Tough Moral Quandary

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is an interesting one.

In Akron, a few teens were messing around. Fired some water pistol gun thing at people playing basketball. The people that were targeted took issue. And a scuffle broke out. One punch, and one of the group that were messing around slams the back of his head on the ground, and the trauma kills him.

They tried to get pretty harsh charges on the teen brothers who fought back, and are now going to trial for first and third degree involuntary manslaughter. There is an article from the Beacon Journal, but you might need a subscription.

Reading the circumstances, it seems like a group of teens came to needlessly make trouble, and one of them needlessly died, but what led to the death was relatively benign... ie, nothing happened with any intent to kill or create a situation where death was a reasonable outcome of the actions. The teens on trial haven't had a violent criminal past.

It just seems so petty. Petty teens cause petty harm leading to petty fisticuffs leading to very consequential results in the death on of the teens.

 

[steve_bank]

These days anyone regardless of age who points anything looking like a gun at people puts themselves in danger let alone the other people.

Around here kids shooting kids are becoming routine. Recent shootings at playgrounds. Kids playing basketball shot at.

It all goes to my point about a general breakdown in culture and civil order.

On a local broadcast TV sattion I saw a scene in an ultra violent movie where a teen is holding a gun against the head of another teen talking tough. Another scene where a group of teems have anoter kid on the groud kicking the shit out f him.

Reaping what we sow.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The point of the OP was that no one did anything that should have resulted in death... yet someone died anyway. This is the trouble with chaos. As Jesus and Gandhi both said "Shit happens."

But when there is no intent for such an ultimate outcome, and none of the actions that led up to it should have led to the outcome of death, how do you manage it? Is sending a teen to prison for punching someone that was with a group that was antagonizing them remotely justice, even if someone did die?

 

[Gospel]

I'll get these out of the way.

"If the races were reversed Akron would be burned down because a bunch of white individuals killed a black person"

While that may be true, you should also remember

"play stupid games win stupid prizes" for the dead black person.

Carry on.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'll get these out of the way.

"If the races were reversed Akron would be burned down because a bunch of white individuals killed a black person"

While that may be true, you should also remember

"play stupid games win stupid prizes" for the dead black person.

Carry on.

I'm trying to keep race out of the conversation so some people actually have to think about their position.

 

[Gospel]

The point of the OP was that no one did anything that should have resulted in death... yet someone died anyway. This is the trouble with chaos. As Jesus and Gandhi both said "Shit happens."

But when there is no intent for such an ultimate outcome, and none of the actions that led up to it should have led to the outcome of death, how do you manage it? Is sending a teen to prison for punching someone that was with a group that was antagonizing them remotely justice, even if someone did die?

From what I'm seeing the charges and bail have been lowered. Likely a result of more info coming in. It's still involuntary manslaughter IMO.

 

[Gospel]

I'll get these out of the way.

"If the races were reversed Akron would be burned down because a bunch of white individuals killed a black person"

While that may be true, you should also remember

"play stupid games win stupid prizes" for the dead black person.

Carry on.

I'm trying to keep race out of the conversation so some people actually have to think about their position.

Good luck with that.

 

[TV and credit cards]

More detailed article:

Self-defense or manslaughter? Brothers to go on trial for Ethan Liming's death

DeShawn and Tyler Stafford will go on trial for Ethan Liming's death after a fight in the I Promise School parking lot. The brothers claim self-defense.

news.yahoo.com

I was looking at this as an unfortunate accident resulting from the actions of stupid teen boys until I read this:

DeShawn and Tyler continued to hit and kick Liming while he was on the ground.

As Liming’s friends tried to get him into his car to take him to the hospital, Jones began punching them and took their cellphones, throwing them to the ground and breaking them.

Tyler and DeShawn argued with Liming’s friends, who ran from the scene. Tyler got into Liming’s car and drove it to the west end of the parking lot. He parked the car, took a cellphone from it and threw it to the ground, breaking it.

Tyler, DeShawn and Jones left, leaving Liming lying on the pavement. None of them called 911; one of Liming’s friends alerted police.

 

[Gospel]

The point of the OP was that no one did anything that should have resulted in death... yet someone died anyway. This is the trouble with chaos. As Jesus and Gandhi both said "Shit happens."

But when there is no intent for such an ultimate outcome, and none of the actions that led up to it should have led to the outcome of death, how do you manage it? Is sending a teen to prison for punching someone that was with a group that was antagonizing them remotely justice, even if someone did die?

