Portrait of a 47% moocher

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren: You may not realize it, but you are simply boosting people who have come into favor with you in your very myopic world. You really are only in love with success stories that are as phony as Santa Claus. Gates and Buffet in their lifetimes have done a lot of throat cutting. You are overly impressed with these mens' accumulation of wealth and aspire to the same for yourself without actually understanding that they are nothing but shrewd self serving dealers and indeed our technological world would have looked slightly different from how it looks today without them... It just might have been a better world had there been better distribution of wealth. You cannot ever assure me that these men ought to guide our social policies. These men have been driven by the idols of the marketplace as you have been. I don't see brilliance coming out of the mouths of these men. That does not discount that there are brilliant people who work for them. You seem to believe as does Axullus that we ought always have big time rich deciders making all our social and economic decisions and really have only your esteem for these men to back up your claims. You treat life like it is a game and only shrewd people should have any say. When will you ever learn that the consequences of our actions are always with us and today, we need less of this lock step capitalism and more cooperation to deal with our decaying society and crumbling environment?

Gates has done a lot of scummy things. Where's the scummy stuff from Buffet, though?

You are coming at it from a standpoint that there is no legitimate way to have attained wealth, thus it must be by criminal means.

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You have a limited notion of what "work" is. Organizing people, assessing risks and recognizing opportunities is just as essential.

Where did I say that is not work?

You claim we are wrong in calling out Marx for ignoring this.

Giving people money because we have a system that is very bad at getting money to workers that would like to open businesses, and is not promoting worker run businesses, is not work.

We have a system that's very poor at creating money from nothing. I know of no other system that fares any better at this, though.

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"Assessing risks and recognizing opportunities".

This can be done by workers.

What they lack is capital, not brains.

The average low wage worker does lack brains. That's why they are doing crap work rather than thinking type work.

 

[untermensche]

You claim we are wrong in calling out Marx for ignoring this.

Where did you get this?

Show me the expert on Marx who agrees with you.

We have a system that's very poor at creating money from nothing. I know of no other system that fares any better at this, though.

What system is that? US capitalism? It is the best?

This can be done by workers.

What they lack is capital, not brains.

The average low wage worker does lack brains. That's why they are doing crap work rather than thinking type work.

What you lack is the ability to recognize their intelligence.

If I gave you what the average low wage worker gets you wouldn't be able to manage.

 

[untermensche]

We have worker owned and managed companies in the US, just not enough for you. We have a safety net, just not strong enough for you, fine. That is a legitimate argument.

I don't see the system as benign. It is destroying the planet. It has crushed the unions. Those at the top have rigged the game so that all gains go to them. We are all working harder and harder so a few at the top can get richer and richer.

Our system is actually oligarchy. The very rich control the government. They control the courts. The agenda of the nation is their agenda. We go to war on their behest. We make alliances on their behest. We are massively spoiling the environment on their behest.

We can hope things get better.

Or we can look at ways to make things better.

Do you want to make it illegal for me to start a private business? That I would have a problem with.

If only you were needed to run some business then of course you could own one.

And even in my system you could try to start a business and you will tell the employees that they are not in a democratic situation and you are the boss. Today you can find many people willing to do that. They have been carefully indoctrinated to accept that. But if people were raised to live in a democratic system and the world around them was as democratic as the present world is top down you would not find many people willing to do your bidding.

Israel had the kibbutz system. Last I checked it mostly failed.

It was a huge success. Nothing grew out of it because the capitalist system occupies all the space to grow. It exploits everything. But not for the good of all. Mostly for the good of very few.

When you completely disparage capitalism you are acting just as nutty as the Ann Rand fans.

I would say the same thing about supporting it. A shared delusion.

We clearly recognize in governments the preference for democracy over dictatorship. Yet some can't see the same thing in work place situations, where we actually live. They are blind to it.

It takes very careful indoctrination to make people see something clearly when it pertains to one thing but be completely blind when it pertains to something else.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Gates has done a lot of scummy things. Where's the scummy stuff from Buffet, though?

You are coming at it from a standpoint that there is no legitimate way to have attained wealth, thus it must be by criminal means.

"Criminal" means implies they did something against the law. Considering the ORIGINS of the laws that currently govern Corporate America, it should not be surprising that just because something is immoral and destructive does not mean it is illegal.

