Why Atheists need to promote Atheism

[Ramaraksha]

There are some Atheists, well maybe a lot of them, who say I am not a Theist, i don't have to spread my views on religion or non-religion. Well, i hope i can change your mind. Here are my reasons:

1. Violence - well, let's face it, violence works. Reason why you see so much religious violence these days is because if we look at the past we see it has worked. The Spanish landed in mexico, killed, tortured anyone and everyone still clinging to their home-grown religions - well, today? Mexico is overwhelmingly catholic or christian. Few are crying over their lost heritage and their murdered ancestors
In the middle ages, plenty of people were tortured and killed for not believing - remember the church used to have a standing army - it was used to hunt down non-believers - well until the recent gains of atheism in Europe it was overwhelmingly christian. Europe is moving more towards Atheism not because they were disgusted by the violence that was used in ancient times - it is long forgotten
Where are the Buddhas from Christian or muslim lands? none! Why? Because they never got off the ground - if anyone dared to preach a different religion they were either killed or tortured into silence. Even today you can't preach any other faith besides islam in islamic lands. The Buddha was lucky, he was born in Hindu India. Sikhs had not one but 10 Gurus - they all went around Hindu India preaching their faith - do we get even an acknowledgement of thanks from either one of these faiths? Nope!

2. Media Bias - Recently two murderous incidents happened - in California a couple shot their co-workers to death and around the same time, a guy shot down 3 people at a planned parenthood facility in Colorado. You heard about the first couple's religion - you guessed it - islam, but guess the religion of the guy who killed 3 people? You probably can't recall because the media made sure that info wouldn't get out - he was an Evangelical Christian who believed that abortion clinics were baby-killers

Try reading coverage of religious violence incidents more closely next time - if it happens in the US or Europe - say jews being attacked etc - it will be put down to right-wingers, nazi sympathizers etc - any attack on a minority anywhere else and suddenly religion will show up

3. Climate change or Global warming - this is the biggest fear for me. We already have seen these crazy nuts who show up every time there is a natural disaster - "we are being punished by God - God's wrath - because..." well, fill in the blanks - and the way to please this angry master is to kneel down like a slave and join their religion. I am afraid that if climate change comes true and there are lots more natural disasters, these shrill voices will only grow louder and fear will make people join them. But then the disasters won't stop because of their stupid groveling to the master - then what? "Well, it is because of these Atheists - they are not kneeling to the master - master is angry that they exist - so he is punishing us" - and so then the mass killing will start - not only Atheists but of course all minority religious people in their respective countries, gays - all will be mass murdered

4. Violence against Atheists & Gays - it is already happening - read how in Nigeria gays and Atheists are being hunted down - Atheists live in fear in a lot of islamic countries (yes the religion of peace). They need your help and support. If you can't speak up, vote with your wallet if you can

5. Grandkids - if you don't speak up, you end up dying as just a statistic - you might still see the day when your grandkids might condemn you to hell and all your beliefs are just a memory. We have kids not just to pass on our Genes but some part of who we were. It's not just the outer shell and the last name that you leave behind but also what is inside - the latter is far more important than the first two

6. Better World - we can all agree that Atheist Societies are far better than any religious society. I am particularly scared of the Master/Slave religions - what we see in islamic countries happened in christian lands some time ago and as i have mentioned violence works and all you need is the media to cover your back - to this day they keep repeating the mantra that somehow Hitler alone was responsible for killing 6 million jews - Hitler had plenty of willing help - that was not the first time jews faced pogroms in Europe - they have faced mass murder and discrimination for over 2,000 years - all that hate nurtured and kept alive by the church all these years

The silly idea that religious people are somehow more moral is because they are the ones writing this stuff up - "The victors write History books" - well religious people are writing these articles, patting themselves on the back

7. Science - well maybe the best for last? We know the attacks against Science are being led by religious nut jobs. What we have here is a fear that Science keeps pushing God farther and farther away- they really don't want God - they want the comfy magic Sugar Daddy land that their religions promise he runs - God has nothing better to do than keep billions in happy comfort for eternity - yes sir that is the Grand Plan. You would think how could any intelligent person believe such a thing but as we know millions - even the highly educated ones - do believe - ready and happy to drink the kool-aid of heaven. The more Science keeps explaining things, the more we know about the universe, the less and less the chances of a happy magic Sugar Daddy land where they hope to get the easy after life - that is behind these attacks. And if climate change does happen, we just might lose it all. History might yet judge us as the failed people who did nothing when we could have

 

[Atheos]

Media Bias - Recently two murderous incidents happened - in California a couple shot their co-workers to death and around the same time, a guy shot down 3 people at a planned parenthood facility in Colorado. You heard about the first couple's religion - you guessed it - islam, but guess the religion of the guy who killed 3 people? You probably can't recall because the media made sure that info wouldn't get out - he was an Evangelical Christian who believed that abortion clinics were baby-killers

I call bullshit. Everyone knows dude wasn't a Christian. True Muslims shoot people. True Christians would never act like that.