It depends on the legitimacy of the actions that precipitated loss of life. For example the potential for excessive force isn't exclusive to law enforcement - even regular citizens can be perpetrators. In the absence of detailed information, it is challenging to engage in a deeper discourse beyond speculating involuntary manslaughter. It is an undeniable fact that a life has been lost, affecting a family deeply, and underscored by existing laws that prohibit acts of assault, regardless if by water or fists.

It's genuinely challenging for me to make a definitive judgement here, as it appears that all parties involved have suffered to some degree. In an ideal world, I'd argue that the tragic loss of Ethan serves as a profound lesson for all involved, leaving them to grapple with the lasting consequences of their actions.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The point of the OP was that no one did anything that should have resulted in death... yet someone died anyway. This is the trouble with chaos. As Jesus and Gandhi both said "Shit happens."

But when there is no intent for such an ultimate outcome, and none of the actions that led up to it should have led to the outcome of death, how do you manage it? Is sending a teen to prison for punching someone that was with a group that was antagonizing them remotely justice, even if someone did die?

It depends on the legitimacy of the actions that precipitated loss of life. For example the potential for excessive force isn't exclusive to law enforcement - even regular citizens can be perpetrators. In the absence of detailed information, it is challenging to engage in a deeper discourse beyond speculating involuntary manslaughter. It is an undeniable fact that a life has been lost, affecting a family deeply, and underscored by existing laws that prohibit acts of assault, regardless if by water or fists.

It's genuinely challenging for me to make a definitive judgement here, as it appears that all parties involved have suffered to some degree. In an ideal world, I'd argue that the tragic loss of Ethan serves as a profound lesson for all involved, leaving them to grapple with the lasting consequences of their actions.

I don't think the actions are in question. The teen fell wrong and landed wrong, and he died.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The point of the OP was that no one did anything that should have resulted in death... yet someone died anyway. This is the trouble with chaos. As Jesus and Gandhi both said "Shit happens."

But when there is no intent for such an ultimate outcome, and none of the actions that led up to it should have led to the outcome of death, how do you manage it? Is sending a teen to prison for punching someone that was with a group that was antagonizing them remotely justice, even if someone did die?

From what I'm seeing the charges and bail have been lowered. Likely a result of more info coming in. It's still involuntary manslaughter IMO.

As a result of the grand jury.

 

[Derec]

I'll get these out of the way.
"If the races were reversed Akron would be burned down because a bunch of white individuals killed a black person"

That is very much the case. We see that all the time, that when blacks kill or injure whites, the narrative is very different than vice versa. Media especially loves to vilify whites who attack blacks, but they treat blacks who attack whites and are prosecuted as "victims". See how Jena 6 have been treated. A lot of media outrage over the prosecution and the attackers got slaps on the wrists and scholarships out of the deal. I don't expect this case will be any different. Be black, attack white teens, and you can profit in today's dysfunctional racial climate.

"play stupid games win stupid prizes" for the dead black person.

Except the dead teen (or as Toni would have said if he had been black, a "child") was white. Had he been black, and the guy who killed him white, CNN would not be shutting up about it.
That said, what Liming did was very stupid. I am just commenting about how media and potential rioters would have reacted no QT gas stations would be safe in the 10 mile radius, that's for damn sure! And a white pusher would have likely faced more severe prosecution. Just look at the aggressive prosecution Daniel Penny faces for accidentally killing Jordan Neely.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Akron had that shooting and zero gas stations and stores were torched. There were a few broken windows. Akron did a decent job of allowing protest while sucking the Oxygen from it

 

[Gospel]

I'll get these out of the way.
"If the races were reversed Akron would be burned down because a bunch of white individuals killed a black person"

That is very much the case. We see that all the time, that when blacks kill or injure whites, the narrative is very different than vice versa. Media especially loves to vilify whites who attack blacks, but they treat blacks who attack whites and are prosecuted as "victims". See how Jena 6 have been treated. A lot of media outrage over the prosecution and the attackers got slaps on the wrists and scholarships out of the deal. I don't expect this case will be any different. Be black, attack white teens, and you can profit in today's dysfunctional racial climate.

"play stupid games win stupid prizes" for the dead black person.

