there. In business situations they just did not think and act the same way as westerners. It was all about being in control of some committee to them, not creating and honoring contracts where there is mutual benefit. I think it will take a generation or two for this mindset to be unlearned. But it's not even clear how much it is taking hold. I think the perceived unfairness of the privatization process provoked a backlash that set them back a few decades.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I think the OP is about American standards, not Soviet.

IOW, how long before US standards are as low as they would've been had we gone Soviet.

Or, at what point would a Soviet standard of living appear attractive to Americans.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Serious question.

How bad will things have to get before Soviet living standards, or standards would have been if the USSR had not dissolved, are better than what we have over here?

Ask that to the steel-workers down the road from me that have been locked out for going on a year. Of course they deserved it. They wouldn't get serious about a contract and they all knew they were making tons of money while doing very little to earn it. For most of them the party is over, the great bennies, decades of tariff protection, high wages. They'll have to actually go out and take a job where they have to work, like what I do. Mercy.

 

[dismal]

I think the OP is about American standards, not Soviet.

IOW, how long before US standards are as low as they would've been had we gone Soviet.

Or, at what point would a Soviet standard of living appear attractive to Americans.

That particular question would require ignoring all the data we have on GDP per capita history and trends.

The advantage in US GDP per capita over Russia is large and growing, not shrinking.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/e...USA:RUS&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

 

[coloradoatheist]

To know this, we would really need to understand what the living standards were in the USSR. We only got glimpses and rumors.

 

[Valjean]

Does it matter?
As long as 95% of US media is owned and controlled by a handful of corporations, Americans are unlikely to become aware of their relative poverty.
Remember your average soviet wasn't aware of the great discrepancy between Soviet and Western living standards 50 years ago. Media depicted the West as dangerous, debauched and decadent.

 

[barbos]

I think the OP is about American standards, not Soviet.

IOW, how long before US standards are as low as they would've been had we gone Soviet.

Or, at what point would a Soviet standard of living appear attractive to Americans.

That particular question would require ignoring all the data we have on GDP per capita history and trends.

The advantage in US GDP per capita over Russia is large and growing, not shrinking.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/e...USA:RUS&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

Actually between 1990 and now Russian GDP grew more than US one.

- - - Updated - - -

Does it matter?
As long as 95% of US media is owned and controlled by a handful of corporations, Americans are unlikely to become aware of their relative poverty.
Remember your average soviet wasn't aware of the great discrepancy between Soviet and Western living standards 50 years ago. Media depicted the West as dangerous, debauched and decadent.

50 years ago USSR was not that bad compared to US. I mean it was bad not as bad as in the end.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Does it matter?
As long as 95% of US media is owned and controlled by a handful of corporations, Americans are unlikely to become aware of their relative poverty.
Remember your average soviet wasn't aware of the great discrepancy between Soviet and Western living standards 50 years ago. Media depicted the West as dangerous, debauched and decadent.

And the same thing could be said for the opposite. Our media presents a very bleak picture that isn't there.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I think the OP is about American standards, not Soviet.

IOW, how long before US standards are as low as they would've been had we gone Soviet.

Or, at what point would a Soviet standard of living appear attractive to Americans.

That particular question would require ignoring all the data we have on GDP per capita history and trends.

The advantage in US GDP per capita over Russia is large and growing, not shrinking.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/e...USA:RUS&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

Thank you, Minister of Truth.

And here I was all worried about income inequality and where it might lead.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

That particular question would require ignoring all the data we have on GDP per capita history and trends.

The advantage in US GDP per capita over Russia is large and growing, not shrinking.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/e...USA:RUS&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

Thank you, Minister of Truth.

And here I was all worried about income inequality and where it might lead.

It will lead to where it always leads, revolution in the end. Whether that revolution is peaceful or not is another issue.

 

[dismal]

That particular question would require ignoring all the data we have on GDP per capita history and trends.

The advantage in US GDP per capita over Russia is large and growing, not shrinking.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/e...USA:RUS&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

Actually between 1990 and now Russian GDP grew more than US one.

According to graph I linked US GDP per capital grew by $31,000 since 1990 (to $54,600) and Russian GDP per capita is $12,700.

 

[fromderinside]

Thank you, Minister of Truth.

And here I was all worried about income inequality and where it might lead.

It will lead to where it always leads, revolution in the end. Whether that revolution is peaceful or not is another issue.

Takes a lot to get Russians up to revolting. Last revolution took WWI. Russia has never had a proper capitalistic base, in fact it seems to still be a culture based on obedience to a central figure and ethnicity over most any other value. We're not great at ignoring those here, but, even with just current anger over changes in self views in American we're a lot closer to some sort of revolt than are the Russians.

My question is is it better mine, mine, mine, or is it better leader, leader, leader.

 

[KeepTalking]

It will lead to where it always leads, revolution in the end. Whether that revolution is peaceful or not is another issue.

Takes a lot to get Russians up to revolting. Last revolution took WWI. Russia has never had a proper capitalistic base, in fact it seems to still be a culture based on obedience to a central figure and ethnicity over most any other value. We're not great at ignoring those here, but, even with just current anger over changes in self views in American we're a lot closer to some sort of revolt than are the Russians.

I'm pretty sure that was his point.