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Define Free Speech for a Court

Rhea

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The Twitter meltdown thread got me thinking. I’d like to see what this group comes up with in an effort to create a tidy legal definition of “Free Speech” that would be useful for a society through its court system.

It won’t be tidy, of course, but the discussion is likely to expose some workable boundaries.


SoHy wrote:

It sounds as if some people [on Twitter] don't even realize that it's against the law to make death threats towards anyone. A man who lives near my small city was just given a 3 year jail term for making several death threats. He threatened the president, some judges and some law enforcement people. It doesn't matter if they were idle threats. It requires law enforcement to take the time to investigate such threats. There are limits to free speech and I would have no problem if some types of hate speech was banned. It often inspires kooky people to commit acts of violence.

Weren't we all told in elementary school that free speech has limits. The common example was that you can't scream fire in a crowded room. Isn't screaming out hatred against a specific person or group similar to screaming fire, since it sometimes causes chaos or inspires hate crimes? I think it's time to clearly state what the limits of free speech are. We can all criticize our governmental policies and politicians as long as there isn't any violence implied. I don't equate limiting hate speech with authoritarian government. That's a stupid claim, as I see it.

Of course, any private entity can limit speech as much as it wants. That's always been the case, but some people don't seem to understand that either.

Request to posters: please stay on topic and stay polite. If you want to rant about something or delve into a side topic, you are free to start another thread and reference this one as a jumping point, thereby leaving this one as a policy discussion.
 
I don't think such a simple definition is possible. Free speech is not a naturally existing phenomenon, but a social perception - does one feel free or impinged by the law? Do others feel your use of speech is tolerable, or somehow a community threat? Case law on the 1st amendment is a complicated tangle, for a reason. Ultimately, courts have always had to balance conflicting needs and perceptions on a situational basis. There is no objective measure that can support one person's perception of free speech over another's.
 
The Twitter meltdown thread got me thinking. I’d like to see what this group comes up with in an effort to create a tidy legal definition of “Free Speech” that would be useful for a society through its court system.
You have, I believe, built in some assumptions you should make explicit.

In defining the things included in 'free speech', do you mean 'anything we declare as 'free speech' shall never result in government action against the person making that speech, nor in the use of the court system for one private entity to effectively shut that speech down or claim damages against it'. Is that what you intend?
 
Perhaps one way to approah this is to think about things not acceptable to be free speech. Excitments to violence. Slander, libel. And of course what activities have in the past been called free speech.

Citizens United. In name of free speech, billionairs can give unlimited money to political candidates. But in Georgia, one cannot give a bottle of water to a voter in a long line at a voting site. That all of a sudden is not free speech.

Scientology has its Fair Game laws harassing and destroying its described enemies in numerous ways. Scientology has actually argued in courts this was protected religious speech according to the First Amendment. These attempts so far have been slapped down.

The US has instituted SLAPP laws to protect free speech from efforts to squelch free speech by well heeled legal abuses.

We are seing ALEC designed laws to outlaw legal protests with bad laws benefitting big business and right winged politics.
 
It would be whatever the law says inot illegal.

Fraud
conspiracy
slander
inciting a riot

A landmark SCOTUS case that had a big impact on speech was Hustler Magazine (aka Larry Flynt) vs Jerry Falwell(The Moral Majority).

Fallwell sued for defamation over a caricature.


Opinion of the court
"At the heart of the First Amendment is the recognition of the fundamental importance of the free flow of ideas and opinions on matters of public interest and concern. The freedom to speak one's mind is not only an aspect of individual liberty – and thus a good unto itself – but also is essential to the common quest for truth and the vitality of society as a whole. We have therefore been particularly vigilant to ensure that individual expressions of ideas remain free from governmentally imposed sanctions." The First Amendment envisions that the sort of robust political debate that takes place in a democracy will occasionally yield speech critical of public figures who are "intimately involved in the resolution of important public questions or, by reason of their fame, shape events in areas of concern to society at large". In New York Times, the court held that the First Amendment gives speakers immunity from sanction with respect to their speech concerning public figures unless their speech is both false and made with "actual malice", i.e., with knowledge of its falsehood or with reckless disregard for the truth of the statement. Although false statements lack inherent value, the "breathing space" that freedom of expression requires in order to flourish must tolerate occasional false statements, lest there be an intolerable chilling effect on speech that does have constitutional value.

