California Bullet Train Breaks Ground

[Jimmy Higgins]

Thanks for the trainride, Medicine Man. We ought to understand by now the earlier you get started on new technologies, the sooner you have a chance of perfecting it. It is rather fantastic the train moving at over 400kph. I believe that long distance travel by means of these things could seriously reduce pollution in time. A billion and a half people seem to have a greater diversity pool from which to draw about everything they might need to eventually be the top world power. Their trains sure are awesome.

Mostly empty too.

Zing! That post is the death nail to HSR in America I guess.

 

[lpetrich]

I've lost my copy of the revenue figures for the interstate highways. Can anyone remember how much profit they made last year?

Not just that, the non-Interstate Federal highways, the state highways, and local roads. All socialist roads. The Interstates are not only socialist roads, they are national socialist roads, something very evident from where President Eisenhower got the idea from: the very nice roads built by a nation that he helped conquer in WWII.

Over the 20th cy., capitalist roads have not been very common in the US. I once researched that subject and the biggest relatively recent example that I found was the Vanderbilt corporate empire's Long Island Motor Parkway in the early 20th cy. But it lost money, and parts of it survive as socialist roads.

Aviation? The Federal Aviation Administration gets a sizable chunk of its money from the general fund. So it's socialist aviation also.

 

[Jarhyn]

Mostly empty too.

Zing! That post is the death nail to HSR in America I guess.

Yeah. Highways and bridges are mostly empty most of the day. I know a few smaller
Roads that maybe see a car once a day. I know a few bridges that see a car once a week. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Mostly empty too.

Zing! That post is the death nail to HSR in America I guess.

http://time.com/3665232/delta-flight-one-passenger-empty/

Many of my friends have been on commercial flights with fewer than 10 passengers.

 

[Jarhyn]

Zing! That post is the death nail to HSR in America I guess.

http://time.com/3665232/delta-flight-one-passenger-empty/

Many of my friends have been on commercial flights with fewer than 10 passengers.

And sometimes on my commute to work I am the only person on the bus from burnsville to minneapolis.

 

[TSwizzle]

They haven't even agreed on where to lay the tracks.

Rep. Adam Schiff came out in opposition on Thursday to a proposed alignment of the state’s high-speed rail project that would require a tunnel beneath the Angeles National Forest – damaging chances the plan will be carried out.

In a letter sent this month, Schiff, D-Burbank, and Rep. Judy Chu, D-El Monte, told California High Speed Rail Authority Dan Richard to scrap any consideration of a route under the San Gabriel Mountains between Palmdale and the San Fernando Valley because it would be harmful to the environment.

Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael Antonovich suggested to the authority last summer that it look at all conceivable routes including an alignment that would go through the mountains and national forest.

Such an alignment, he said, could decrease travel times and mute opposition that may arise in the unincorporated neighborhoods where the original alignment would pass as trains traveled between stations in Palmdale and Burbank largely following Highway 14 and the 5 Freeway.

“Any benefits gained by going through the forest do not outweigh the far greater costs to the project and the damage that might be done to our environment,” Schiff and Chu said in the letter.

SFV News

This will all end in tears and a millstone around the people of CA's neck.

 

[Medicine Man]

Having engaged this particular enthusiasm on many prior occasions, I am do not under the silly delusion that reason and conversion through evidence is possible. Like any popular affection for a project, it is mostly prompted by feelings. Hence, perhaps Calif. HSR train enthusiasts would be kind enough to explain what, on an emotional level, drives their eagerness? What inspires? Aside from "the numbers", why are they so enamored with the idea?

Precedence????



We can't very-well go BIG (i.e. coast-to-cost), until it's been proven....to "conservatives"....that the technology is feasible/practical.

Once the shorter-lines prove (to the general-public) that they will benefit from such a transportation-option, it'd make it much-more possible to propose a coast-to-coast high-speed system....with North/South spurs, along the way. This way, bu$ine$$men....who are the BULK of flight-patronage....will have to find someone-else to subsidize their preference.​

 

[Medicine Man]

They haven't even agreed on where to lay the tracks.