The above is total parody, just in case anyone couldn't already tell. Poe's law has a wide jurisdiction.

 

[Keith&Co.]

5. Grandkids - if you don't speak up, you end up dying as just a statistic - you might still see the day when your grandkids might condemn you to hell and all your beliefs are just a memory.

Not really seeing why I should give a fuck?

I'll be remembered. if only for my kids complaining about how they were raised. And telling stories of crazy stuff Dad used to do. And I want my ashes packed with a plastic eyeball, one of those toys that floats inside a plastic case, always looking up, so when the kids get curious and open the jar, there i'll be, just at the top of the ashes, staring up at them, making them shit their pants. I like the idea of that.
Whether or not they're ever attracted to superstition or religion, that's between them and their consciences. I don't really have the hubris to think that my kids' kids HAVE to join the military, or marry interracially, or vote Democratic for the most part, or work as a government contractor... I would HOPE that whatever their spiritual outlook, they'll come by it honestly and as a result of reason and whatever evidence is available to them. But why would I want to dictate that?

I guess in general, it's not a decision that I feel _I_ need to make for anyone else. That's an evangelical or fundamentalist position.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Media Bias - Recently two murderous incidents happened - in California a couple shot their co-workers to death and around the same time, a guy shot down 3 people at a planned parenthood facility in Colorado. You heard about the first couple's religion - you guessed it - islam, but guess the religion of the guy who killed 3 people? You probably can't recall because the media made sure that info wouldn't get out - he was an Evangelical Christian who believed that abortion clinics were baby-killers

I call bullshit. Everyone knows dude wasn't a Christian. True Muslims shoot people. True Christians would never act like that.



The above is total parody, just in case anyone couldn't already tell. Poe's law has a wide jurisdiction.

Fabulous - like the co-worker who is never found when mistakes happen but is the first to come forward to take credit when things go right. When Christians do bad things, they are not christian but good things? happy to take credit? Other religions of course don't get the same rights

This is the brainwashed bias of christians

 

[Ramaraksha]

5. Grandkids - if you don't speak up, you end up dying as just a statistic - you might still see the day when your grandkids might condemn you to hell and all your beliefs are just a memory.

Not really seeing why I should give a fuck?

I'll be remembered. if only for my kids complaining about how they were raised. And telling stories of crazy stuff Dad used to do. And I want my ashes packed with a plastic eyeball, one of those toys that floats inside a plastic case, always looking up, so when the kids get curious and open the jar, there i'll be, just at the top of the ashes, staring up at them, making them shit their pants. I like the idea of that.
Whether or not they're ever attracted to superstition or religion, that's between them and their consciences. I don't really have the hubris to think that my kids' kids HAVE to join the military, or marry interracially, or vote Democratic for the most part, or work as a government contractor... I would HOPE that whatever their spiritual outlook, they'll come by it honestly and as a result of reason and whatever evidence is available to them. But why would I want to dictate that?

I guess in general, it's not a decision that I feel _I_ need to make for anyone else. That's an evangelical or fundamentalist position.

Did you finish reading the entire post? Your children not only share your genes and your last name but they are also a reflection of who you are - what you are about. A Christian has no problem pushing his religion down to his children - starting at a very young age and here you are afraid and running away from teaching your kids your values in life. When you do that you play right into their hands - you know that your kids as they grow up will be subject to religious indoctrination - strictly from the believer's point of view - a slave point of view - how master will give endless rewards if you only choose to believe - why a Super being finds belief so important none of the brainwashed seem to question. Like a King who demands loyalty - we know why a king would do that - he risks his crown if he harbors disloyal people - these religions were born when kings ruled and they accepted that idea + religions have a vested interest in pushing belief - they gain committed followers - they gain wealth the power - after all they don't push any kind of belief - you have to believe in THEIR God, use only the name they supply, must follow only their religion etc

Was watching a documentary on North Korea - it's on Netflix - see it if you get a chance - the very same brainwashed language - "we are so happy because of the teaching of our great leader etc etc" - is that any way for anyone to live? Save your kids from being brainwashed - it is very tempting to give in - religions make it that way - all you have to do is believe and a pleased God will make life wonderful for you - again i see the same language coming from North Korea

 

[Keith&Co.]

and here you are afraid and running away from teaching your kids your values in life.

