Abortion

[TomC]

Technically you'd be the one sounding like a slaver because you are going on about your rights to inhibit the rights of another living / breathing human being.

So, we're back to the question of whether or not a fetal child is living?
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes, they do. They implant themselves and then tether umbilically to the implanted cyst wall.

And those Africans did sail across the Atlantic headed for South Carolina.
Tom

There was nothing about their specific biological form that put them on the boats. Other people made a decision to take free humans, subjugate them, and put them on boats.

The decision to have an orgasm is not a decision "to have a child".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Technically you'd be the one sounding like a slaver because you are going on about your rights to inhibit the rights of another living / breathing human being.

So, we're back to the question of whether or not a fetal child is living?

That isn't a question for me, but each individual woman.

 

[TomC]

Yes, they do. They implant themselves and then tether umbilically to the implanted cyst wall.

And those Africans did sail across the Atlantic headed for South Carolina.
Tom

There was nothing about their specific biological form that put them on the boats. Other people made a decision to take free humans, subjugate them, and put them on boats.

The decision to have an orgasm is not a decision "to have a child".

"Other people made a decision" is the key phrase here. You doesn't seem to understand that fetal children don't make any decisions. You think that they "walk up and implant themselves"

I've had lots of orgasms that didn't have any risk of parenthood. Even back when I was having sex with women, I knew that only one particular form of sex carried that risk. There are other ways to achieve orgasm. And plenty of people get pregnant without getting the orgasm, sadly enough.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes, they do. They implant themselves and then tether umbilically to the implanted cyst wall.

And those Africans did sail across the Atlantic headed for South Carolina.
Tom

There was nothing about their specific biological form that put them on the boats. Other people made a decision to take free humans, subjugate them, and put them on boats.

The decision to have an orgasm is not a decision "to have a child".

"Other people made a decision" is the key phrase here. You doesn't seem to understand that fetal children don't make any decisions. You think that they "walk up and implant themselves"

I've had lots of orgasms that didn't have any risk of parenthood. Even back when I was having sex with women, I knew that only one particular form of sex carried that risk. There are other ways to achieve orgasm. And plenty of people get pregnant without getting the orgasm, sadly enough.
Tom

You claim that fetal children don't make decisions, but I recognize that their activity is a function of their own form acting upon it's environment is the responsibility of such a thing acting as a function of it's form.

It does these things because it can and is configured in such a way that it will, and so it is responsible insofar as it does this thing for what it does.

It does not matter that the uterus is dressed provocatively or invitingly, it is owned by an administrator that says no, and who will act accordingly once the squatter is detected.

It is not innocent of the things it has done by its nature, and it is only by the mercy of others it may continue.

 

[TomC]

Do you even understand where babies come from?

Here's where babies come from:

View attachment 38764

Now you can explain why this little blob of protoplasm, invisible to the naked eye, now has more rights in some places than an actual living breathing human being with memories, preferences, pleasures, pains, friends, family and loved ones.
What a silly idea.

You claim that fetal children don't make decisions,

Jarhyn, do you and Elixir have the same understanding of fetal children? It looks to me like you're contradicting each other.

You think that they are in charge of the situation. Elixir doesn't seem to think so.

Lemme know when you come to an agreement.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes, they do. They implant themselves and then tether umbilically to the implanted cyst wall.

And those Africans did sail across the Atlantic headed for South Carolina.
Tom

There was nothing about their specific biological form that put them on the boats. Other people made a decision to take free humans, subjugate them, and put them on boats.

The decision to have an orgasm is not a decision "to have a child".

"Other people made a decision" is the key phrase here. You doesn't seem to understand that fetal children don't make any decisions. You think that they "walk up and implant themselves"

I've had lots of orgasms that didn't have any risk of parenthood. Even back when I was having sex with women, I knew that only one particular form of sex carried that risk. There are other ways to achieve orgasm. And plenty of people get pregnant without getting the orgasm, sadly enough.

Great... what does any of that have to do with your desire to usurp the self-autonomy of a woman?

 

[TomC]

Great... what does any of that have to do with your desire to usurp the self-autonomy of a woman?

I don't have any more desire to usurp the self-autonomy of women than men. And I don't consider requiring parents to take responsibility for the choices they made usurping anything.

When competent adults make choices that involve other people they have a moral obligation to take care of the results.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Do you even understand where babies come from?