Rep. Adam Schiff came out in opposition on Thursday to a proposed alignment of the state’s high-speed rail project that would require a tunnel beneath the Angeles National Forest – damaging chances the plan will be carried out.

In a letter sent this month, Schiff, D-Burbank, and Rep. Judy Chu, D-El Monte, told California High Speed Rail Authority Dan Richard to scrap any consideration of a route under the San Gabriel Mountains between Palmdale and the San Fernando Valley because it would be harmful to the environment.

Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael Antonovich suggested to the authority last summer that it look at all conceivable routes including an alignment that would go through the mountains and national forest.

Such an alignment, he said, could decrease travel times and mute opposition that may arise in the unincorporated neighborhoods where the original alignment would pass as trains traveled between stations in Palmdale and Burbank largely following Highway 14 and the 5 Freeway.

“Any benefits gained by going through the forest do not outweigh the far greater costs to the project and the damage that might be done to our environment,” Schiff and Chu said in the letter.

SFV News

This will all end in tears and a millstone around the people of CA's neck.​

....Or, touri$t$ will be lined-UP, to TRY-IT-OUT!!!!!!!

. . ​

 

[Medicine Man]

Thanks for the trainride, Medicine Man. We ought to understand by now the earlier you get started on new technologies, the sooner you have a chance of perfecting it.

...Especially when intere$t-rate$ (on investment-buck$) are so low!!!!!!​

 

[Medicine Man]

Thanks for the trainride, Medicine Man. We ought to understand by now the earlier you get started on new technologies, the sooner you have a chance of perfecting it. It is rather fantastic the train moving at over 400kph. I believe that long distance travel by means of these things could seriously reduce pollution in time. A billion and a half people seem to have a greater diversity pool from which to draw about everything they might need to eventually be the top world power. Their trains sure are awesome.

Mostly empty too.​

....And, you (last) rode, in their system, when??????​

 

[Medicine Man]

Mostly empty too.​

Zing! That post is the death nail to HSR in America I guess.​

That'd be death-knell....but, to be accurate....would have to be expressed by someone who actually knew....and, I'm guessing, TSwizzle

hasn't a clue.​

 

[lpetrich]

We can't very-well go BIG (i.e. coast-to-cost), until it's been proven....to "conservatives"....that the technology is feasible/practical.

Once the shorter-lines prove (to the general-public) that they will benefit from such a transportation-option, it'd make it much-more possible to propose a coast-to-coast high-speed system....with North/South spurs, along the way. This way, bu$ine$$men....who are the BULK of flight-patronage....will have to find someone-else to subsidize their preference.

(Garish formatting removed)

I'll now consider the prospects of turning the Great Flyover into the Great Zip-Through.

A highway route between NYC and LA is about 2275 mi / 4467 km (Google Maps). The cities' great-circle distance is about 2400 mi / 3900 km. A plausible value for a nonstop high-speed train is a speed of 300 km/h / 186 mph, giving 13 hours. With stops at sizable cities along the way, its average speed would go down to something like 240 km/h / 150 mph, giving 16 hours. So there's no way that a high-speed train can win against an airliner for this trip.

Let's consider a plausible route. I've used metropolitan areas for all city populations. Distances are great circle mi / km, highway mi / km.

New York City (20.0m) - 81/130/94/152 - Philadelphia (6.0m) - 258/415/305/491 - Pittsburgh (2.4m) - 114/184/133/214 - Cleveland (2.1m) - 307/495/345/555 - Chicago (9.5m) - 262/422/297/478 - St. Louis (2.8m) - 238/382/248/399 - Kansas City (2.4m) - 557/896/602/969 - Denver (2.7m) - 371/597/519/835 - Salt Lake City (1.1m) - 362/582/421/678 - Las Vegas (2.0m) - 228/367/271/436 - Los Angeles (13.1m)

Total: 2778 mi / 4470 km / 3235 mi / 5207 km

So between Kansas City and Las Vegas, the population per route length goes way down.

 

[Medicine Man]

We can't very-well go BIG (i.e. coast-to-cost), until it's been proven....to "conservatives"....that the technology is feasible/practical.

