Driving around Chiang Mai

[Swammerdami]

I recently moved to Chiang Mai, Thailand. This is a major tourist destination; so Infidels may visit often. Message me and we'll meet for coffee, lunch or beer.

Chiang Mai in northern Thailand is a popular location for expats, retirees, and digital nomads, who are tempted by the ease of living and the blend of familiar and exotic. It has everything you need, from cinemas and shopping malls to international cuisine, but it's not a bland Westernised city.

It might be fun to have a thread for questions and comments about Chiang Mai. But first: What is Chiang Mai? Chiang Mai Province is the largest in area of Thailand's 77 provinces — it's about the size of New Jersey — but I'm speaking of Chiang Mai City. The Province is divided into 25 districts, one of which is called, variously, Central District, Chiang Mai District, or Chiang Mai City District. The Chiang Mai municipality is a subset of that District. At  List of municipalities in Thailand see that Chiang Mai city is shown with 122,000 population and ranks only #8 among the Kingdom's cities. WHAT? Chiang Mai is called Thailand's second-largest city — what's the #8 ranking with only 122,000 people?? Another webpage shows Chiang Mai as #7 with 200,000 population. What's the deal? Don't the Thais do censuses?

The Chiang Mai "urban area" includes parts of several other districts, for a total population of 1.2 million. We live in Chiang Mai City District itself but still wouldn't be counted in the city population for three reasons:

1. That district contains ten other municipalities distinct from Chiang Mai; we live in one of those.
2. My family is still registered in our old Province. Many Thais stay in a new province for many years without ever changing their address registration. This may be especially true for renters, for whom the re-registration paperwork might be very tedious.
3. I don't think I would appear in ANY official population counts anyway, because I am an alien.

Chiang Mai has a huge number of tourists, permanent or semi-permanent expats, immigrants from Myanmar, etc. There may be 250,000 in the province who identify as a non-Thai ethnic group ("Hill people"); some of these are not registered. The 1.2 million in the urban area is likely to be an under-estimate.

Anyway, the parts of the City closest to the center may be most interesting. I've attached a map of the Old City of Chiang Mai, official population about 14,000 within the central square. Chiang Mai means "New City", and "Old City" refers to the original "New City" built 730 years ago.

With some cities you might want to avoid the center when driving from one side of the city to the other, but I usually just head for the clockwise road which circumnavigates the Old City. That road has a west-bound segment to the South almost exactly one mile long; a north-bound segment to the West also a mile long, and east-bound and south-bound segments, a mile each. Just inside the clockwise road is a moat, dredged 700 years ago to keep the Burmese out; then a wall (mostly missing now), then a counter-clockwise road, each segment about 0.95 miles. Those roads have no traffic lights (except for pedestrian assistance)and I find them very convenient: Going to the Night Bazaar from the SW corner of the Old City, head north on Clockwise road, make a U-turn to the counterclockwise road, follow it until you're northbound on the East segment, then make another U-turn onto clockwise road.

Driving in Chiang Mai is an experience. Give a big round of applause to Chiang Mai drivers — I find it amazing there are so few accident.s.

I'll write more if there's interest.

 

[Elixir]

What’s the cost of housing like?

 

[Swammerdami]

What’s the cost of housing like?

I'm not expert on this topic and anyway there are many variables. You'll know more than me if you Google "Chiang Mai houses for sale" and study. (Many of the hits will be to Facbook — many businesses in Thailand use Facebook for their website.)

Having said that, 3 to 5 million baht might be typical for a new 3-bedroom tract house half an hour from the city center. That's about $90,000 to $150,000 U.S. What's the prettiest city in the U.S. where you could buy at that price?

My daughter and I had a difference in opinions and since the house was for her — I'll probably cohabit for at most a decade or two — I left it up to her. Up to me, I'd try to buy in the very center: — the Old City or the Night Bazaar nearby to the East. Or — an EXTREMELY lovely part of the city — named with the Thai word for "behind University." That's 2 or 3 miles west of the Old City, a fun student neighborhood with restaurants and dorms. What does a house there cost? I don't know; they seem to appear in on-line ads VERY rarely if at all!
Any advice would be welcome!​

 

[Elixir]

What's the prettiest city in the U.S. where you could buy at that price?

Not sure but I think it’s a burned out slum suburb of Dogpatch.

 

[Swammerdami]

One reason I love the "Lang Mor" ("behind University") part of the city is that it leads up to the Wat Umong (temple) in the hills 3 miles SW of the Old City. I'm not a temple fan, but that's one of my favorites in the entire Kingdom!

(Chiang Mai has several University's, but when used without qualifier 'University' refers to the large relatively prestigious CMU.)