Wrong.
I never said anything about not teaching my kids my values.
I'm raising them, i cannot HELP but teach them my values.
I just don't, and won't, do it out of a concern that my grandkids might not agree with me. And if my kids make a positive choice that's different from mine, i'm actually going to consider that a win.

But, you go ahead with your own interpretation of what I'm doing, if that makes you feel any better.

 

[ronburgundy]

and here you are afraid and running away from teaching your kids your values in life.

Wrong.
I never said anything about not teaching my kids my values.
I'm raising them, i cannot HELP but teach them my values.
I just don't, and won't, do it out of a concern that my grandkids might not agree with me. And if my kids make a positive choice that's different from mine, i'm actually going to consider that a win.

But, you go ahead with your own interpretation of what I'm doing, if that makes you feel any better.

I mostly agree with you, except for the bolded part. I agree that one's kids being different from oneself is not itself a good reason to encourage atheism, and no type of reason is sufficient to justify forcing atheism on them in the manipulative/coercive manner that theists use on their kids.

However, I consider it a moral obligation to instill the capacity and appreciation for reasoned thought in my kids, as much it is an obligation to educate them about anything or encourage moral development. In fact, theism directly undermines moral development. Acting in ways that one believes helps and doesn't harm other is not sufficient for moral action, if one did not make a rational effort to form accurate beliefs about what helps and harms others. God is an absurd idea requiring reason-eroding faith to hold and maintain. So, one's child being a theist indicates a failure to instill a minimal commitment to the principles of reasoned thought and intellectual honesty that will impact many areas of their life (and impact others your kids impact).

In addition, virtually no one come to accept a particular theism by "a positive choice". A longing for some vague sense of meaning is not the same as theism. Being such an irrational idea, when theism is formed from that longing, it is always a product of easily manipulated emotions and social coercion. So your kids becoming theists means that rejected the principles of honest reasoned thought in favor being the emotional plaything of others. I don't see how that can be interpreted as "a win" as a parent.

That said, parenting has only limited potential ability to counter the other forces pushing toward unreason and theism. So, it is not a parenting failure on par with failing to provide nutrition or something. But since I think theism and its requisite anti-reason faith does far more harm in the world than good, I would feel notably more negative about sending yet another theists into the world to further fuel its dominance than I would about contributing an atheist to stem the tide. Again, reason cannot be forced, so one shouldn't use coercion and thus undermine any difference between sending a theist or atheist out into the world.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So I go to the door, introduce myself and ask "Have you ever not heard of the existence of god(s)?"

 

[ronburgundy]

So I go to the door, introduce myself and ask "Have you ever not heard of the existence of god(s)?"

No, you just publicly critique the implausibility and the immorality of the God concepts that are actually accepted and believed in. Anything that prompts people to be less likely to believe in any God is a promotion of atheism, because it promotes the psychological state that lacks belief in Gods. Given the countless coercive forces that promote belief in God within majority theistic societies, active critique of theism is neccessary just to give people a fighting chance to be able to reason about the concept for themselves.

 

[4321lynx]

So I go to the door, introduce myself and ask "Have you ever not heard of the existence of god(s)?"

No, you just publicly critique the implausibility and the immorality of the God concepts that are actually accepted and believed in. Anything that prompts people to be less likely to believe in any God is a promotion of atheism, because it promotes the psychological state that lacks belief in Gods. Given the countless coercive forces that promote belief in God within majority theistic societies, active critique of theism is neccessary just to give people a fighting chance to be able to reason about the concept for themselves.

Yes. But it solves no problem.

Because the problems are the men and women, but mainly men, who invented the gods; not the fictitious gods or the fictitious religion that pays homage, or lip service, or eye service, to those gods; the men and women who use religion to forward their ambitions, their various agendas. And atheists are not immune to such failings.

 

[ronburgundy]

No, you just publicly critique the implausibility and the immorality of the God concepts that are actually accepted and believed in. Anything that prompts people to be less likely to believe in any God is a promotion of atheism, because it promotes the psychological state that lacks belief in Gods. Given the countless coercive forces that promote belief in God within majority theistic societies, active critique of theism is neccessary just to give people a fighting chance to be able to reason about the concept for themselves.

Yes. But it solves no problem.

