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Why should RED-LINING be illegal?

Should Red-Lining be illegal?

  • No, as long as it's done for profit and benefit to consumers.

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • Yes.

    Votes: 2 66.7%
  • No.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3

Lumpenproletariat

Veteran Member
Joined
May 9, 2014
Messages
2,563
Basic Beliefs
---- "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
Why should Red-Lining be illegal?



Insurance companies discriminate against certain types of customers. I.e., they PROFILE them.

Based on where they live, what sex they are, and other arbitrary categories. This is legitimate. Companies providing a product or service are entitled to reduce their costs, as long as it's in the interest of their customers, i.e., the consumers.

E.g., in some cases a male applicant pays a higher premium than a female. Males are sometimes a greater risk. Likewise younger-age applicants are discriminated against as higher risk. It's the same in the case of a high-crime neighborhood or zip code. Some regions have a higher crime rate. So if you want home insurance, or you want a home loan in that neighborhood, you may have to pay a higher price, higher interest, higher premium, etc., (or even be declined), because of the higher risk which the company/bank is taking on.

This is the same as "Red-lining." It's not about race, or about your religion or sex preference. It's about higher risk for that insurance or loan you're applying for.

You can be sure that RODNEY KING got equally-good terms for his mansion (after he got rich), the same as Whites in the same neighborhood. It's the risk for that particular neighborhood or city or zip code which determines the "discrimination" in those cases, not the race of the applicant.
 
This is the same as "Red-lining." It's not about race, or about your religion or sex preference. It's about higher risk for that insurance or loan you're applying for.

Perhaps you answered your own question here?

Objective risk management is quite different from forced race segregation. Maybe you don't understand what "redlining" means? I don't understand your OP?
Gimme a hint.
Tom
 
Lumpenproletariat, please provide the definition of red-lining that you are using. I don't want to get into a multipage discussion of the illegality of racial discrimination and the Constitution's purpose to "promote the general Welfare" only to discover that you aren't using the common one.
 
Lumpenproletariat, please provide the definition of red-lining that you are using. I don't want to get into a multipage discussion of the illegality of racial discrimination and the Constitution's purpose to "promote the general Welfare" only to discover that you aren't using the common one.
There used to be very real issues with redlining. However, these days the discrimination cops need cases to justify their jobs.

Thus we get things like the claims of redlining some years back--paying no attention to the fact that what was going on makes more sense as the mortgage bankers considering another factor: expected appreciation.

You're left with either explaining why they discriminate against blacks in low-down mortgages but not in 20/80 mortgages, or the much more consistent position that they don't like writing low-down mortgages in areas with low appreciation.
 
If you claim that red-lining only started late in the 20th century or only mattered in the 21st, then you don't have to explain how or why minorities were concentrated in areas of low property value, or how the property owned by minorities lagged behind as the property owned by whites increased in value. Which means you can obscure the connection between racist discrimination and things like home improvement loans and insurance rates.

That's why I want lumpenproletariat provide a definition of the term 'red-lining' as he is using it. I need to know what he's talking about before I get too involved with his thread.
 
Lumpenproletariat, please provide the definition of red-lining that you are using. I don't want to get into a multipage discussion of the illegality of racial discrimination and the Constitution's purpose to "promote the general Welfare" only to discover that you aren't using the common one.
My definition is about the same one used in the following:
One example of how CRT can be used to understand current disparities can be seen in the area of housing through a process called Redlining. In the 1930s, the banking and real estate industry outlined neighborhoods that were primarily occupied by people of color in red ink, denoting these areas as “risky.”
This definition is also mine (excluding reference to the 1930s), except that the above doesn't say what the "risky" designation is based on (or doesn't say accurately what it's based on). It's based on statistics such as the past credit record of that area, not on counting the number of Blacks or minorities there. But otherwise, the above definition of "redlining" is also mine.

Subsequently, banking institutions denied mortgages to people living in “redlined” areas (Hanks et al., 2018). Two thirds of redlined areas continue to be inhabited primarily by minoritized groups, most frequently Black and Latino individuals and families (Mitchell & Franco, 2018). Today, lending practices continue to be greater among neighborhoods that are predominately White. Further, individuals and families living in areas that were “redlined” have less wealth, greater poverty, lower life expectancy, and experience greater rates of chronic diseases. Additionally, homes of similar quality in neighborhoods with similar amenities are worth 23 percent less in majority Black neighborhoods, compared to those with very few or no Black residents (Perry et al., 2018). Understanding the historic underpinnings of current inequities as well as current systems and policies that maintain these inequities is critical to progress.

