San Francisco launches Guaranteed Income for Transgender Individuals

[Toni]

I'm not sure why there is so much argument over distractions such as whether or not this particular group of people is 'worthy' of a universal income. The idea of universal income as been around for decades or longer--it was something that Richard Nixon was considering, ffs.

I used to be quite opposed to the idea, ironically at a time when having a universal basic income would have allowed me such luxuries as being able to eat ever day but I'm at a point now where I think we should try it. I know first hand some of the stresses of living in poverty and through observation know that many people living in poverty do so despite working full time, and more than full time. I'm familiar with the cycle of stresses: stress related illnesses, including obesity, substance abuse, mental illness which really create a feedback look, each reinforcing the others which often translates into absenteeism as workers struggle when their transportation breaks down, when a family member is sick or when they, themselves are ill. Employers will regard those with obligations to care for sick children or who themselves get some virus, or have a vehicle who breaks down as 'unreliable' when the fact is that they cannot afford the most basic safety net that allows them to be the sort of employee their boss wants. Of course, there's a horrendous lack of paid time off for most workers.

There will always be people who cannot or will not be productive workers. There are people who struggle with mental illness, addictions and other health issues that impede their effectiveness at working. With enough of the right kinds of support, at least some of these individuals could become productive members of society. And many could move into stable housing.

At this point, our society (in the US) is starting to experiment with the idea of UBI. If one is starting a study, it seems logical to start it in a distinct population. In this case, transgendered individuals. Why not?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

San Francisco recognizes that there is an unavoidable fraction of the population who will give trans people the stink-eye to the point where finding any income at all is hard, impossibly so in fact, for some.

The same is true for people who are legally blind or have albinism.

I have a friend up in Connecticut. I'll call him Barry.

Barry is a skilled worker and capable of doing a large variety of farm work. Barry is also legally blind and has albinism. I have never seen Barry have a hard time accomplishing tasks involving reading, assuming he can get the phone close enough to his face. Barry is in fact an artist despite their vision problems, in addition to being a decently skilled farmer and laborer.

Barry, despite their strong work ethic and capability to do good work (and produce works of art which impress me greatly despite being married to a fantastic artist myself), finds it hard to maintain gainful employment... As does his sibling.

I would have no problem with state infrastructure around maintaining the lives of those who are underserved in this way, because their lack of success does not imply a lack of merit; rather the discriminatory hiring practices are what drive it.

In fact, Barry, due to their albinism and vision, has had to resort to working through a halfway house program to find work. Recovering drug addicts in that program who have a history of relapse have an easier time finding consistent work than Barry. The only reason Barry is in this program with them is the "crime" of being born with bad eyesight and no skin pigmentation.

But instead of being angry at folks who would hire a meth head fresh off the farm following their third relapse over a guy with bad eyesight, some people want to be mad at trans people.

Does Barry deserve to be unemployed, and treated as unemployable because they are blind?

No. Clearly they do not deserve this. It is unjust.

Observation: My mother was blind.

Long, long ago she had multiple employers refuse to hire her because while they felt she could do the job they couldn't be sure and didn't want to have to fire a blind woman. (This was back when they wouldn't have gotten in hot water for saying this.)

 

[Jarhyn]

At any rate, I'm of the camp that it s

What is a gender identity?

If you don't know, how can you claim you don't have one? Just asking questions.

I do not have a gender identity, as far as my understanding of the term goes. But some definitions of it that I've seen are self-referential. And some people might have their particular definition. For example, I believe that nature exists and for the god-as-nature people, that means I'm a theist.

A: I don't believe in god.
B: What, you don't believe nature exists?

npr has this definition of gender identity https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others.

So, it is circular, but let's see what they say about 'gender'

Gender is often defined as a social construct of norms, behaviors and roles that varies between societies and over time. Gender is often categorized as male, female or nonbinary.

This is extremely poor--"often defined as"? But the definition seems completely inadequate to me. Gender would not just be any social construct of norms, behaviours and roles....it would be social construct of norms, behaviours and roles that are expected from people based on the sex of the person. Otherwise, the unwritten rules about eating at a restaurant are 'gender'.

Also, to the people making the extraordinary claim that 'I do not have a gender identity' is 'scientific ignorance', the same link says

Agender is an adjective that can describe a person who does not identify as any gender.

I put it to you that bald is not a hair colour.

As I expected, a melange of pedantry. It seems to me, if gender is a social construct of norms, behaviors and roles that are expected from people based on their sex, then clearly you have a gender identity.