To be sure, in other areas of the law, the specific intent to inflict emotional harm enjoys no protection. But with respect to speech concerning public figures, penalizing the intent to inflict emotional harm, without also requiring that the speech that inflicts that harm to be false, would subject political cartoonists and other satirists to large damage awards. "The appeal of the political cartoon or caricature is often based on exploitation of unfortunate physical traits or politically embarrassing events – an exploitation often calculated to injure the feelings of the subject of the portrayal". This was certainly true of the cartoons of Thomas Nast, who skewered Boss Tweed in the pages of Harper's Weekly. From a historical perspective, political discourse would have been considerably poorer without such cartoons.

Even if Nast's cartoons were not particularly offensive, Falwell argued that the Hustler parody advertisement in this case was so "outrageous" as to take it outside the scope of First Amendment protection. But "outrageous" is an inherently subjective term, susceptible to the personal taste of the jury empaneled to decide a case. Such a standard "runs afoul of our longstanding refusal to allow damages to be awarded because the speech in question may have an adverse emotional impact on the audience". So long as the speech at issue is not "obscene" and thus not subject to First Amendment protection, it should be subject to the actual-malice standard when it concerns public figures.

Clearly, Falwell was a public figure for purposes of First Amendment law. Because the district court found in favor of Flynt on the libel charge, there was no dispute as to whether the parody could be understood as describing facts about Falwell or events in which he participated. Accordingly, because the parody did not make false statements that were implied to be true, it could not be the subject of damages under the New York Times actual-malice standard. The court thus reversed the judgment of the Fourth Circuit.[1]
 
The Twitter meltdown thread got me thinking. I’d like to see what this group comes up with in an effort to create a tidy legal definition of “Free Speech” that would be useful for a society through its court system.
You have, I believe, built in some assumptions you should make explicit.

In defining the things included in 'free speech', do you mean 'anything we declare as 'free speech' shall never result in government action against the person making that speech, nor in the use of the court system for one private entity to effectively shut that speech down or claim damages against it'. Is that what you intend?


I don’t mean anything at all. What proposal would you make? HOw would you define it?
 
Perhaps one way to approah this is to think about things not acceptable to be free speech. Excitments to violence. Slander, libel. And of course what activities have in the past been called free speech.

Citizens United. In name of free speech, billionairs can give unlimited money to political candidates. But in Georgia, one cannot give a bottle of water to a voter in a long line at a voting site. That all of a sudden is not free speech.

Scientology has its Fair Game laws harassing and destroying its described enemies in numerous ways. Scientology has actually argued in courts this was protected religious speech according to the First Amendment. These attempts so far have been slapped down.

The US has instituted SLAPP laws to protect free speech from efforts to squelch free speech by well heeled legal abuses.

We are seing ALEC designed laws to outlaw legal protests with bad laws benefitting big business and right winged politics.


I think that is a good start to trying to create a definition. What is it NOT.

Excitments to violence. Slander, libel. I feel like there are more I’d accept as not-harmful to prohibit and harmful to permit andd hence not free speech.
 
Without reading any replies. Free speech is being able to say any and everything without the government using it against you. Other people or entities are a different story. Now of course a society can agree to certain lines.


I'll leave it at that.
 
The Twitter meltdown thread got me thinking. I’d like to see what this group comes up with in an effort to create a tidy legal definition of “Free Speech” that would be useful for a society through its court system.
You have, I believe, built in some assumptions you should make explicit.

In defining the things included in 'free speech', do you mean 'anything we declare as 'free speech' shall never result in government action against the person making that speech, nor in the use of the court system for one private entity to effectively shut that speech down or claim damages against it'. Is that what you intend?