Because the problems are the men and women, but mainly men, who invented the gods; not the fictitious gods or the fictitious religion that pays homage, or lip service, or eye service, to those gods; the men and women who use religion to forward their ambitions, their various agendas. And atheists are not immune to such failings.

It reduces the problem in the same way that reducing exposure to the worst toxins reduces the problem of cancer, despite not "solving" it. It is analogous (and relates even in some literal ways) to dictatorships as a form of governance. Those who promote dictatorships would still be around and a problem even if we got rid of dictatorships, and democracies with constitutional protections don't "solve" all the problems that dictatorships enhance. But getting rid of them is still a good idea and reduces the problems.
Theism is not just a symptom, it is an enabling cause of unreason and authoritarianism. It is not the sole cause, but it is a major enhancer and exacerbator of the problem. Ideas matter. They impact emotional and behavioral responses. The reason that God is pushed so aggressively and widely is that no idea works better to promote the coercive control that those who promote it seek to have. Theism requires promotion of both authoritarianism and unreason. Thus, getting rid of theism will not guarantee an absence of these harmful things, but it increases the odds of reducing and containing them.

If your son is eating lead paint, wouldn't you stop him? Sure, it doesn't "solve" the problem of him getting exposed to other things and maybe he'll start drinking the mercury from thermometers instead. But the reality is that he is likely to wind up far healthier if you stop him from eating lead paint than if you don't.

 

[4321lynx]

God being pushed aggressively nowadays is mainly an American, Evangelistic problem.

Elsewhere, even the Vatican for all its faults is not nearly as aggressive. Its messages now are almost Christian. No lead paint on the Popemobile.

Birth control, priest marriage, yes, still pretty toxic there. Child abuse -- ?? improving attitude.

 

[ronburgundy]

God being pushed aggressively nowadays is mainly an American, Evangelistic problem.

God is pushed pretty damn aggressively whenever there are actual believers, which means Islamic countries, Israel, and by "Evangelicals" who are among the few Christians in the west that still take Christianity seriously. Closely related tothe what I said in the thread about atheism in ancient societies, monotheism is inherently aggressive but the rise of secular values related to personal liberty and reason have constrained Christianity and watered it down. Most "Christians" in the west are superficially so, getting most their values from secular society and ignoring most of what the Bible and Christian authorities have to say. It is no coincidence that the Christians who still most often refer to the Bible and defer to church authority are the most aggressive, because aggression is inherent to Christianity's core ideas. So if you take those ideas seriously, you tend to aggressively push it onto others.
Also, a pervasive cultural bias exists that excuses theist aggression. Every single week, tens of thousands of religious leaders attack atheists in ways far worse than any of the "militant" atheists ever have. These include most of the so-called "liberal" or "moderate" priests. The core ideas of belief is required for salvation is aggressive and an attack on non-belief. It is impossible for preachers to talk about the core ideas of the religion without promoting aggressive threats and intolerance. Yet, Dawkins is attacked even by secularist as an "extremist" while they then defend far more aggressive "moderate" Christians as not being a problem.

Also, even without aggressive promotion, theism spreads like a psychological disease by appealing to common fears and egoistic tendencies in people. Thus, just like social ethics need to be actively encouraged to reduce immoral actions, theism needs to be actively critiqued or emotional bias will tend to favor it and thus its negative consequences.

 

[ideologyhunter]

In an era of stagnant living standards in the west, expect more religiosity (and more fury, in general). The prez was right about people clinging to their religion. (It's also amazing how the religious right praises those with staunch faith -- 'devout' this-or-thats -- but they've taken 'clinging to religion' as an arrogant slur.)

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes. But it solves no problem.

Because the problems are the men and women, but mainly men, who invented the gods; not the fictitious gods or the fictitious religion that pays homage, or lip service, or eye service, to those gods; the men and women who use religion to forward their ambitions, their various agendas. And atheists are not immune to such failings.

It reduces the problem in the same way that reducing exposure to the worst toxins reduces the problem of cancer, despite not "solving" it.

No. Religion is an excuse for immorality, not the cause of it. Humanity and our unintelligently designed brains is the cause of immorality.

 

[ronburgundy]

It reduces the problem in the same way that reducing exposure to the worst toxins reduces the problem of cancer, despite not "solving" it.

No. Religion is an excuse for immorality, not the cause of it. Humanity and our unintelligently designed brains is the cause of immorality.

It is both, as are all bullshit excuses for immorality. The reason people invent excuses for bad behavior is that it helps them to get away with more bad behavior.
Your argument is like saying that since the fact that we are alive is the ultimate cause of our deaths, there can be nothing that has a causal impact on death except life itself.