Bald is a hair style. Hair color is part of hair style. Gender is part of whole-self style, but the fact is that gender describes the image one tries to paint in the world.

Clearly, Metaphor has an image of some masculine ideal that they aspire to, at least according to Metaphor's profile.

This ideal is sourced from the ideals of identity one sees in their life permuted in some way, and the way our brains grow and form at a young age, perhaps prenatally, impact what selections someone selects as that ideal.

For some of us gender is weird. Sometimes it means being a eunuch.

Most importantly, gender identity is the identity people expect from themselves, close to how they present themselves while posturing around discussions of sexual gratification.

Everyone clearly has one of those, even asexual eunuchs. That would be along the lines of bald.

If there is a posture you take modeled after some ideal, you have a gender. It's one of the reasons I'm gender "wizard", and why I think it's so ridiculous for people to pretend they don't have a gender at all, as if there isn't a way they try to present themselves even if they don't always nail it, even if they can't really nail it.

But it's not about what others expect of you. That's the whole reason why it's so offensive to tell someone what their gender is: it tells them what they ought aspire to, what ideal they ought hold.

People don't have a right don't own someone else's dreams, and they sure as shit shouldn't seek to see them crushed or poisoned.

These dreams do form early, crystalizing in some particular way, and sometimes the dream crystalizes to something that can only be within reach to someone who applies hormones different from the ones their gonads will produce.

It's a part of what it means to be human is to have such ideals we aspire to though I admit some live without such dreams.

Maybe that is what it means to have no gender, but to live entirely by the expectations of others. At that point it isn't a gender, it's just a mask hung on a faceless thing.

 

[Metaphor]

At any rate, I'm of the camp that it s

What is a gender identity?

If you don't know, how can you claim you don't have one? Just asking questions.

I do not have a gender identity, as far as my understanding of the term goes. But some definitions of it that I've seen are self-referential. And some people might have their particular definition. For example, I believe that nature exists and for the god-as-nature people, that means I'm a theist.

A: I don't believe in god.
B: What, you don't believe nature exists?

npr has this definition of gender identity https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others.

So, it is circular, but let's see what they say about 'gender'

Gender is often defined as a social construct of norms, behaviors and roles that varies between societies and over time. Gender is often categorized as male, female or nonbinary.

This is extremely poor--"often defined as"? But the definition seems completely inadequate to me. Gender would not just be any social construct of norms, behaviours and roles....it would be social construct of norms, behaviours and roles that are expected from people based on the sex of the person. Otherwise, the unwritten rules about eating at a restaurant are 'gender'.

Also, to the people making the extraordinary claim that 'I do not have a gender identity' is 'scientific ignorance', the same link says

Agender is an adjective that can describe a person who does not identify as any gender.

I put it to you that bald is not a hair colour.

As I expected, a melange of pedantry. It seems to me, if gender is a social construct of norms, behaviors and roles that are expected from people based on their sex, then clearly you have a gender identity.

Bald is a hair style. Hair color is part of hair style. Gender is part of whole-self style, but the fact is that gender describes the image one tries to paint in the world.

Clearly, Metaphor has an image of some masculine ideal that they aspire to, at least according to Metaphor's profile.

Oh? What 'masculine ideal' do I 'aspire' to, Jarhyn? Because it certainly is not clear to me what on earth you are on about.

This ideal is sourced from the ideals of identity one sees in their life permuted in some way, and the way our brains grow and form at a young age, perhaps prenatally, impact what selections someone selects as that ideal.

For some of us gender is weird. Sometimes it means being a eunuch.

Most importantly, gender identity is the identity people expect from themselves, close to how they present themselves while posturing around discussions of sexual gratification.

Everyone clearly has one of those, even asexual eunuchs. That would be along the lines of bald.

If there is a posture you take modeled after some ideal, you have a gender. It's one of the reasons I'm gender "wizard", and why I think it's so ridiculous for people to pretend they don't have a gender at all, as if there isn't a way they try to present themselves even if they don't always nail it, even if they can't really nail it.

Some 'posture' I take, 'modeled' after some 'ideal'?

What 'posture' do I take, and what is the 'ideal' that I've 'modeled' it after?

But it's not about what others expect of you. That's the whole reason why it's so offensive to tell someone what their gender is: it tells them what they ought aspire to, what ideal they ought hold.

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.*

*Unless you decide that you have the right to force your gender prayers from my lips. Then we have a problem.

<pointless drivel describing gender as personality and fashion excised>

 

[pood]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

 

[Metaphor]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

 

[ZiprHead]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

And there it is, the science denial.