It is the definition of Critical Race Theorists. Who say that the policy of banks discriminating against high-risk neighborhoods is an example of structural racism. The discrimination takes the form of imposing more strict terms on loan applicants from these high-risk areas, and these high-risk areas "redlined" by the banks are areas which have higher minority populations.

Or, actually, my definition is the same as any which connects "redlining" to some kind of unjust discrimination and which demands that the practice of redlining by banks be made illegal. Just find any article on this subject, condemning the practice because it's discriminatory, and whatever their definition is, that's the same definition I intend here.

Let's not quibble about semantics. It's quite clear what "redlining" means. There have been many complaints about it, from CRT and BLM and others who condemn it as racist. Just go by whatever definition these complainers are using, and take that as my definition (except that the "high risk" designation is based on past history of credit in that area, not on the number of minorities there). And give the reasons why the practice should be made illegal.

If they say "redlining" means bankers look at a loan applicant who is Black (or other minority) and then automatically exclude them and say they are rejected for a loan, then they are wrong. Banks do not do that. But if they mean those applicants are often from an area which gets worse terms than other neighborhoods which are treated better, that's my definition. I.e., simply that they categorize different neighborhoods, or zip codes, etc., as higher or lower risk, and the terms (for a loan (or also for insurance in the case of home insurance)) are often determined by that risk level, rather than by the individual applicant's personal financial history/risk.

In the above quote, I'm actually not sure what the writer's precise definition is, but let's go by that, whatever you think he's saying. If he's saying that "higher risk" means that the population in that area is heavier minority, and that defines "high risk" and causes the "redlining" there, then he's just lying. But more correctly the "high risk" refers to crime statistics (or other statistics, like past default rate) which make that area a higher business risk, e.g. for lending, than other areas which are lower risk and thus get better terms.


I don't want to get into a multipage discussion of the illegality of racial discrimination and the Constitution's purpose to "promote the general Welfare" only to discover that you aren't using the common one.
The "general welfare" is promoted by allowing banks to continue this practice, because it reduces overall risk in the lending business, and thus reduces the cost to consumers generally.

The "general welfare" refers to the overall welfare to everyone, even though there are a few who are worse off. The best system is the one which provides the greatest good for the greatest number even though a small number are made worse off. Reducing costs for everyone overall is best, even though the cost might be higher for a small number. E.g., requiring those in a high-crime group to pay a higher premium, like young males required to pay higher for auto insurance (all else being equal), is a net benefit for the whole society, even though the benefit to young males as a group is made less. But it promotes the general welfare, because the slightly higher cost for that group is more than offset by the lower cost overall to the whole population.

Likewise, redlining based on good data promotes the general welfare by reducing the lending costs overall to all consumers, thus allowing an increase in total lending.
 
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So you don't think the designation of black communities as high risk had anything to do with the widespread destruction of black communities like Tulsa and Rosewood in the 1920s, or the seizure of black owned businesses and properties under Eminent Domain like what happened at Bruce's Beach in the '20s or Hickory Ridge and Batestown in the 1930s?

You don't think banks recognized that financing black owned properties was risky, not because blacks were less reliable, but because blacks were frequent targets of racist violence and more likely than whites to lose their businesses and property to Eminent Domain whenever nearby communities wanted to build more roads and dams and utility corridors? Or that federal housing programs that blatantly discriminated against minorities were a factor in how profitable it was for financial institutions to invest in white neighborhoods rather than minority communities?
 
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If they say "redlining" means bankers look at a loan applicant who is Black (or other minority) and then automatically exclude them and say they are rejected for a loan, then they are wrong. Banks do not do that.
Of course not. Anatole France made a similar comment in 1894: "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread."

See? no discrimination. None at all. Laws and financial considerations apply equally to everyone, regardless of skin colour or any other peculiarity.
 
If they say "redlining" means bankers look at a loan applicant who is Black (or other minority) and then automatically exclude them and say they are rejected for a loan, then they are wrong. Banks do not do that. But if they mean those applicants are often from an area which gets worse terms than other neighborhoods which are treated better, that's my definition. I.e., simply that they categorize different neighborhoods, or zip codes, etc., as higher or lower risk, and the terms (for a loan (or also for insurance in the case of home insurance)) are often determined by that risk level, rather than by the individual applicant's personal financial history/risk.