I loved it BEFORE I learned (by Googling just now) that Wat Umong was built by King Mangrai. Yes, that very same King Mangrai of the Lanna Kingdom who also founded New City (ChgMai) and also founded TWO other kingdom capitals BEFORE Chiang Mai! To wit, Chiang Rai and, serving capital only very briefly until flood patterns were observed  Wiang Kum Kam 2 miles south of New City (aka Old City in present-day speech).
BUT . . .

Or — an EXTREMELY lovely part of the city — named with the Thai word for "behind University." That's 2 or 3 miles west of the Old City, a fun student neighborhood with restaurants and dorms. What does a house there cost? I don't know; they seem to appear in on-line ads VERY rarely if at all!
Any advice would be welcome![/INDENT]

I neglected to mention the Elephant in the Room, a big obstacle to some or many locations in Chiang Mai, though often for varying reasons, hinted at in the thread title: Driving in Chiang Mai. (At least for me it's a no-brainer in the night time: When night driving might become an issue I'm the designated NON-driver. I need to grab a Grab. (Do you guys and gals grab Grab taxi where you live?)

Do you guys do U-turns in USA? Or Oz, Europe, wherever? Let's exclude the case where you make a left turn, spin around and right turn or vice versa.
IIRC, U-turns were not particularly common in the U.S. Where would you make U-turns?

In Thailand in general, and Chiang Mai City most specifically, U-turns are VERY common. I've already mentioned Google Maps suggested route from airport to Night Bazaar which makes 2 U-turns at the Old City square roads. From the airport to my home I have my choice of two U-Turns. To say more would facilitate a CM enthusiast to locate me!

Historical note:

After defeating the Hariphunchai kingdom, Mangrai decided to relocate his capital, and in 1294, Wiang Kum Kam was founded on the eastern bank of the Ping River.[4][5] The site was plagued with floods, and a new site was chosen several kilometres to the northwest at the foot of Doi Suthep, on the site of an older fortified town of the Lua people.[6] Construction of Chiang Mai (lit. "New City") began in 1296. and it has been the capital of the northern provinces more or less ever since.[1]

A few years later, Yi Ba's son, King Boek of Lampang, attacked Chiang Mai with a large army. King Mangrai and his second son, Prince Khram, led the defence against the Lampang army.

 

[rousseau]

This is something I'd likely enjoy doing in retirement (moving to some obscure place with a low cost of living). But I imagine parenthood will be for life; I can't imagine moving this far away from my kids unless they end up moving away from me first.

Even now, I'd love to get out of the current city we're in. BUT Canada is a good place to be, and my wife's entire family is within 45 minutes of us. My parents are 75 minutes away. Living abroad sounds appealing until you get there and have no contacts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm sure I wouldn't recognize it, it was nearly 50 years ago when I visited.

 

[Swammerdami]

Wow! My first visit was only 40 years ago. One big change over those decades: When I first visited, taxis were set up to get kickbacks from vendors (and many venues operated two-price schemes or such). I once telephoned a furniture store: they insisted on sending a car for me — they did NOT want me coming by taxi. I once was contacted by a taxi-driver to confirm I had bought nothing: the store wanted its kickback back.

Today, Chiang Mai is dominated by young modern-thinking people; I THINK such kickbacks (and much other corruption) are largely a thing of the past.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I feel fortunate living in Chiang Mai when I read of bad weather elsewhere. Do you want to hear my big complaint about the Chiang Mai winter that's ending soon? Before winter my daughter bought me a lovely jacket to keep warm — sort of "faux fur." But it's never gotten cold enough for me to wear the jacket. Google forecasts 17°C (63°F) at 2:00 AM tonight — Cold enough to wear the jacket. But I am NOT a night-owl, and don't think Chiang Mai caters to all-night partying anyway. 9 PM (my night-life speed) is forecast as 21°C (70°F). Will I need to find some 6 AM errands (14°C) just to get a chance to wear my jacket?

And our very brief winter is already almost over. Even with our higher latitude and higher elevation, summer will be much too hot.

I think I mentioned in another thread the tree-crippling storm that raged when I first drove to Chiang Mai some months ago, but we've had nothing like that since. About three months ago, the Ping River overflowed but that was just two days inconvenience. (The Ping River merges with various other tributaries and eventually becomes Bangkok's Chao Phya River.)

 

[Swammerdami]

Let's mention some of the things that make Chiang Mai great.