We have a system that's very poor at creating money from nothing.

On the contrary, our system EXCELS are creating money from nothing. In fact mortgage default swaps were arguably EXACTLY that: the creation of financial fictions that were then bought and sold between banks for absurdly huge profits.

The thing is, ACCESS to that money creation is highly limited and has, in fact, become a valuable commodity all its own.

The average low wage worker does lack brains. That's why they are doing crap work rather than thinking type work.

Implying that the lack of specialization enough to, say, create a multimillion dollar software app or perform complex materials science analysis in aerospace engineering is the bare minimum for "brains."

You can train high school students to operate CNC machines; you can train college dropouts to make perfect welds. You can teach poor black kids from the ghetto to patch electrical cables, repair cell phones, debug computers, repair cars and motorcycles, etc. There are people who do these jobs on a regular basis who have far greater intellect than you have.

Their wages are stagnant, however, because current economic trends and policies strongly favor investment and not labor.

 

[NobleSavage]

untermensche,

Ok, you don't like capitalism. Give me more specifics on your plan. If I don't like my employee owned job and want to work for a friend as just a worker is that going to be illegal? What if several of my friends decide that we would rather work for XYZ as non-owners?

What are the rules on private property?

What are the rules on income and wealth?

Can you give me a link to the Kibbutz system being a wild success?

 

[untermensche]

untermensche,

Ok, you don't like capitalism. Give me more specifics on your plan. If I don't like my employee owned job and want to work for a friend as just a worker is that going to be illegal? What if several of my friends decide that we would rather work for XYZ as non-owners?

What are the rules on private property?

What are the rules on income and wealth?

Can you give me a link to the Kibbutz system being a wild success?

Just give me your defense of dictatorship first.

Why is it so bad in government yet so good in real people's lives in the workplace?

 

[Jayjay]

untermensche,

Ok, you don't like capitalism. Give me more specifics on your plan. If I don't like my employee owned job and want to work for a friend as just a worker is that going to be illegal? What if several of my friends decide that we would rather work for XYZ as non-owners?

What are the rules on private property?

What are the rules on income and wealth?

Can you give me a link to the Kibbutz system being a wild success?

Just give me your defense of dictatorship first.

Why is it so bad in government yet so good in real people's lives in the workplace?

It's considerably easier to quit your job and find another, than quit your government.

 

[NobleSavage]

Just give me your defense of dictatorship first.

I'm not promoting dictatorship.

Why is it so bad in government yet so good in real people's lives in the workplace?

It's not good in the workplace or the government, but you seem to want to dictate that I can not participate in a private company. In the mean time, worker owned companies are completely legal and doing fine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_employee-owned_companies) and you are free to join any "intentional community" you like. There are gobs of them. (http://www.ic.org/)

 

[untermensche]

I'm not promoting dictatorship.

You are defending a power structure at the workplace that is dictatorial.

You are defending the idea that some should have dictatorial control over others.

It's not good in the workplace or the government, but you seem to want to dictate that I can not participate in a private company.

So you are defending dictatorship.

Why don't you just admit you prefer dictatorship over democracy? It's OK many people do. Those that want to be dictators.

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It's considerably easier to quit your job and find another, than quit your government.

This is no defense of dictatorship or a reason to allow it.

 

[Jayjay]

It's considerably easier to quit your job and find another, than quit your government.

This is no defense of dictatorship or a reason to allow it.

I think that's a pretty good reason to allow it. A dictatorship that you can easily opt out from is hardly a dictatorship.

 

[ksen]

"easily"

 

[Jayjay]

"easily"

Even the worst dead end job (in first world countries anyway) is easier to quit than your government. Plus, government regulation and protection is what makes it so.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

untermensche,

Ok, you don't like capitalism. Give me more specifics on your plan. If I don't like my employee owned job and want to work for a friend as just a worker is that going to be illegal? What if several of my friends decide that we would rather work for XYZ as non-owners?

What are the rules on private property?

What are the rules on income and wealth?

Can you give me a link to the Kibbutz system being a wild success?

Just give me your defense of dictatorship first.

Why is it so bad in government yet so good in real people's lives in the workplace?

The workplace is not a dictatorship--you can vote with your feet.

 

[NobleSavage]

You are defending a power structure at the workplace that is dictatorial.

