How the Right Is Bringing Christian Prayer Back Into Public Schools

[Jarhyn]

I do wonder: if the coach had been a Muslim instead, and at the end of the game got out a mat and faced Mecca to pray, what differences there would have been. Certainly in a typical American public high school, he would not have had many people join him voluntarily.

In a typical American high school in Kentucky, he'd be lucky to be alive.

Oh yes? Are Muslim teachers routinely murdered in Kentucky for praying?

What kind of idiotic straw man is that?

I'd like to know what Muslim teachers exist at all in Kentucky. Or how many are brave enough to pray at school at all.

My guess would be "vanishingly few" and "maybe one or two" respectively.

If they did their prayer in a way that anyone else actually saw it, I am betting that number would be suddenly, violently lower.

 

[laughing dog]

I do wonder: if the coach had been a Muslim instead, and at the end of the game got out a mat and faced Mecca to pray, what differences there would have been. Certainly in a typical American public high school, he would not have had many people join him voluntarily.

In a typical American high school in Kentucky, he'd be lucky to be alive.

Oh yes? Are Muslim teachers routinely murdered in Kentucky for praying?

What kind of idiotic straw man is that?

I'm trying to understand your 'he'd be lucky to be alive' comment. Why would a Muslim teacher in Kentucky be lucky to be alive?

As a general rule, Kentucky has long history of being less than tolerant of anything that is not white and Christian.

 

[bilby]

I do wonder: if the coach had been a Muslim instead, and at the end of the game got out a mat and faced Mecca to pray, what differences there would have been. Certainly in a typical American public high school, he would not have had many people join him voluntarily.

In a typical American high school in Kentucky, he'd be lucky to be alive.

Oh yes? Are Muslim teachers routinely murdered in Kentucky for praying?

What kind of idiotic straw man is that?

I'd like to know what Muslim teachers exist at all in Kentucky. Or how many are brave enough to pray at school at all.

My guess would be "vanishingly few" and "maybe one or two" respectively.

If they did their prayer in a way that anyone else actually saw it, I am betting that number would be suddenly, violently lower.

I imagine that these places employ a few:

http://www.nurislamicschool.org/

http://www.isofl.info/

https://www.luaky.org/

 

[Metaphor]

I do wonder: if the coach had been a Muslim instead, and at the end of the game got out a mat and faced Mecca to pray, what differences there would have been. Certainly in a typical American public high school, he would not have had many people join him voluntarily.

In a typical American high school in Kentucky, he'd be lucky to be alive.

Oh yes? Are Muslim teachers routinely murdered in Kentucky for praying?

What kind of idiotic straw man is that?

I'm trying to understand your 'he'd be lucky to be alive' comment. Why would a Muslim teacher in Kentucky be lucky to be alive?

As a general rule, Kentucky has long history of being less than tolerant of anything that is not white and Christian.

So, you mean he would not be well tolerated, but you did not mean he would be violently murdered, for being Muslim? So you think that the expression 'lucky to be alive' is appropriate to describe a hostile reception but does not imply anything about life or death?

 

[Bomb#20]

In a typical American high school in Kentucky, he'd be lucky to be alive.

Oh yes? Are Muslim teachers routinely murdered in Kentucky for praying?

What kind of idiotic straw man is that?

I'd like to know what Muslim teachers exist at all in Kentucky. Or how many are brave enough to pray at school at all.

My guess would be "vanishingly few" and "maybe one or two" respectively.

If they did their prayer in a way that anyone else actually saw it, I am betting that number would be suddenly, violently lower.

I imagine that these places employ a few:

http://www.nurislamicschool.org/

http://www.isofl.info/

https://www.luaky.org/

Dude! Please have the common courtesy not to let ugly facts get in the way of a beautiful stereotype.

 

[TomC]

Oh yes? Are Muslim teachers routinely murdered in Kentucky for praying?

No.
Because they're clever enough to stay private about it.

If they routinely behaved the same way as that guy, yeah they probably would be routinely murdered.
Tom

 

[Gun Nut]

The coach was reprimanded for violating his employer's completely reasonable and legal rules that applied to all employees. If he was fired, it was not for praying (or "just flexing his finger"), it was for doing it in public (not only against school rules, but Christian rules as well - so his belief can't be "closely held" in any way),

I'm sorry but of course his belief can be closely held. Do you think Christians don't pray together in large groups? Do you think the Bible, the big book of multiple choice, forbids public prayer? You think when Jesus prayed out loud on the mountain he was being a bad Christian?