It is cosmopolitan, with residents and tourists from many countries.. It has a wide variety of restaurants. The View, for example, is cheerful, very reasonably priced, and one of the largest restaurants I've ever seen. There are pretty waterfalls nearby, and elephant shows, etc. The weather is very pleasant: Just avoid the summer which peaks in April. (Although it gets uncomfortably hot in April, it's not as hot then as most of Thailand.) The cost of living is low. People are very friendly.

Although a metropolis of 1,000,000+ population, much of the city has a small city or tourist resort atmosphere. The Tha-Phae Gate area at the eastern edge of the Old City reminds me of the pleasant downtown of Santa Cruz, California, or even some neighborhoods in Europe's ancient cities.

I'm not very familiar with the night life (which may not have fully recovered from Covid shutdowns). There are many pleasant massage parlors, especially near the Tha-Phae Gate area. Grass is legal and the city has dozens of cannabis dispensaries. (The prices are much higher than we used to pay for illegal cannabis upcountry!)

For many tourists, the City is a base from which to go on trekking or camping adventures. I am not so adventurous.

Come visit!

 

[Swammerdami]

Tha-Phae means "Ferry landing"; and Tha-Phae Road runs from the Ping River to Tha-Phae Gate — the eastern entrance to the Old City. As I've said, Tha-Phae Gate is a favorite destination for tourists, with lots of guest-houses, restaurants, bars, massage parlors, book-stores (and cannabis dispensaries!) Immediately to the west there is a HUGE walking-street market on Sunday evenings. At the gate itself is a large open area where there are often events: fairs, festivals, displays, or even a beauty contest.

I don't use my camera much but took a picture of Tha-Phae Gate at the time of the Loy Krathong Festival, which was November 8 in 2022. (Loy Krathong Water Festival is celebrated all over Thailand, and coincides with the Yi Peng Sky Festival celebrated in the North.) Here's the Gate with sky lanterns ready for lift-off in the evening:


I took some more pictures at the Gate during the New Years celebration:

 

[Elixir]

View attachment 41826

Why are there only women?

 

[Swammerdami]

View attachment 41826

Why are there only women?

The men are off drinking beer or getting massaged, maybe.

 

[Copernicus]

My wife and I visited there in 2014. We took a train up from Bangkok and an overnight train back. We spent a couple of days visiting the major wats, eating local cuisine, and taking share taxis around town. A beautiful town and well worth the visit.

 

[Swammerdami]

This is something I'd likely enjoy doing in retirement (moving to some obscure place with a low cost of living). But I imagine parenthood will be for life; I can't imagine moving this far away from my kids unless they end up moving away from me first.

Even now, I'd love to get out of the current city we're in. BUT Canada is a good place to be, and my wife's entire family is within 45 minutes of us. My parents are 75 minutes away. Living abroad sounds appealing until you get there and have no contacts.

This is the big drawback to exotic retirement! One is unable to visit relatives and friends frequently. Language and culture barriers may also pose a problem. And depending on life-style the reduction in cost of living may not be as much as hoped.

Most of the retirement-age expats here have Thai spouses. Those who don't, or who settle in the Kingdom long before retirement age, often have weirdnesses of one sort or another. I'm rather asocial so becoming an ex-pat was less of an issue for me.

My American relatives loved my Thai wife Loureiri, and she loved them. But she had important contacts in Thailand also. I'd hoped for us to migrate back and forth between two countries, but U.S. Immigration rules presented obstacles. My children have dual citizenship but no interest in moving to U.S.A. despite the economic opportunities.

 

[Swammerdami]

I live in a hard-to-get-to residential neighborhood (my daughter makes a dangerous illegal U-turn just to get to the nearest 7-Eleven) but there are several charming coffee-shops nearby. Today I went to one for the first time, almost within walking distance of our house. I don't use my phone-camera much but posting photos upthread has set a precedent and I took photos in the coffee-shop.



At the opposite side of the small coffee-shop from where I am sitting see TWO phonograph players, one of which was playing a jazz album when I walked in. This is the first time I recall seeing a phonograph player during this century.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most of the retirement-age expats here have Thai spouses. Those who don't, or who settle in the Kingdom long before retirement age, often have weirdnesses of one sort or another. I'm rather asocial so becoming an ex-pat was less of an issue for me.

This doesn't surprise me at all. Moving to a different language/culture is a huge jump and thus there needs to be a very good reason for it. The main things that can provide such a push are love, money and fleeing an unsafe situation. If someone has taken the leap for none of those reasons I would suspect they are fleeing something that's not obvious.

 

[rousseau]

This is something I'd likely enjoy doing in retirement (moving to some obscure place with a low cost of living). But I imagine parenthood will be for life; I can't imagine moving this far away from my kids unless they end up moving away from me first.