Here's where babies come from:

View attachment 38764

Now you can explain why this little blob of protoplasm, invisible to the naked eye, now has more rights in some places than an actual living breathing human being with memories, preferences, pleasures, pains, friends, family and loved ones.
What a silly idea.

You claim that fetal children don't make decisions,

Jarhyn, do you and Elixir have the same understanding of fetal children? It looks to me like you're contradicting each other.

You think that they are in charge of the situation. Elixir doesn't seem to think so.

Lemme know when you come to an agreement.
Tom

I expect that it's biological activity is in charge of itself. It would have a responsibility in fact to abort itself, were it to find it were imposing so. It does not, and throws itself on the mercy of the body which is gated in our ethics behind the mercy of the mind.

And so again, even were the fetus "TomC" and I tethered to you, and for you this a necessity for your survival, I would be within my rights to revoke this tether and leave you to die.

That the fetus does not know it is imposing is not a forgiveness of the imposition. Only the mercy of the mother is a forgiveness of it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Great... what does any of that have to do with your desire to usurp the self-autonomy of a woman?

I don't have any more desire to usurp the self-autonomy of women than men. And I don't consider requiring parents to take responsibility for the choices they made usurping anything.

When competent adults make choices that involve other people they have a moral obligation to take care of the results.
Tom

You are forcing a woman to have a baby regardless what she thinks. You want to call that making her "responsible", but it is nothing short of usurping the woman's autonomy over her own body because you think you are right.

 

[TomC]

You are forcing a woman to have a baby regardless what she thinks.

No I'm not.

Nor am I forcing men to pay child support.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are forcing a woman to have a baby regardless what she thinks.

No I'm not.

You are forcing a pregnant woman to have a baby regardless what she thinks.

 

[TomC]

You are forcing a woman to have a baby regardless what she thinks.

No I'm not.

You are forcing a pregnant woman to have a baby regardless what she thinks.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything that they didn't choose.

Including the child support payments from the fathers (that you clipped off my post.)
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

You are forcing a woman to have a baby regardless what she thinks.

No I'm not.

You are forcing a pregnant woman to have a baby regardless what she thinks.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything that they didn't choose.

Including the child support payments from the fathers (that you clipped off my post.)
Tom

An orgasm is not a choice to be pregnant.

 

[TomC]

An orgasm is not a choice to be pregnant.

Absolutely true.
So why do you keep bringing it up?

And you do keep bringing it up. I don't.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

An orgasm is not a choice to be pregnant.

Absolutely true.
So why do you keep bringing it up?

And you do keep bringing it up. I don't.
Tom

Because you are saying that a woman's choice to have an orgasm (to be fair, often it doesn't get that far) is a choice to be pregnant.

It's not.

Quit pretending like this isn't what this is about.

The choice to have sex is not the choice to be pregnant, to let something implant and remain.

Something may, as a result, come across their genital tract seeking mercy of the owner as a result.

But to have sex is not to agree to take that thing in, nor to let it stay once it has, of its own mechaniations, deigned to implant.

It is an eviction and while cold, I am not going to expect people to give such mercy because it is not without cost.

 

[TomC]

Because you are saying that a woman's choice to have an orgasm

I stopped bothering playing around with your nonsense at this point.

I've never said any such thing. You keep changing the subject from what I've posted to your nonsensical strawman bullshit.

I'm sure I know why.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Because you are saying that a woman's choice to have an orgasm

I stopped bothering playing around with your nonsense at this point.

I've never said any such thing. You keep changing the subject from what I've posted to your nonsensical strawman bullshit.

I'm sure I know why.
Tom

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything that they didn't choose.

Having sex is not that choice. The choice to have a child is to say "I wish to get pregnant" getting pregnant, and bearing the pregnancy to the point of viability and birth.

The consent to remain pregnant is the choice, and the only choice here that matters ethically.

 

[TomC]

Having sex is not that choice.

No, it's not.
I've had tons of sex that had nothing to do with pregnancy.

It's only one particular kind of sex. Do you really not understand that?
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Having sex is not that choice.

No, it's not.
I've had tons of sex that had nothing to do with pregnancy.

It's only one particular kind of sex. Do you really not understand that?
Tom

No, it's not even "that kind of sex". Only the explicit choice to get pregnant is that choice. IF AND ONLY IF someone explicitly decides "I wish to be pregnant" is that choice made, and only insofar as they wish to continue to be, right up to the point where waffling would cause a living maimed child to fall on someone else's mercy.