Nope. I'm a literalist. If you do not believe that the book says you must effectively lock yourself in a dark closet to pray then you have no belief that is supported by any religious text... "closely held" was not the best choice of words.... "legitimate" would be a better word.
So, you acknowledge that he was fired for repeatedly and intentionally breaking rules that were previously spelled out to him, and would like to talk about the validity of his beliefs? I know I brought it up, but as another layer of wrong on his part... not "the" layer we are talking about. Everyone knows the bible says not to do what he is doing... that isn't an opinion. Someone with more interest can link you to the passage if you are not familiar.

 

[Metaphor]

The coach was reprimanded for violating his employer's completely reasonable and legal rules that applied to all employees. If he was fired, it was not for praying (or "just flexing his finger"), it was for doing it in public (not only against school rules, but Christian rules as well - so his belief can't be "closely held" in any way),

I'm sorry but of course his belief can be closely held. Do you think Christians don't pray together in large groups? Do you think the Bible, the big book of multiple choice, forbids public prayer? You think when Jesus prayed out loud on the mountain he was being a bad Christian?

Nope. I'm a literalist. If you do not believe that the book says you must effectively lock yourself in a dark closet to pray then you have no belief that is supported by any religious text... "closely held" was not the best choice of words.... "legitimate" would be a better word.

The Bible does not say that, but even if it did, religions can and do have dogmas that have nothing to do with what is written in its holy texts. Catholicism has thousands of pages of canon law.

So, you acknowledge that he was fired for repeatedly and intentionally breaking rules that were previously spelled out to him, and would like to talk about the validity of his beliefs? I know I brought it up, but as another layer of wrong on his part... not "the" layer we are talking about. Everyone knows the bible says not to do what he is doing... that isn't an opinion. Someone with more interest can link you to the passage if you are not familiar.

I know the passage, and I also know that the Bible is the big book of multiple choice, with multiple internal contradictions.

You can call him a bad Christian if you want, for praying in public. But you cannot possibly know what he believes to be true about praying in public. Nor does one passage in the Bible saying one thing negate the other passages saying other things, sometimes directly opposing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There is a big issue here--others were following his lead. He's an authority figure, this is inherently coercive. Simply going out and praying alone is highly suspect to me (he's making a spectacle of his praying), others following puts it far over the line.

So what's the remedy? If authority figures doing inherently coercive stuff to their charges is far over the line, but they do it anyway, what should be done about it?

That's why this case ended up in court.

 

[Bomb#20]

I will leave that to lawyers. However, that question is moot in this instance.
...
IMO view, since there is a difference between studying religion and practicing it, I don't think the standard is that difficult to comprehend or comply with or enforce.

So what's the remedy? If authority figures doing inherently coercive stuff to their charges is far over the line, but they do it anyway, what should be done about it?

That's why this case ended up in court.

So, then, are we all on board with having laws authorizing the courts to enforce the principle that, as Justice Jackson wrote, "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or low, can prescribe what should be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion or other issues of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith there."?

 

[Copernicus]

I will leave that to lawyers. However, that question is moot in this instance.
...
IMO view, since there is a difference between studying religion and practicing it, I don't think the standard is that difficult to comprehend or comply with or enforce.

So what's the remedy? If authority figures doing inherently coercive stuff to their charges is far over the line, but they do it anyway, what should be done about it?

That's why this case ended up in court.

So, then, are we all on board with having laws authorizing the courts to enforce the principle that, as Justice Jackson wrote, "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or low, can prescribe what should be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion or other issues of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith there."?

Nobody seems to be disputing her statement. Why do you think it relevant to bring it up here?

 

[Jarhyn]

"When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen."

The Bible has very clear words on what not to do as you pray.

Do it as private as you may. If Christianity is supposed to be your thing, anyway.

 

[Metaphor]

"When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen."

The Bible has very clear words on what not to do as you pray.

Do it as private as you may. If Christianity is supposed to be your thing, anyway.

Do you often tell people how to practise their religion?

 

[Copernicus]

"When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen."

The Bible has very clear words on what not to do as you pray.

Do it as private as you may. If Christianity is supposed to be your thing, anyway.

I view holy books like The Bible as what Alfred Hitchcock would have called a  MacGuffin--something necessary to the plot and motivation of characters in a movie or book, but unimportant in and of itself. As Metaphor implied with his rhetorical question, you can't use the Bible to instruct believers on how they ought to practice their religion.

 

[Metaphor]

"When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen."

The Bible has very clear words on what not to do as you pray.

Do it as private as you may. If Christianity is supposed to be your thing, anyway.

I view holy books like The Bible as what Alfred Hitchcock would have called a  MacGuffin--something necessary to the plot and motivation of characters in a movie or book, but unimportant in and of itself. As Metaphor implied with his rhetorical question, you can't use the Bible to instruct believers on how they ought to practice their religion.