Even now, I'd love to get out of the current city we're in. BUT Canada is a good place to be, and my wife's entire family is within 45 minutes of us. My parents are 75 minutes away. Living abroad sounds appealing until you get there and have no contacts.

This is the big drawback to exotic retirement! One is unable to visit relatives and friends frequently. Language and culture barriers may also pose a problem. And depending on life-style the reduction in cost of living may not be as much as hoped.

Most of the retirement-age expats here have Thai spouses. Those who don't, or who settle in the Kingdom long before retirement age, often have weirdnesses of one sort or another. I'm rather asocial so becoming an ex-pat was less of an issue for me.

My American relatives loved my Thai wife Loureiri, and she loved them. But she had important contacts in Thailand also. I'd hoped for us to migrate back and forth between two countries, but U.S. Immigration rules presented obstacles. My children have dual citizenship but no interest in moving to U.S.A. despite the economic opportunities.

So what's your story? You moved there earlier on in life, then?

 

[Worldtraveller]

This is something I'd likely enjoy doing in retirement (moving to some obscure place with a low cost of living). But I imagine parenthood will be for life; I can't imagine moving this far away from my kids unless they end up moving away from me first.

Even now, I'd love to get out of the current city we're in. BUT Canada is a good place to be, and my wife's entire family is within 45 minutes of us. My parents are 75 minutes away. Living abroad sounds appealing until you get there and have no contacts.

I'm leaning strongly towards doing the ex-pat thing when I retire, but I don't have any family left, and my friends and I can still keep in touch with the means we mostly do anyway (facebook and phone calls) since we are scattered all over the country, mostly due to my moving around so much.

Right now, I'm leaning strongly towards Costa Rica, but I have only started doing the research in the last couple months.

 

[southernhybrid]

This is something I'd likely enjoy doing in retirement (moving to some obscure place with a low cost of living). But I imagine parenthood will be for life; I can't imagine moving this far away from my kids unless they end up moving away from me first.

Even now, I'd love to get out of the current city we're in. BUT Canada is a good place to be, and my wife's entire family is within 45 minutes of us. My parents are 75 minutes away. Living abroad sounds appealing until you get there and have no contacts.

I'm leaning strongly towards doing the ex-pat thing when I retire, but I don't have any family left, and my friends and I can still keep in touch with the means we mostly do anyway (facebook and phone calls) since we are scattered all over the country, mostly due to my moving around so much.

Right now, I'm leaning strongly towards Costa Rica, but I have only started doing the research in the last couple months.

I usually don't read this thread, but I took a short look today and when you mentioned Costa Rica, I had to respond. About 20 years ago, I had a dream of moving to Costa Rica. I loved the idea that a large percentage of the land would never be developed and the country has no military. Plus it's a beautiful country. I even started to brush up on my Spanish in anticipation that we might move. At that time, homes were very inexpensive. I spent a lot of time looking at real estate and dreaming. I could never convince my husband to leave the US, so I stopped thinking about it.

A few years ago, I took another look just for fun. I read that expats tended to live in areas by themselves and that a good percentage of them never adjusted and ended up returning to the US. There are also some strange rules related to housing. I think if you're away for a certain amount of time and someone starts living in your home, they can claim it for their own, something like that. Housing had become more expensive by that time as well. I'm not sure if it's as easy for those of us from the US to migrate there as it once was. I assume you probably have researched all of that. Anyway, if I had to leave the country, Costa Rica would still probably be my first choice. I hope you will be happy there if that's what you decide to do. I'm too old now to make such a big change so I'm stuck in the good ole USA. Plus I do have a son and two grandchildren that live in Indianapolis, so if we move it will be to Indy, just to be near them. In the meantime, my heart is here in Georgia, as are all of my friends.

 

[Swammerdami]

I'm certainly no expert on Retirement in foreign countries but I am opinionated!

I think expats might be disappointed if the major reason of the move is just a lower cost of living. Better is if you appreciate a specific foreign culture, or will enjoy the challenge of adaptation. If you seek American life-style in a foreign country you may end up disappointed on both grounds.

I love Thailand, and I love the character of the Thai people. Crime is VERY low; and friendliness is everywhere! (Some people get bad impressions — the Thais you are most likely to meet in tourist venues are self-selected to be people trying to exploit tourists.)

Healthcare may be an issue. A priority for ex-pats in Thailand should be to find doctor(s) and dentist(s) in whom you have confidence. Bangkok in particular is renowned for a few excellent private hospitals, The prices may be much cheaper than in America but still high if you need major surgery. (Do American insurance plans or Medicare cover medical expenses when abroad? Health insurance is now a prerequisite here for long-term stays, though not for me — I was "grandfathered in.")