US student loans grotesquely high

[Derec]

Fun fact: At one point in time, interest on credit card debt was tax deductible.

I did not know that. When did this end?

I really do not get the contempt that a lot of posters have for anyone who graduates with a degree in anything other than engineering.

I do not have any contempt. Where do you get such nonsense? Certainly not from anything I have written.
The issue is not contempt. The issue is one the being cognizant of the earning potential of a degree and planning your education trajectory accordingly. Not go to a small, private, expensive lib arts college when you want to be a social worker.
Another issue is how many degrees are awarded in each field vs. demand.

Engineers should be grateful more people don't pursue engineering because if everyone did, an engineering degree would not be worth very much.

I think universities should limit the number of degrees they award to avoid oversaturation. Some years ago we had a thread about adjunct professors in humanities. Basically the issue is too many PhDs in fields like English relative to demand for PhD positions available, especially in academia.

Some professions never pay much but are vital: teaching and social work leap to mind but there certainly are others, such as forestry and wildlife management.

Teaching in particular should be reformed to make it easier for people with BS in a relevant field to teach. I would rather my kids' physics or math teacher have a physics, math or engineering BS than a BA in education and superficial understanding of matters they supposedly teach. But hell, in US math and such teacher are not seldom football coaches as their primary job in a school.

Student loans remain in effect even for students who are forced to drop out because of life circumstances: illness in the family or loss of job requiring the student to become responsible for helping support the family, etc. These are more likely to be lower income students who need the loans in the first place.

If they cannot find a well-paying job they may not have to pay much or anything because of income-based repayment. If they find a well-paying job, why should they not pay back their debts even if they dropped out?

I think that Georgia has a wonderful program for tuition assistance for students attending public universities. However, if it only reimburses costs, students still have to come up with the money in the first place.

Are you sure about that? In my day, HOPE was applied directly to the account balance at bursar's.

Students who are lower income tend to already be working at least part time, and must continue to do so in order to pay for housing, etc.

So compare somebody worked part time to limit the amount of loans they take out vs. somebody who just took the max.
Would not the former person feel like an idiot if the latter one's loans are forgiven?

Posting again, for the cheap seats:

Not that cheap. NYT has a paywall that has become more and more annoying over the year. At the same time, quality has been declining.
So I can't speak for the whole article, just the excerpts.

Programs like English or history represent better preparation, the two authors argue, for the demands of the newly emerging “rapport sector” than vocationally oriented disciplines like engineering or finance.

What the hell does "rapport sector" mean?

Though it does not automatically land one in a particular career, training in the humanities, when pitched correctly, will ultimately lead to gainful and fulfilling employment. Indeed, by the time they reach what Stross terms the “peak earning ages,” 56-60, liberal arts majors earn on average $2,000 more per year than those with pre-professional degrees (if advanced degrees in both categories are included).

Again, not able to read the entire article nor can I comment on the particulars or parameters of the alleged study.
Some thoughts:
- I very much suspect that the average earning power of humanities degrees is largely lifted by humanities majors who get law degrees. It certainly does not hang on English PhDs.
- What is the background of the authors?
- a degree in engineering or hard science requires a lot more humanities than a humanities degree requires math or hard science. As such, science/engineering programs are far more well-rounded than humanities programs.

 

[Derec]

It’s always interesting what some people consider to be ‘easy’ degrees

I did not think it was at all controversial that some degrees are harder than others.

You are correct that there are no job postings that say ‘English Major wanted, starting salary $100K/year.’ But there is a great need for people who are able to compose a coherent paragraph or mage a cogent point, as I am reminded every time I read anything posted on the internet.

And you do not think a program in hard sciences or engineering teaches that? Lab classes have formal lab reports that involve "compos[ing] a coherent paragraph or [making] a cogent point". Other classes in science and engineering programs involve writing, giving oral presentations etc.

You hardly need to be an English major to learn how to write, esp. technical/scientific writing.

And when it comes to advanced degrees, I do not think English, History etc. PhDs prepare you for much more than teaching those subjects. Which brings me back to that old thread about adjunct professors working for peanuts because of oversupply of English etc. PhDs.

 

[Derec]

Really? What kind of loans can an 18 year old sign for, except student loans? Not mortgages, not car loans.

If the 18 year old has a job, I think he or she could get a car loan. 18 year olds certainly can get credit cards and I have not seen anybody propose credit card debt should be cancelled because 18 year olds don't know what they are signing up for.

That said, I don't completely disagree with you regarding private colleges. Harvard has sufficient endowment to offer a whole lot of free rides.

Knowing Harvard, they'd offer them in a racially discriminatory fashion though. Just like their admissions.

 

[Derec]

If 15,000 people were oppressed by student debt, you can say they were foolish people who got bamboozled. But if 15 million borrowers are oppressed, it behooves to look for systemic problems other than just "Americans are stupid. Ha ha."

How do you define "being oppressed"?

"Oppression" is one of those buzzwords on the activist Left that often does not mean much at all.

 

[Derec]

There's no reason whatsoever to imagine that most of the beneficiaries of this initiative are "making six figures".

I did not say or even imply that most of the beneficiaries are making six figures. Although it would be interesting to see what the income distribution is. Not the majority, but probably more than you think as college graduates are making far more on average than non-graduates.

The big problem with Biden's giveaway is that it helps those that are already better off than most.

I am not a fan of having a hard cut-off for eligibility, but given that one exists, $125k doesn't appear to be particularly unreasonable.

I think it is too high. $250k (the cutoff for married couples) is 93rd percentile of household incomes in the US according to this. Even the $125k for singles is third quartile (75th percentile) of household incomes.

 

[bilby]

For many people, making money is not the sole, nor the primary, reason for getting an education.

Wealth is not the only, nor the best, nor even a very good way of measuring personal success.

