UK thought police arrest woman for silent prayer

[Gospel]

And how is that different than a restraining order? Different label, same basic concept.

Different in almost every conceivable aspect.

A "restraining order", AVO, ASBO, etc applies to a person and generally restricts who they can contact and how close they can be to another person.

A PSPO applies to everyone and forbids them from otherwise perfectly legal activities in a specific defined geography.

Specific defined geography? I don't understand what that means nor what it has to do with her right to pray in her head being taken away.

 

[Rhea]

A PSPO applies to everyone and forbids them from otherwise perfectly legal activities in a specific defined geography.

There you go. Now you understand why she was arrested.

 

[TomC]

A PSPO applies to everyone and forbids them from otherwise perfectly legal activities in a specific defined geography.

There you go. Now you understand why she was arrested.

I don't understand why this is complex.

It didn't matter if she was praying or contemplating her grocery list. The Birmingham locals had drawn a buffer zone around the clinic to stop harassment. People with legitimate business there were fine, people who didn't have legitimate business were removed.

Nothing to do with thoughts or prayers.
Tom

ETA ~Cynical as I am, I can't help but think this episode was really the kickoff to her fundraiser.~

 

[laughing dog]

This was obviously a publicity stunt to
1) gain sympathy from the general public,
2) garner international support to eliminate the PSPO,
3) attract more protesters, and
4) raise funds.

If you watch the video, it doesn't start with the initial contact between the police officer and the woman. It starts (or was cut to begin) to show the "best" side of the protester's position.

 

[Rhea]

Going back to the OP to confirm context and I am seeing this post on the first page. It’s so interesting what people will try to hide during their commplaint. For instance

it’s very revealing which religions are tolerated in the UK. A Christian woman standing near an abortion clinic, possibly praying gets lifted by plod almost immediately. The loons from extinction rebellion who disrupt traffic and emergency vehicles by sitting in the road are pretty much left alone.

If by “almost immediately” you mean “after YEARS of doing this every other day.
So cumulatively, we can estimate she “gets lifted by the plod” after doing it for over 500 days, maybe 1000 days?

That is SO NOT “immediately,” yanno?

Making this other item from page one particularly prescient:

She was trespassing in an area she was not allowed to be in. It has nothing to do with the silent prayer.

Damn, you're a sucker for these bullshit stories.

 

[ZiprHead]

ETA ~Cynical as I am, I can't help but think this episode was really the kickoff to her fundraiser.~

Bingo!

 

[Metaphor]

You said from the get-go (well after you talked for a while about some other protest and how they deserved to be removed) that you don’t think she was doing anything intimidating

On the occasion when she was standing silently, correct.

and therefore don’t understand how she violated the law and that it was overreach.

The PSPO is a bad law, as I've said, and bans things it ought not ban--which includes standing silently on public property. Since the law bans praying whilst in the exclusion zone, I can see how she violated it. And it's a terrible law.

And I find a woman who was not blocking anyone's day to day business and praying silently to be far less worthy of removal and arrest than the ones who intend and do in fact cause disruption, delay, and destruction of property.

And so, yes, all of that leads me to have the following understanding:

I understand from everything that you’ve written that you do not understand the harm this woman has done, is doing, and plans to do in the future; and that subsequently the efforts to stop that harm seem like overreach to you.

Well, your understanding is incorrect. First, I know what the woman has done in the past. Second, merely standing silently on public property is not 'harm'. Third, you do not know what this woman plans to do in the future.

If this woman is the problem, I would ban her from the exclusion zone. I would not ban every member of the public from silent prayer inside an exclusion zone, which is straight up fascism.

 

[Metaphor]

Specific defined geography? I don't understand what that means nor what it has to do with her right to pray in her head being taken away.

There is a map in the PSPO which defines the borders of the exclusion zone. Within the borders, the PSPO applies.

 

[Metaphor]

A PSPO applies to everyone and forbids them from otherwise perfectly legal activities in a specific defined geography.

There you go. Now you understand why she was arrested.

Well, yes. I've understood why she was arrested from the start.

 

[Metaphor]

It didn't matter if she was praying or contemplating her grocery list. The Birmingham locals had drawn a buffer zone around the clinic to stop harassment. People with legitimate business there were fine, people who didn't have legitimate business were removed.

No. "Legitimate business" is not in the PSPO. "Protesting" (as defined by the PSPO) is the banned activity.

 

[TomC]

A PSPO applies to everyone and forbids them from otherwise perfectly legal activities in a specific defined geography.

There you go. Now you understand why she was arrested.

Well, yes. I've understood why she was arrested from the start.

Then why did you think she was arrested for silent praying?

She wasn't.

It's obvious.
Tom

 

[TomC]

It didn't matter if she was praying or contemplating her grocery list. The Birmingham locals had drawn a buffer zone around the clinic to stop harassment. People with legitimate business there were fine, people who didn't have legitimate business were removed.