Once the shorter-lines prove (to the general-public) that they will benefit from such a transportation-option, it'd make it much-more possible to propose a coast-to-coast high-speed system....with North/South spurs, along the way. This way, bu$ine$$men....who are the BULK of flight-patronage....will have to find someone-else to subsidize their preference.

(Garish formatting removed)

I'll now consider the prospects of turning the Great Flyover into the Great Zip-Through.

A highway route between NYC and LA is about 2275 mi / 4467 km (Google Maps). The cities' great-circle distance is about 2400 mi / 3900 km. A plausible value for a nonstop high-speed train is a speed of 300 km/h / 186 mph, giving 13 hours. With stops at sizable cities along the way, its average speed would go down to something like 240 km/h / 150 mph, giving 16 hours. So there's no way that a high-speed train can win against an airliner for this trip.

Who's talking about a race??

If people are going on vacation-trips....I'm pretty-certain they'd much-rather take a pleasurable-trip....with actual viewing-opportunities....rather-than being crammed into a jet....with a bunch o' spastic business-people.

*

​

 

[maxparrish]

Better yet, who is talking about sanity?

California, in spite of public opposition, massive cost overuns, lawsuits, and gross performance failures is starting on a project that will cost 68 billion dollars and take 17 years to complete (which is a best case "wing and a prayer" hope). They will be spending 4 million a day to build a train that does not meet the promised 2 hr. 50 min ride to LA, but takes about 4 to 4.5 hours (missing the target by one third or more).

The project, once promised to be 33 billion dollars has more than doubled in price, while performance levels have dramatically dropped. Panels no longer believe the train will save significant amounts of carbon reductions, and HSR itself says ridership projections have fallen by two-thirds (from 90 million to 30 million a year) - in contrast to other ridership projections, using realistic factors, estimate it will be closer to 5-7 million a year (a more than 90 percent drop in projected ridership).

Although the project will be looting the new cap and trade taxes imposed on the California economy, it is still 30 billion short. But hey, no matter, the first leg will be Merced to Bakersfield (aka the train to nowhere).

A better appreciation of the size of the travesty of this boondoggle is a comparison to the nations other largest infrastructure projects:

Seattle Tunnel: 3 billion
Dulles Rail Line: 6 billion
O'Hare Expansion: 9 billion
Super Duper Train: 68 billion

The next time California voters scream about the high cost of tuition for college education, the increasing low ranking in State spending for schools, low teacher salaries, or the overcrowding and the poor conditions at State prisons they can proudly wave a Bullet Train button and get a fun ride from Merced to Bakersfield, the "hot spots" of California tourism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you watch Asian news services, it is apparent that their cultures are advancing very much faster than ours here in America. Even South American countries are contracting with Japan and China for bullet trains. It looks a lot like it is a matter of opportunity costs for war machines and the auto industry are proving to be run down old fashioned public transportation systems like AMTRACK, overloaded freeway systems, insufficient educational facilities that deny education to millions simply by their sparsity, and politicians that don't give a damn. You cannot continue to put all our eggs in the petroleum basket and prosper in the coming age. It is really about that simple.

Higher population densities make bullet trains more attractive there.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I wish they would have put money into a feasibility study for the Hyperloop, which would have followed the existing highways, thus did not require obtaining additional rights of way, not to mention the LA-SF time was one hour as opposed to the three hours (which is probably still too optimistic), they are talking about now.

The Hyperloop is a vactrain, a sort of system proposed every now and the for the last half century at least. It has daunting technical challenges, and it would take a LOT of R&D to get it working safely. For instance, its entire tube would have to be evacuated, and stay evacuated reliably. A leak anywhere would shut down the whole line. Also, crossovers would be awkward.

Let's see what it has to do.
SF - LA HSR distance: 463 mi / 746 km (detours into the Central Valley and Antelope Valley)
SF - LA highway distance: 386 mi / 622 km
SF - LA great-circle distance: 349 mi / 561 km

Will use 400 mph / 640 km/h / 180 m/s

Acceleration distance = (speed)² / (2* (acceleration))

For an acceleration of 0.1 g (1 m/s²), this is 16 km or 10 mi.