I don’t mean anything at all. What proposal would you make? HOw would you define it?
Well, I would define 'free speech' as something close to what I wrote above. Contrastingly, I would define 'restricted speech' as that speech which COULD cause the government to punish you or a private citizen to take you to court. I believe the US Constitution has halted its slide into more and more restricted speech, a protection that others in the Anglosphere--Canadians, Australians, the UK--lack.

I am close to a free-speech absolutist, and I think most human speech and writing should be 'free speech'. There is room for libel and slander laws (restricted speech) but my sense of this is that it is too easy to bring and win libel and slander cases. There is room for a proscription on revealing information that would compromise national security (though again it bothers me that a government can simply claim something would compromise national security, but I don't know how to resolve that). There is room for proscription on direct incitement to violence or plausible death threats (by plausible, something like: a picture of your house and a message saying "I know you get home at 6 p.m. and my trigger finger has an itch". Implausible: God'll get you for that, Walter).

Almost everything that is currently proscribed under 'hate speech' in various jurisdictions should never have been proscribed. There should be zero 'blasphemy' laws of any kind. Any criticism of an ideology should be allowed, unless it falls into one of the restricted categories for another reason. Lese-majeste laws of any kind are absolute bullshit.

And, parallel to, or perhaps a corollary: there is almost no room for compelled speech of any kind. If I don't use your titles or honorifics or 'preferred pronouns', tough. If I do not want to pledge allegiance to a flag, or 'acknowledge the traditional owners of the land', tough.

Another corollary: there is almost no room for compelled or captive audiences. If nobody wants to listen to your speech, you have no right to compel people to do so.
 
Perhaps one way to approah this is to think about things not acceptable to be free speech. Excitments to violence. Slander, libel. And of course what activities have in the past been called free speech.

Citizens United. In name of free speech, billionairs can give unlimited money to political candidates. But in Georgia, one cannot give a bottle of water to a voter in a long line at a voting site. That all of a sudden is not free speech.

Scientology has its Fair Game laws harassing and destroying its described enemies in numerous ways. Scientology has actually argued in courts this was protected religious speech according to the First Amendment. These attempts so far have been slapped down.

The US has instituted SLAPP laws to protect free speech from efforts to squelch free speech by well heeled legal abuses.

We are seing ALEC designed laws to outlaw legal protests with bad laws benefitting big business and right winged politics.


I think that is a good start to trying to create a definition. What is it NOT.

Excitments to violence. Slander, libel. I feel like there are more I’d accept as not-harmful to prohibit and harmful to permit andd hence not free speech.

One cannot claim to be a doctor, a lawyer, or police officer and act as such, claiming that as a free speech right. One can bray loudly about being a soverien citizen, but acting on such a claim, for example when stopped by a policeman for no license plate, license or insurance is pushing free speech beyond the breaking point. If a business mandates wearing a mask, one cannot claim demanding such impinges on your freedom of speech. Sliding from purely verbal speech to acts claimed as free speech is a problem in redneck America.
 
Almost everything that is currently proscribed under 'hate speech' in various jurisdictions should never have been proscribed. There should be zero 'blasphemy' laws of any kind. Any criticism of an ideology should be allowed, unless it falls into one of the restricted categories for another reason. Lese-majeste laws of any kind are absolute bullshit.
Is there a particular US hate speech prosecution you feel went too far?
 
Almost everything that is currently proscribed under 'hate speech' in various jurisdictions should never have been proscribed. There should be zero 'blasphemy' laws of any kind. Any criticism of an ideology should be allowed, unless it falls into one of the restricted categories for another reason. Lese-majeste laws of any kind are absolute bullshit.
Is there a particular US hate speech prosecution you feel went too far?
None that I am aware of, but I made the point earlier in the same post that the US has not slid into the same restrictions on speech as deeply as the rest of the Anglosphere because of its Constitution.
 
