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Historical Jesus

There is no difference across the boundary of discussing Historical Odin vs Historical Jesus.

Oh yes.
There's a big difference!

Stories about Odin don't effect my life in any important way. Stories about Jesus very much do have daily impact.

So I care a lot more about the Jesus narrative, and how it came to be, than Odin or Zeus or Shiva or Yahweh or anyone else like that.
Tom

ETA ~ I live in a world where middle class folks go to church on Sunday. They hop out of their late model luxury cars, in their wool power suits, to Worship the author of the Bible verse "Store not treasure that rust and moth will devour. Store up treasure in a Heaven." Then they go back to their real lives, that includes voting for Trump. Because what really matters to modern American Christian folks is having more stuff. Not Jesus or any of His communist nonsense. Money, power, guns...
 
Stories about Odin don't effect my life in any important way. Stories about Jesus very much do have daily impact.
But none of the impact of either comes from their historicity, which as discussed is about equally close to 0 in both cases.
 
What are you talking about? Jesus existed, I believe.
"I believe" is the entire reason that your conclusion is wrong.

Jesus might or might not have existed.

There is insufficient evidence to make either claim stand out as the more likely.

So there are three camps: "Jesus existed, I believe"; "Jesus did not exist, I believe"; and "You guys and your 'beliefs' are nuts".

To discuss, even argue over, something for which there's inadequate evidence is fair enough. But to believe? That's just shit epistemology. Belief is worse than useless as a means to knowledge.
 
Stories about Odin don't effect my life in any important way. Stories about Jesus very much do have daily impact.
What about Charlie Brown? I mean if we're going to grant historicity on the basis of popularity there must certainly be a historical Charlie Brown. And there is. The person's name is Charles Schulz. He is the author who invented the character and admits that the character and many of the other characters in the many episodes (gospels) that occurred over the decades were based on people he knew.
 
I wonder about the comparison with Uncle Sam. Every American knows what Uncle Sam looks like, even though he wasn't an historical person. He's even been portrayed in heroic literature.

And yet he wasn't made up whole cloth, either. He's an personification, an encapsulation of an ideal shared by a group of people.
 
Stories about Odin don't effect my life in any important way. Stories about Jesus very much do have daily impact.
What about Charlie Brown? I mean if we're going to grant historicity on the basis of popularity there must certainly be a historical Charlie Brown. And there is. The person's name is Charles Schulz. He is the author who invented the character and admits that the character and many of the other characters in the many episodes (gospels) that occurred over the decades were based on people he knew.
Yes but Tomc's comment is it. Us atheists and others have to contend wth an onerous American Chrtianity in our lives.
 
Stories about Odin don't effect my life in any important way. Stories about Jesus very much do have daily impact.
What about Charlie Brown? I mean if we're going to grant historicity on the basis of popularity there must certainly be a historical Charlie Brown. And there is. The person's name is Charles Schulz. He is the author who invented the character and admits that the character and many of the other characters in the many episodes (gospels) that occurred over the decades were based on people he knew.
Yes but Tomc's comment is it. Us atheists and others have to contend wth an onerous American Chrtianity in our lives.
And my point is that the answer to that onerous Christianity is in fact to point out how "historicity" is itself rotten intellectual ice, and says nothing to confirm any of the mythology.
 
What about Charlie Brown? I mean if we're going to grant historicity on the basis of popularity there must certainly be a historical Charlie Brown.
Who is granting historicity on the basis of popularity? It certainly isn't me.

Maybe if you responded to what I actually post, instead of strawmanning me, I'd take you more seriously.

But since you won't...

Tom
 
I mean if we're going to grant historicity on the basis of popularity there must certainly be a historical Charlie Brown.
But you did say:
"on the basis of popularity there must certainly be a historical Charlie Brown."

Sounds stupid to me. Certainly has nothing to do with anything I posted.
Tom
 
I mean if we're going to grant historicity on the basis of popularity there must certainly be a historical Charlie Brown.
But you did say:
"on the basis of popularity there must certainly be a historical Charlie Brown."

Sounds stupid to me. Certainly has nothing to do with anything I posted.
Tom
Except there is, in fact by your strict definition of historicity, a historical Charlie Brown. Their name was Charles Sholtz. This has just been discussed. The point is that when you relax the True Scotsman bullshit you place around Mythicism and recognize that historically seeded fictions are in fact "mythology", and Amalgam.
 
Except there is, in fact by your strict definition of historicity, a historical Charlie Brown.
Dayum that's stupid.

But you've got a bunch of believers here. So, oh well. No more point in discussing this with y'all than discussing Jesus's Resurrection with the local Baptists.

You believe what you believe and you don't want to hear anything different. Got it

Tom
 
Perhaps we should just say that there is not any definitive answer to the possible existence or non-existence of any historical Jesus? Can a question remain unresolvable? Insufficient evidence, on many counts?
 
But you did say:
"on the basis of popularity there must certainly be a historical Charlie Brown."

Sounds stupid to me.
Sounds EXACTLY as stupid as "On the basis of popularity there must certainly be an historical Jesus".

There are no grounds on which an historical Jesus is certain. Nor any grounds for the reverse assertion.