No. "Legitimate business" is not in the PSPO. "Protesting" (as defined by the PSPO) is the banned activity.

No it isn't.

Look at the ordinance. She wasn't banned, or arrested, for her behavior.

She just wasn't.
Tom

 

[Metaphor]

A PSPO applies to everyone and forbids them from otherwise perfectly legal activities in a specific defined geography.

There you go. Now you understand why she was arrested.

Well, yes. I've understood why she was arrested from the start.

Then why did you think she was arrested for silent praying?

She wasn't.

It's obvious.
Tom

Tom, you have expressed a number of misunderstandings of the PSPO. She was arrested because she was protesting. One of the activities that indicated she was protesting was her silent prayer.

 

[TomC]

A PSPO applies to everyone and forbids them from otherwise perfectly legal activities in a specific defined geography.

There you go. Now you understand why she was arrested.

Well, yes. I've understood why she was arrested from the start.

Then why did you think she was arrested for silent praying?

She wasn't.

It's obvious.
Tom

Tom, you have expressed a number of misunderstandings of the PSPO. She was arrested because she was protesting. One of the activities that indicated she was protesting was her silent prayer.

Bullshit.

I've pointed out that she was breaking the law.

You don't think that people have a right to make laws concerning their own neighborhoods. I get that. You don't think that the Birmingham locals have any right to upset an Australian faggot by telling the other people who live in Birmingham where they can pray/harass their neighbors.

Yeah, I get it.
I don't think so, but I understand that you do.

 

[Metaphor]

Bullshit.

I've pointed out that she was breaking the law.

Yes. She was protesting in the exclusion zone.

You don't think that people have a right to make laws concerning their own neighborhoods. I get that.

No, you don't 'get it', Tom, because I did not say or imply that. "The right to make laws" does not mean "any law you make is a good law".

 

[TomC]

Yes. She was protesting in the exclusion zone.

Do you think she was deliberately and knowingly breaking the law, in her locality?

Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I believe that it is, and I said so. I’ve posted and reposted the parts of the order that I believe covers it.

”including but not limited to”

The order that was written to try to stop the bullying by this group of clinic patrons and a neighborhood. That they have been bullying for years. Bullies don’t get a free pass for finding new and creative ways to bully claiming it’s just one step outside of the rules created to stop the bullying.

The law must be discoverable, Rhea, no matter how much you think standing silently somewhere is 'bullying'.

Nope. As you can see by the dialogue Arctish is quoting, she admits to the bullying behavior.

No, she does not. "Bullying" is your characterisation. I do not believe standing silently is "bullying" behaviour. My bullies did a hell of a lot more than 'stand silently'.

The religious right has a common tactic of trying to find "innocent" ways to break restrictions. Then they go screaming to the press that they were punished for doing nothing wrong. It's a way of stirring up the sheep but people who actually pay attention to what happened realize they did do something wrong.

That she is there because it is an abortion clinic and she intends to be in its space because it is an abortion clinic. She has a purpose and a goal and it is to disrupt the peace.

"Disrupting the peace" is your characterisation.

You are. You’re saying that you think it’s okay to bully because no one can write an order specific enough to stop her from it.

No. I am saying writing a PSPO that is so subjective and wide-ranging that it forbids silent prayer and is reliant on a police officer's subjective interpretation of 'protesting activity' is bad.

This was a deliberate stunt to get exactly the result she got and rile up the sheep.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And how is that different than a restraining order? Different label, same basic concept.

Different in almost every conceivable aspect.

A "restraining order", AVO, ASBO, etc applies to a person and generally restricts who they can contact and how close they can be to another person.

A PSPO applies to everyone and forbids them from otherwise perfectly legal activities in a specific defined geography.

Both are the same basic concept: Behavior that would normally be legal is causing trouble, therefore a special restriction is made on the scenario that has been causing trouble. Whether it's a person or an area doesn't change this.

 

[Metaphor]

Do you think she was deliberately and knowingly breaking the law, in her locality?

Tom

It isn't obvious to me one way or another. Obviously she was not doing any of the things (public prayer, signs, multi-person lineups, reading/speaking aloud) that led to the creation of the PSPO. Those things were explicitly and obviously forbidden. I think she read the PSPO and thought "I'll see if standing silently outside the clinic will be interpreted as protesting". Rhea would call it 'edgelording' or some such, but in legal jurisprudence I think I would call it a 'test case'.

 

[Metaphor]

And how is that different than a restraining order? Different label, same basic concept.

Different in almost every conceivable aspect.

A "restraining order", AVO, ASBO, etc applies to a person and generally restricts who they can contact and how close they can be to another person.

A PSPO applies to everyone and forbids them from otherwise perfectly legal activities in a specific defined geography.

Both are the same basic concept: Behavior that would normally be legal is causing trouble, therefore a special restriction is made on the scenario that has been causing trouble. Whether it's a person or an area doesn't change this.

It changes it fundamentally.