I would say: any claim to be taken in good faith that the person making the claim will do some thing is not merely speech, it is a statement of intent, and if that intent is "to commit a crime", then that is not "free speech", it is criminal intent, and the law should be deputized to believe folks.

Any claim of fact to which a sizable minority would feel compulsion to act upon, against the safety of an individual without due process is not "free speech". It is incitement.

Any claim of fact upon which some trade of goods, services, or currency which is made in the contradiction of evidence, regardless of whether or not that evidence is presented, is not "free speech". It is fraud.

Any claim of fact about an individual person in the contradiction of evidence, or in the absence of a need for public disclosure is not "free speech". It is libel and/or slander; defamation.

Directing targeted, unwanted speech in a situation which someone is captive to is not "free speech". It is harassment.

Things bought from others, even their mimicry or rendering of some thing otherwise "speech", in exchange for compensation, is not actually speech: it is paid, leveraged action.

Free speech is, additionally, speech that uniform collective response is barred from interfering with. "Uniform, collective response" is how we can, should, and do do in response to violations of public safety and order. It is the authorization to the operation of the law.

Speech which is "free" is still not protected against private and individual response within the boundaries of the law. The response of a business to allow customer access is not "private" nor is it "individual". It is acting on behalf of a publicly licensed business, a business which has made the promise that they will serve all of the public freely, regardless of their speech, within the boundaries of the services and products offered.

Likewise the response of a government official is not private nor individual. They represent "unified collective action", the face of "all of us, together, united". Thus what they say is not free speech, but bound to say no thing against speech which is free.

Sometimes speech can be both incitement and defamation at the same time.

Loudly telling someone in a bar that someone else looks queer, for example, could be defamation, incitement and harassment depending on the exact context.

Yelling "fire" in a crowded nightclub is almost certainly incitement.

I'm not sure if there are any other big buckets of controlled speech?

Free speech is exactly speech which compels no harm, expresses no compulsion to harm, picks no pockets, asks no fee, and which leaves individuals to their private lives.
 
free_speech.png
 
Almost everything that is currently proscribed under 'hate speech' in various jurisdictions should never have been proscribed. There should be zero 'blasphemy' laws of any kind. Any criticism of an ideology should be allowed, unless it falls into one of the restricted categories for another reason. Lese-majeste laws of any kind are absolute bullshit.
Is there a particular US hate speech prosecution you feel went too far?

Not exactly hate speech, but Eugene Debbs sent to prison for opposing America's entry into WW1 comes to mind. Civil rights champions who were imprisoned on various pretexts or harrassed by Hoover's FBI are also sobering examplies of free speech abridged wrongfully.
 
Almost everything that is currently proscribed under 'hate speech' in various jurisdictions should never have been proscribed. There should be zero 'blasphemy' laws of any kind. Any criticism of an ideology should be allowed, unless it falls into one of the restricted categories for another reason. Lese-majeste laws of any kind are absolute bullshit.
Is there a particular US hate speech prosecution you feel went too far?

Not exactly hate speech, but Eugene Debbs sent to prison for opposing America's entry into WW1 comes to mind. Civil rights champions who were imprisoned on various pretexts or harrassed by Hoover's FBI are also sobering examplies of free speech abridged wrongfully.
I don't think I'd consider those examples of hate speech, at least as it is known today. Still despicable though.

Didn't Debbs run for president from his jail cell?

Trump says journalists are "the enemy of the people." We all know if he had the chance he'd jail any journalist who said anything he didn't like.
 
Yes, Debbs ran from a prison cell for president. He recieved over 1 million votes. Sometimes, free speech is what the authoritarian bastards say is. Abuses of power.
 
I believe there are a few avenues of discussion: types of verbal communication that a government has interest in regulating, the breadth of what is considered expression (going beyond "speech"), and venue. And unfortunately, while reasonable concessions can be made in this discussion, there appear to be divides on certain bounds that can't be managed.