. . . The best system is the one which provides the greatest good for the greatest number even though a small number are made worse off. Reducing costs for everyone overall is best, even though the cost might be higher for a small number.... it promotes the general welfare, because the slightly higher cost for that group is more than offset by the lower cost overall to the whole population.

Likewise, redlining based on good data promotes the general welfare by reducing the lending costs overall to all consumers, thus allowing an increase in total lending.

So, keeping blacks in a ghetto with poorer schools and all that comes with it is a benefit to society as long as it lets some insurance companies pay higher dividends? Practical ideas to reduce segregation and make American society more cohesive are bad ideas if they mean some mortgage broker can't afford to send his kids to private schools? Got it. Talk about excessive faith in the Almighty Dollar and all it represents.

Does this exaggerate your position? Maybe, but not by much.

Furthermore it's not true that race is not a factor in present-day "redlining." I worked with a man who directed a company which produced AI for lenders. The software was trained to mimic human decisions. Even if race was specifically excluded from the input, the software implicitly learned correlations. (For example, ethnicity can be guessed from surname or personal name.) And such automated training comes with a free disclaimer: "Don't blame us! The 'race-ignorant' computer rejected you!"

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Several decades ago, I went to elementary and high school in a Northern California school district which had ZERO black students. I was barely aware of blacks, except from watching TV. Only many years later did I understand that realtors were simply not offering homes in that community to blacks.
 
Lumpenproletariat, please provide the definition of red-lining that you are using. I don't want to get into a multipage discussion of the illegality of racial discrimination and the Constitution's purpose to "promote the general Welfare" only to discover that you aren't using the common one.
There used to be very real issues with redlining. However, these days the discrimination cops need cases to justify their jobs.

Thus we get things like the claims of redlining some years back--paying no attention to the fact that what was going on makes more sense as the mortgage bankers considering another factor: expected appreciation.
Okay, nothing like self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
If you claim that red-lining only started late in the 20th century or only mattered in the 21st, then you don't have to explain how or why minorities were concentrated in areas of low property value, or how the property owned by minorities lagged behind as the property owned by whites increased in value. Which means you can obscure the connection between racist discrimination and things like home improvement loans and insurance rates.

That's why I want lumpenproletariat provide a definition of the term 'red-lining' as he is using it. I need to know what he's talking about before I get too involved with his thread.
Evil versions certainly used to exist. I'm just questioning whether what we see now is evil or just obsessive hunting for "evidence".
 
Lumpenproletariat, please provide the definition of red-lining that you are using. I don't want to get into a multipage discussion of the illegality of racial discrimination and the Constitution's purpose to "promote the general Welfare" only to discover that you aren't using the common one.
There used to be very real issues with redlining. However, these days the discrimination cops need cases to justify their jobs.

Thus we get things like the claims of redlining some years back--paying no attention to the fact that what was going on makes more sense as the mortgage bankers considering another factor: expected appreciation.
Okay, nothing like self-fulfilling prophecy.
Which still doesn't address my point that it's the simplest assumption required to get a consistent picture.
 
If you claim that red-lining only started late in the 20th century or only mattered in the 21st, then you don't have to explain how or why minorities were concentrated in areas of low property value, or how the property owned by minorities lagged behind as the property owned by whites increased in value. Which means you can obscure the connection between racist discrimination and things like home improvement loans and insurance rates.

That's why I want lumpenproletariat provide a definition of the term 'red-lining' as he is using it. I need to know what he's talking about before I get too involved with his thread.
Evil versions certainly used to exist. I'm just questioning whether what we see now is evil or just obsessive hunting for "evidence".
The witch hunters always found witches to burn.
 
Everything is racist.


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Everything is racist.


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That sounds like an updated version of the infamous mined quote "Everything is sexist" used to smear Anita Sarkeesian.

If I go looking into that text and read everything posted before and after it, will I see someone revealing their racism, or someone pointing out that racism influences choices people make, and that what some people assume is race-neutral really isn't?
“Institutional racism” is the QAnon of the Left. They look at the clouds and see all the shapes they want to see. Sometimes hilariously.



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This is a derail.

Do you want to start a new thread on the topic of Institutional racism, or do you want to discuss the reasons why red-lining should be illegal in this one?
 
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