Except the dead teen (or as Toni would have said if he had been black, a "child") was white. Had he been black, and the guy who killed him white, CNN would not be shutting up about it.
That said, what Liming did was very stupid. I am just commenting about how media and potential rioters would have reacted no QT gas stations would be safe in the 10 mile radius, that's for damn sure! And a white pusher would have likely faced more severe prosecution. Just look at the aggressive prosecution Daniel Penny faces for accidentally killing Jordan Neely.

Whoosh.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Rhea]

More detailed article:

Self-defense or manslaughter? Brothers to go on trial for Ethan Liming's death

DeShawn and Tyler Stafford will go on trial for Ethan Liming's death after a fight in the I Promise School parking lot. The brothers claim self-defense.

news.yahoo.com

I was looking at this as an unfortunate accident resulting from the actions of stupid teen boys until I read this:

DeShawn and Tyler continued to hit and kick Liming while he was on the ground.

As Liming’s friends tried to get him into his car to take him to the hospital, Jones began punching them and took their cellphones, throwing them to the ground and breaking them.

Tyler and DeShawn argued with Liming’s friends, who ran from the scene. Tyler got into Liming’s car and drove it to the west end of the parking lot. He parked the car, took a cellphone from it and threw it to the ground, breaking it.

Tyler, DeShawn and Jones left, leaving Liming lying on the pavement. None of them called 911; one of Liming’s friends alerted police.

Wow. That will change the mood of the procedings.

 

[TV and credit cards]

More detailed article:

Self-defense or manslaughter? Brothers to go on trial for Ethan Liming's death

DeShawn and Tyler Stafford will go on trial for Ethan Liming's death after a fight in the I Promise School parking lot. The brothers claim self-defense.

news.yahoo.com

I was looking at this as an unfortunate accident resulting from the actions of stupid teen boys until I read this:

DeShawn and Tyler continued to hit and kick Liming while he was on the ground.

As Liming’s friends tried to get him into his car to take him to the hospital, Jones began punching them and took their cellphones, throwing them to the ground and breaking them.

Tyler and DeShawn argued with Liming’s friends, who ran from the scene. Tyler got into Liming’s car and drove it to the west end of the parking lot. He parked the car, took a cellphone from it and threw it to the ground, breaking it.

Tyler, DeShawn and Jones left, leaving Liming lying on the pavement. None of them called 911; one of Liming’s friends alerted police.

Wow. That will change the mood of the procedings.

It would for me.
Imagine, you punch a person in the face so hard their head hits the pavement. You see that. You probably hear it too. What does that do to you? Ever seen/heard a human skull bounce off of concrete? What effect might it have on you? Realizing what you have done do you help the person? Panic and run? Continue to beat on the person?
This is the type of person who is unfit to live in society.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Or they are angry teens that know nothing about brain trauma

 

[Gospel]

I don't think the actions are in question. The teen fell wrong and landed wrong, and he died.

It seems plausible that everyone involved was aware of the potential for injury in this situation. While it's likely that none of them, Ethan included, anticipated a fatal outcome, Ethan's death does not absolve any party of accountability for any ensuing injuries, including those with tragic results. After all, the inherent intent of engaging in a physical altercation is to subdue or overpower the other individual. In this situation, the core issue seems to revolve around determining whether the conflict was rooted in self-defense without the employment of excessive force, coupled with the reactions of all involved once Ethan was incapacitated. I came across this Fox News report where they mention a 911 call, with individuals reportedly expressing regret in the background. But TV's Yahoo link says there was no 911 call. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ethan Liming 911 call prompts more questions about 17-year-old's beating death

A 911 call made during the fatal beating death of 17-year-old Ethan Liming at a school parking lot in Akron, Ohio, prompts more questions about the boy's death.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Jarhyn]

I mean it's textbook involuntary manslaughter. What more is there to say? It's about as open and shut as it gets. They should be given every opportunity to come to understand the tragedy of what happened, and to understand how it can be avoided in the future, and if they don't again after that then repeat the process in a much more serious way.

There might be extenuating circumstances such as the provocation of the water guns absent a common understanding between the groups to engage in harmless shenanigans from time to time. Whether these rise to extenuation is doubtful; fisticuffs for wetness is not acceptable. We can on society expect more creative and nonviolent throwdowns.

This does not change the charge though, merely the punishment. This child needs to be seriously taught that fighting is not ever an appropriate response and drilled on more positive ways to react. All of them do.