Firstly, there are other types of speech that can be problematic and the Government has an interest in dealing with it. I think the term free speech originally was intended to mean the Government could not punish people for speaking or expressing negative opinions of it, other than acts of sedition. However, we've learned from nearly 250 years of history that there are . In general, when discussing free speech, there is the conservative view which likes to look at the founding of the nation and speak from that angle. Liberals are more likely to be in the present day and not ignore 250 years of history under the Constitution.

Then there is speech v expression. Expression can exist outside of words. Conservatives will use a very very very broad definition of expression that includes just about any act. Liberals feel it expression needs to be more direct and clear, and not nearly adjacent. The mere act of selling something is considered "expression" by some conservatives.

Venue is a big part of this as this again is a problem conservatives and liberals have in reconciling, especially as it is a social issue and not a political one. Someone can say some nasty anti-minority stuff and they don't go to jail, but they can suffer (at least temporarily) some social lash out. This is in part, addressed by XKCD up above. Often, there is a lot of complaining about "cancelling" around this. Ugly speech is generally classified under free speech. There is no government arresting people for saying x or y, as long as violence or threat there of isn't implied. Then there is the issue of racism and not being allowed a venue to speak at. There are arguments that this is anti-free speech. The idea of that people are entitled to speak as they want where they want. Which I think is ridiculous. I have no right to privilege to speak at The Ohio State University, period. But if Ann Coulter is protested out of there, then some people get upset.

As can be seen, "free speech" isn't a particularly easy subject and muddling is quite easy, quite early on. There are topics regarding the Governments ability (or limitations on said ability) to regulate speech. There are topics about generalized social sphere free speech and whether it is right or wrong to impede certain speakers from certain venues. And then there is merely an argument as to what is the limit of what is expression. I think the last part is the trickiest because some people are willing to leave the term expression so widely defined, as to make any manner of action a form of expression.
 
Almost everything that is currently proscribed under 'hate speech' in various jurisdictions should never have been proscribed. There should be zero 'blasphemy' laws of any kind. Any criticism of an ideology should be allowed, unless it falls into one of the restricted categories for another reason. Lese-majeste laws of any kind are absolute bullshit.
Is there a particular US hate speech prosecution you feel went too far?

Not exactly hate speech, but Eugene Debbs sent to prison for opposing America's entry into WW1 comes to mind. Civil rights champions who were imprisoned on various pretexts or harrassed by Hoover's FBI are also sobering examplies of free speech abridged wrongfully.
Eugene Debbs didn't but Eugene V. Debs did. He'd nearly score 1 million votes from jail, but he did better percentage wise in 1912 in the craziest of multi-candidate elections. His criticism of entry in The Great War got him tried and convicted of violating the Espionage Act. He served three years (!) and ran from jail in the 1920 election... of which he was already kind of a household name, at least among labor.
 
Free speech is very difficult to define. I think we know what type of speech violates the law when it comes to lying under oath etc, but lately, there have been a lot of people making death threats, and that is illegal and should be obviously illegal. I'm just not sure that a lot of people realize that. In Georgia, if you make a direct threat against someone, you can be charged with making a "terroristic threat". I would have no problem in making blanket death threats or other types of violent threats against a particular group of people a crime. To me, this type of speech has the potential to incite violence or influence some goon who might take it seriously. Plus, we don't know if one is serious when they make a violent threat, which is why it's a crime.

Think of the QANON crap that makes outrageous claims about Democrats, sometimes influencing extremists to commit or attempt to commit violence. I don't see why such outrageous, potentially dangerous lies should be protected by the 1st Amendment. Imo, the concept of free speech has been abused and we need to redefine what is meant by that term. At least as clearly as possible. Maybe the problem is there is so much violent hate speech these days that it's impossible to arrest most of the violators, especially since many try to be anonymous.

It's fine to criticize the government or the people running it, as long as your criticisms aren't potentially violent or so extreme that they may incite violence. I think, probably somewhat due to social media, that the concept of free speech has been abused. It's too bad that we don't live in a civil society where people can disagree without attacking each other, including with violent rhetoric.
 
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