If you view a degree as having a value proportional to its potential to earn riches for its holder, then you will inevitably arrive at utterly absurd policies such as 'student loans'.

You will also, if you are consistent, be forced to regard the vast majority of history's greatest thinkers as far less effectively educated than such brilliant minds as Paris Hilton or Charles Windsor.

 

[Derec]

People without an education truly believe that the source of government money is, like, a big vault somewhere to which all of their tax checks are mailed.

And people with a some education but little understanding truly believe that the government can conjure up money out of thin air with no ill effects (see AOC). The inflation we are currently experiencing proves them wrong. A little learning indeed is a dangerous thing.

 

[bilby]

People without an education truly believe that the source of government money is, like, a big vault somewhere to which all of their tax checks are mailed.

And people with a some education but little understanding truly believe that the government can conjure up money out of thin air with no ill effects (see AOC). The inflation we are currently experiencing proves them wrong. A little learning indeed is a dangerous thing.

The vast majority if the current inflation is due to high energy costs.

The only government spending that is necessary to explain it is that made by Putin in his invasion of Ukraine.

 

[Derec]

For many people, making money is not the sole, nor the primary, reason for getting an education.
Wealth is not the only, nor the best, nor even a very good way of measuring personal success.

If you are replying to me, where did I say that?

I merely said that the demand to cancel all student debt (as fauxgressives like AOC are demanding) regardless of amount or income level is a regressive policy giving handouts to the segment of the population that is already earning far more than average.

The rest of your post is a non sequitur.

 

[Derec]

The vast majority if the current inflation is due to high energy costs.

[citation needed]
The core CPI, that excludes volatile energy and food categories, is at ~6%. Far more than the 2% target.

The only government spending that is necessary to explain it is that made by Putin in his invasion of Ukraine.

While the Ukraine invasion did wreak havoc on energy markets, that is only part of the picture.
There have been trillions spent during the Pandemic, a lot of it poorly, and that spending went far too long relative to when the economy reopened.

 

[Derec]

You know, Jesus was once asked who owned money. If they knew how to read, Republicans would not like his answer...

I tell you something else. I like that ring too.

 

[Derec]

So? 70 million adults who were legally able to sign contract and enter into agreements voted for Donald Trump for President.

Please kindly go to one of the dozens of threads dedicated to bitching about Trump and let adults discuss in peace.

 

[Derec]

I am not familiar with the details of the bullshit to which you refer, so I really couldn't say.

Bullshit being so-called "Modern Monetary Theory". AKA "since we decided to adopt the leaf as legal tender, we have, of course, all become immensely rich" monetary theory.

 

[Derec]

Yet when it comes to student loans they can receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans just with the stoke of a pen?

Because those loans are guaranteed by the government. Also the reason why the loans have a reasonable interest rate despite a lack of income, credit or collateral.

But you are right. There probably should be more restrictions on obtaining such loans, especially at the higher end of the loan amount range.

 

[Derec]

But by the time they sign the loan (with parents a lot of the time because very many college freshmen are under 18), they are just supposed to decide at the loan signing that it's too expensive and they'll be an electrician? GTFO with that weak argument 'they're responsible adults'.

No. There are state schools they can go to. Far more affordable, thus requiring less (or no) debt. Nobody needs to go to a private college.
There are also grants and scholarships. Loans can be a supplemental way to pay for college, but for most people it does not need to be the only one.

"Go to debt for $200k at a fancy private college or be an electrician" is the fallacy of the excluded middle.

 

[Derec]

We drill into the heads of kids that they HAVE to get a college degree or else they'll be poor their whole lives.

Nobody is saying that. Otoh college graduates do, on average, outearn non-graduates by quite a margin. On the third hand, many kids would be better served by learning a trade/going to vocational school vs. going to college.

And where is this university that offers a degree in Underwater Basket Weaving?

It's a metaphor for useless degrees.
Although some colleges do it for real in a joking manner.

I still wonder if the major issue is being ignored. Why is higher education so expensive? If it wasn't, then kids wouldn't need to borrow six figures just to get a degree, and they wouldn't clamor for loan relief.

Many kids want to go to private colleges. In-state tuition at state colleges does not require six figure loans for a bachelor's.

 

[Derec]

What is the opposite of the "naturalistic fallacy"? I mean, the idea that because it is written in law it defines what is true (18 year olds are equivalent in terms of personal responsibility to every other adult in America)?

So do you want to raise the age of majority in general, or does this only apply to student loans?
And what should the new age of majority be? 25? 30? 40? 50?

 

[bilby]

For many people, making money is not the sole, nor the primary, reason for getting an education.
Wealth is not the only, nor the best, nor even a very good way of measuring personal success.

If you are replying to me, where did I say that?

I merely said that the demand to cancel all student debt (as fauxgressives like AOC are demanding) regardless of amount or income level is a regressive policy giving handouts to the segment of the population that is already earning far more than average.

The rest of your post is a non sequitur.

Not everything is about you.

If I was replying to you I would quote the post to which my reply was directed.

There's no non sequitur in my post; If you genuinely don't understand why it's of vital importance to the thread topic, you should probably read it again. Slowly. Several times, if necessary.

 

[bilby]

I am not familiar with the details of the bullshit to which you refer, so I really couldn't say.

Bullshit being so-called "Modern Monetary Theory". AKA "since we decided to adopt the leaf as legal tender, we have, of course, all become immensely rich" monetary theory.

Now that most assuredly wasn't a reply to you, so unless you're a mind reader, or Oleg is your sock puppet, you can't have any possible justification for making that claim.

 

[ZiprHead]

The big problem with Biden's giveaway is that it helps those that are already better off than most.

I don't remember you complaining about Trump's two trillion dollar give-away to the rich and major corporations.