 

[laughing dog]

It's certainly true I have a sex-role (or gender) if that is defined by forces external to myself. There is no doubt that I am male and males have certain expected roles in society based on their sex as male.

But an 'internal sense of my gender'? I still don't know what that means.

So, if you don't know what it means, how can you deny or confirm that you have it? Just asking questions.

 

[laughing dog]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

But the OP is not about religion nor is anyone trying to force you to participate. Hell, San Francisco is not only on a different country but a different hemisphere. Yet you felt the need to ridicule the trial.

 

[pood]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

You are being forced into what religion, and exactly how are you being forced?

 

[Metaphor]

It's certainly true I have a sex-role (or gender) if that is defined by forces external to myself. There is no doubt that I am male and males have certain expected roles in society based on their sex as male.

But an 'internal sense of my gender'? I still don't know what that means.

So, if you don't know what it means, how can you deny or confirm that you have it? Just asking questions.

Perhaps somebody could explain what it means to have an 'internal sense of gender', and I can tell you whether I have it.

 

[Metaphor]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

But the OP is not about religion nor is anyone trying to force you to participate. Hell, San Francisco is not only on a different country but a different hemisphere. Yet you felt the need to ridicule the trial.

Of course I am being forced to participate. My own government can punish me for "misgendering". In what universe is that not being forced to participate in affirming somebody else's self-image?

 

[Metaphor]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

You are being forced into what religion, and exactly how are you being forced?

If you actually care to know, I can count and list the ways.

First, my own government punishes people for 'misgendering'. Being forced to participate in your pronoun prayers is forcing me to participate in your religion.

 

[Metaphor]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

And there it is, the science denial.

Ah yes. The alleged "science denial".

In what universe is saying "I don't care about your gender or what you have to say about it", "science denial"?

 

[ZiprHead]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

You are being forced into what religion, and exactly how are you being forced?

If you actually care to know, I can count and list the ways.

First, my own government punishes people for 'misgendering'. Being forced to participate in your pronoun prayers is forcing me to participate in your religion.

That doesn't make it a religion.

 

[ZiprHead]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

And there it is, the science denial.

Ah yes. The alleged "science denial".

In what universe is saying "I don't care about your gender or what you have to say about it", "science denial"?

Is that really all you do?

 

[laughing dog]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

But the OP is not about religion nor is anyone trying to force you to participate. Hell, San Francisco is not only on a different country but a different hemisphere. Yet you felt the need to ridicule the trial.

Of course I am being forced to participate. My own government can punish me for "misgendering". In what universe is that not being forced to participate in affirming somebody else's self-image?

This OP (which is your OP) is not about your government. No one in San Francisco is forcing you or even politely requesting you to do anything. My guess is that no one in San Francisco cares about your opinion on their income maintenance program. Yet you felt the need to ridicule it because.......?

 

[Metaphor]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

You are being forced into what religion, and exactly how are you being forced?

If you actually care to know, I can count and list the ways.

First, my own government punishes people for 'misgendering'. Being forced to participate in your pronoun prayers is forcing me to participate in your religion.

That doesn't make it a religion.

It makes it forced affirmation to an ideology I do not believe in.

 

[pood]

I've never told somebody what their gender is, or asked somebody what their gender is. I could not care less.

But of course you deeply care, as exposed by your posts on this subject and the links you provide.

I care about being forced to participate in somebody else's religion, yes.

You are being forced into what religion, and exactly how are you being forced?

If you actually care to know, I can count and list the ways.

First, my own government punishes people for 'misgendering'. Being forced to participate in your pronoun prayers is forcing me to participate in your religion.

Really? The government punishes you for misgendering? How is that? Which government? What kind of punishment? Jail? Hard labor? Death?

What are ”pronoun prayers”? Can you recite one for me? You think transgenderism is a religion? Can you point out their chruches or tremples?

 

[laughing dog]

It's certainly true I have a sex-role (or gender) if that is defined by forces external to myself. There is no doubt that I am male and males have certain expected roles in society based on their sex as male.

But an 'internal sense of my gender'? I still don't know what that means.

So, if you don't know what it means, how can you deny or confirm that you have it? Just asking questions.

Perhaps somebody could explain what it means to have an 'internal sense of gender', and I can tell you whether I have it.

Since I sincerely doubt you have an open mind on the subject (your posts lead me to that conclusion), I doubt anyone could explain what it means to have an "internal sense of gender" so that you would choose to understand it.