But even if they were taking the Bible as absolute law (and no Christian does this), the Bible also exhorts believers to pray everywhere.

A religion takes place in a faith community and that community decides what its religion is and how it is practised.

And when enough people in the faith community don't like the way it is practised, they literally form a new faith community and a new religious branch.

Jarhyn telling Christians they don't know how their faith works is only telling of one thing: that Jarhyn doesn't know how religion works.

 

[Copernicus]

"When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men … but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen."

The Bible has very clear words on what not to do as you pray.

Do it as private as you may. If Christianity is supposed to be your thing, anyway.

I view holy books like The Bible as what Alfred Hitchcock would have called a  MacGuffin--something necessary to the plot and motivation of characters in a movie or book, but unimportant in and of itself. As Metaphor implied with his rhetorical question, you can't use the Bible to instruct believers on how they ought to practice their religion.

But even if they were taking the Bible as absolute law (and no Christian does this), the Bible also exhorts believers to pray everywhere.

It doesn't matter. The whole point of a liberal democracy is that individual freedom is maximized. People can believe whatever they want. However, different people can hold mutually contradictory beliefs, and that can often lead to violence, especially when beliefs compel behavior. The government exists to arbitrate disputes of that sort in order to preserve public peace and order. So Christians do not have an absolute right to do whatever they believe their religion compels them to do, especially when it infringes on the individual rights of others. If some public school teacher or coach feels compelled and decides to proselytize or promote his or her personal religious dogma, that infringes on the right of students not to be proselytized and parents not to have their children subjected to it. The government has a perfect right to enforce religious neutrality. At least, that is what the First Amendment is supposedly all about. In theory, the courts will administer justice blindly in this case, and the most reasonable interpretation of the theory is that the coach not use an official school function to influence his team to participate in his prayer session. Nothing wrong with him taking the session to a venue not associated with that function. After all, the Bible doesn't say anything in that passage about leading public prayer sessions in schools or on government property. Of course, anyone can actually say private prayers any time they want in such venues. I'm sure some students say a silent prayer for passing a test before they start answering questions.

A religion takes place in a faith community and that community decides what its religion is and how it is practised.

And when enough people in the faith community don't like the way it is practised, they literally form a new faith community and a new religious branch.

Yes, that seems to be an accurate description of what happens. Whether it is smoking marijuana or human sacrifice, the community buys off on how it is practiced, and religious groups can splinter off into new groups on such subjects.

Jarhyn telling Christians they don't know how their faith works is only telling of one thing: that Jarhyn doesn't know how religion works.

I think that he took the same position that most people take on how the faith ought to work--that the Bible is supposed to be the authority on how it is practiced. I agree with you that that isn't the way it actually turns out in reality.

 

[Hermit]

Secular religions are belief systems that include most or all of the trappings of religion but no particular belief in a deity.

An example is the prayer (Acknowledgment of Country) given to indigenous people in Australian workplaces before large/significant meetings or with meetings with external participants.

Acknowledgment of Country is not a prayer. Claiming that it is doesn't make it one.

 

[Metaphor]

Secular religions are belief systems that include most or all of the trappings of religion but no particular belief in a deity.

An example is the prayer (Acknowledgment of Country) given to indigenous people in Australian workplaces before large/significant meetings or with meetings with external participants.

Acknowledgment of Country is not a prayer. Claiming that it is doesn't make it one.

It is a secular prayer. It functions much like 'grace' does before a meal for Christians. And, just like any conduct of public prayer in front of a captive audience, people are forced to endure it.

But worse, people are forced to utter it.

 

[Hermit]

Secular religions are belief systems that include most or all of the trappings of religion but no particular belief in a deity.

An example is the prayer (Acknowledgment of Country) given to indigenous people in Australian workplaces before large/significant meetings or with meetings with external participants.

Acknowledgment of Country is not a prayer. Claiming that it is doesn't make it one.

It is a secular prayer. It functions much like 'grace' does before a meal for Christians. And, just like any conduct of public prayer in front of a captive audience, people are forced to endure it.

But worse, people are forced to utter it.

First "secular religion, now "secular prayer" How many more oxymorons do you have up your sleeve? Are national anthems secular hymns?

Definition of prayer​

1 : an address (such as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought

2 : the act or practice of praying to God or a god


No God, no prayer, except in the colloquial sense. If you are trying to convince us that the colloquial use of the word applies here, you haven't got a prayer.

 

[bilby]

Are national anthems secular hymns?

Many national anthems are religious hymns.