The historicity or otherwise of Jesus is a lot of things, but 'certain' ain't one. 'unknowable', 'unimportant', and 'irrelevant to anything today', sure. But not 'certain'.
 
Stories about Odin don't effect my life in any important way. Stories about Jesus very much do have daily impact.
What about Charlie Brown? I mean if we're going to grant historicity on the basis of popularity there must certainly be a historical Charlie Brown. And there is. The person's name is Charles Schulz. He is the author who invented the character and admits that the character and many of the other characters in the many episodes (gospels) that occurred over the decades were based on people he knew.
Yes but Tomc's comment is it. Us atheists and others have to contend wth an onerous American Chrtianity in our lives.
And my point is that the answer to that onerous Christianity is in fact to point out how "historicity" is itself rotten intellectual ice, and says nothing to confirm any of the mythology.
Frodo lives!

JFK and Jackie O and the White House as Camelot. A mythicla family image created by political image specilists beloved by many.

The myth of the Alamo as a heroic battle for freedom.

The myth that Bob Dylan was a prophet and not a capitalist profit motivated performer.

A long list of modern myths. The trick is in finding out what your own myths are, the proverbial journey of self discovery.
 
Perhaps we should just say that there is not any definitive answer to the possible existence or non-existence of any historical Jesus? Can a question remain unresolvable? Insufficient evidence, on many counts?
This is largely the position of most Mythicists. It's @steve_bank and @T.G.G. Moogly and even @dbz 's opinions, as I gather. Nobody disputes that some time between -70 and +60 some guy, probably a follower of John the Baptist was in Jerusalem with a some members of a post-jewish cult and got executed.

The thing is, this happened a whole lot. Like a lot a lot.

John the Baptist was undisputedly one of, if not the actual founder of the Christian religion, at least as far as I understand between us "Mythicists". John the Baptist started some cults and pretty much every dude the Jews executed for participating in that cult, including John himself, probably contributed some shred to that big melting pot of Robert Paulsen or whatever. They all get to be Jesus until none of them are.

The Jewish authorities killed enough cults, not just cultists but whole cults, that the fact is, truth about all of it would be lost... And they wouldn't consider any one of them to be important enough to actually document well.

At some point it's just a meme, and I'm betting a lot of young Jewish men participated, and by that I mean "got executed by Jewish authorities".

At least most Mythicists will cop to that.

My guess is for every one we have documented, there are at least 5 that got executed that weren't well documented.

People liked them a good witch burning Messiah execution.
 
In other news there's actually still an original JtB cult out there and I would absolutely love to hear what they believe about JtB, his life and his teachings.
 
The study of myths can be fruitful (and interesting!) for various reasons. Here's Michael Witzel's discussion of myths he thinks are 40,000 years old! No, Michael Witzel is not some inbred Jesus Freak who thinks Charlie Brown is a historic character. He is the Wales Professor of Sanskrit at Harvard University.

There is archaeological evidence of Central Eurasian (probably Hunnic) influence in Scandinavia. As far as I know, such visits by Huns are not recorded in any history. Yet they MIGHT be hinted at in the 13th-century works of Snorri Sturluson describing Odin's arrival from Hunnland while bringing a new religion. It may be impossible to disentangle anything of historical value from Snorri's accounts of the mythical Odin, but is it wrong to try?

The myth of Arthur is interesting — too interesting to even begin comment here! But one tidbit about the myth's documentation sheds some light on ancient manuscripts: The first alleged mention of Arthur — and this mention already treats him in mythical terms — is in Stanza XCIX of  Y Gododdin. That long poem was allegedly penned in the early 7th century but the oldest extant copy is a 13th-century vellum. And that copy is missing the final pages, including Stanza XCIX !.

Contrast this with the huge number of ancient papyri and parchments that survive related to Jesus, including several hundred BEFORE the earliest copy of Tacitus. (What's the oldest extant copy of Taledot Yeshu again?)

We KNOW that Christian cult(s) experienced very rapid growth in the decades immediately following the crucifixion of the historic Jesus. This is a fact, and a fact that obviously had a very profound impact on the history of Europe.

There are lots of quotations attributed to Albert Einstein but which he never said. Does this mean we should dismiss Einstein as an unimportant fiction? Perhaps there was some preacher more eloquent than the Nazarene and "Matthew" placed those more eloquent words — which scholars know were originally in Aramaic though "Matthew" wrote in Greek — into his Gospel. Dos that mean we should ignore this man who somehow inspired major cult(s) and treat him as fiction?

Sarcasm seems to rule here. (If we think there was a historic Jesus, we think Charlie Brown and Hemingway's Santiago were also historic.) so I'll ask: Was Albert Einstein fictional? Davy Crockett didn't kill a bear when he was three; does that make him fictional? John Brown was compared to Christ; was he also a fiction?

We can be sure that the historic Jesus had some sort of charisma, but was he an eloquent speaker? We don't know. Did he have some hypnotic or healing powers? We don't know. Did he exist? There are HUGE circumstantial reasons to say that he almost certainly did exist. It is the mythicists who grasp at straws.
 
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