You are defending the idea that some should have dictatorial control over others.

I'm part owner of a small company. We have a CEO. He is not a dictator. He takes care of day to day decisions but anything big must be voted on by the owners. So the management layer is democratic. We treat our employees well: we pay above average, we don't drug test, we listen to them, they get lots of good training. One guy's car broke down and we gave him money to help get a new one. Another guy has a major tooth problem and we payed for that. On guy got thrown in jail for some stupid shit and we got him out of jail. But, sometimes we have to fire people. If you have a worker owned company that is successful you are going to have some kind of structure to do things that are unpleasant. As some point you will have to make decision that favors the collective, but harms individuals, or you just might lose the collective.

 

[Axulus]

untermensche,

Ok, you don't like capitalism. Give me more specifics on your plan. If I don't like my employee owned job and want to work for a friend as just a worker is that going to be illegal? What if several of my friends decide that we would rather work for XYZ as non-owners?

What are the rules on private property?

What are the rules on income and wealth?

Can you give me a link to the Kibbutz system being a wild success?

Just give me your defense of dictatorship first.

Why is it so bad in government yet so good in real people's lives in the workplace?

It's a voluntary "dictatorship", with agreed upon terms, that can be terminated unilaterally should the terms no longer be beneficial or if there is something better next door.

Government dictatorship, however, is forced upon without the individuals concent, with guns pointed at you if you dare try to escape to another country, who may also have guns pointed at you if you try to enter. How you fail to understand these crucial differences explains a lot about your mindset.

The reason why it is not best to always make every decision democratic is because there are times when certain people really do have more expertise in the subject matter at hand and there are times when incentives involved are not best aligned.

 

[ksen]

"easily"

Even the worst dead end job (in first world countries anyway) is easier to quit than your government. Plus, government regulation and protection is what makes it so.

lol

 

[arkirk]

Just give me your defense of dictatorship first.

Why is it so bad in government yet so good in real people's lives in the workplace?

It's a voluntary "dictatorship", with agreed upon terms, that can be terminated unilaterally should the terms no longer be beneficial or if there is something better next door.

Government dictatorship, however, is forced upon without the individuals concent, with guns pointed at you if you dare try to escape to another country, who may also have guns pointed at you if you try to enter. How you fail to understand these crucial differences explains a lot about your mindset.

The reason why it is not best to always make every decision democratic is because there are times when certain people really do have more expertise in the subject matter at hand and there are times when incentives involved are not best aligned.

Maybe you can tell me why corporations need to be dictated to by the government. If you can't then you are truly living in dreamland. Pick your most darling corporation the one, you know with a genius like say, Jobs or Buffet calling the shots and then look into their environmental record and they all turn to shit. As a man't fortune swells inordinately, so does his head. If he spends enough money he can convince everybody he is a genius. If his life is so good, why does he reserve it all for himself, delegating on duties to others. America's uber rich are all addicted to lifestyles that have huge carbon footprints. We've watched them buy congressmen and even presidents. We've watched them degrade our environment and abuse the working man far longer than I have been alive. The are the most wasteful lot of humanity on the planet. They have no sense of anything but their own world view and they use their money to enforce it on the rest of us. They simply cannot understand the word enough, and hurt others in ways too numerous to note here continuously till their operation fails or falls out of their hands.
THAT IS JUST THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS "HUMAN NATURE" we hear heaped only on the working man. The assumption is that the working would be greedy and not know to stop taking when he had reached his share. That is not true of working people. It IS TRUE OF THE 1%.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Even the worst dead end job (in first world countries anyway) is easier to quit than your government. Plus, government regulation and protection is what makes it so.

lol

This seems like a silly issue to question. The average person today will quit for a better job 20 times during her career. It's extremely difficult to leave the country of your birth.

 

[ksen]

It's a voluntary "dictatorship", with agreed upon terms

Uh huh, and the gal trapped in a burning house whose only source of rescue says he'll do it only if she lets him put it in her butt is just voluntarily accepting agreed upon terms.

 

[untermensche]

Just give me your defense of dictatorship first.

Why is it so bad in government yet so good in real people's lives in the workplace?

The workplace is not a dictatorship--you can vote with your feet.

Then no country is a dictatorship.

Dictatorship is a power structure.