The acceleration time penalty is equal to the time to travel the acceleration distance at full speed, so it's not very great here.

Now for following highways. They usually have lots of curves in them, and I will use design standard to estimate the centrifugal acceleration for going around them. I'll use NJDOT Roadway Design Manual -- that's the New Jersey highway department. "The suggested minimum radius for a freeway is 3000 feet in rural areas and 1600 feet in urban areas." Also, "Every effort should be made to exceed the minimum values. Minimum radii should be used only when the cost or other adverse effects of realizing a higher standard are inconsistent with the benefits."

That's about 1 km for full cruising speed.

Centrifugal acceleration = (speed)² / (radius of curvature)

For a 1-km curve, the sideways acceleration is
Car (60 mph / 100 km/h / 28 m/s): 0.78 m/s²
High-speed train (186 mph / 300 km/h / 6.9 m/s): 6.9 m/s²
Hyperloop (400 mph / 640 km/h / 180 m/s): 32 m/s²

Minimum radius of curvature, to be consistent with car standards:
High-speed train: 9 km
Hyperloop: 41 km


So the Hyperloop line won't be able to follow highways.


It will likely be built on a viaduct or extended bridge, two tubes about 16 ft / 5 m across. Expect the NIMBY's to howl with outrage at the prospect of seeing that. The California HSR system has already gotten a lot of NIMBY objections, like between San Francisco and San Jose, and this system would be even worse.

But we don't need to limit ourselves to .1g.

A road has to deal with vehicles going at a range of velocities and thus must use a bank angle acceptable to all of them. The Hyperloop certainly doesn't have to be engineered for this, a bank angle suited to the actual speed should be used consistent with not having a catastrophe if the train should have to stop. (And that can be done by means of some extra wheels that will take up the load if the train should tip--so long as they'll last long enough to stop the train you're ok, they don't need to be suitable for travel.)

Thus your g-limit is based on the load straight down, not a load to the side. While I do agree 32 m/s is too high you don't need anything like 41km, either. I think passengers would accept a 10km turn radius. (You add 1g on such a turn.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here is a tiny bit of bullet-train video.

From outside:
▶ Eurostar Run By's in Kent - YouTube
▶ Primeras circulaciones directas de alta velocidad entre España y Francia - YouTube -- First direct high-speed traffic between Spain and France (Google Translate)
From inside:
▶ TGV running parallel with highway - YouTube
Kaelyn Whaley on ICE High Speed Bullet Train Passing Cars at 180 mph, 300 km/h, 8/2012 Germany - YouTube

Don't forget about China!!!

​

Yeah, they have that train. It goes like a bat out of hell--but doesn't get all that much ridership.

It goes from downtown to the airport--yet isn't set up to handle the amount of baggage one typically brings on a long trip. A businessman flying in for a few days might use it, it's not exactly practical for the tourist. It's also less convenient and considerably more expensive than the bus.

I've been in Shanghai many times. I've taken numerous buses and some subway trains there. I've never taken the Maglev.

 

[maxparrish]

If you watch Asian news services, it is apparent that their cultures are advancing very much faster than ours here in America. Even South American countries are contracting with Japan and China for bullet trains.

AKA, the lemming argument. "Hurry, take the plunge, everyone else is doing it!"

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Although the project will be looting the new cap and trade taxes imposed on the California economy, it is still 30 billion short. But hey, no matter, the first leg will be Merced to Bakersfield (aka the train to nowhere).

I think Max got burned by that Monorail they built in Springfield.

A better appreciation of the size of the travesty of this boondoggle is a comparison to the nations other largest infrastructure projects:

Seattle Tunnel: 3 billion
Dulles Rail Line: 6 billion
O'Hare Expansion: 9 billion
Super Duper Train: 68 billion

Funny you mention Seattle. Whoops! Another boondoggle. Lets just give up everything now.

The next time California voters scream about the high cost of tuition for college education, the increasing low ranking in State spending for schools, low teacher salaries, or the overcrowding and the poor conditions at State prisons they can proudly wave a Bullet Train button and get a fun ride from Merced to Bakersfield, the "hot spots" of California tourism.

And teen pregnancy rate. Don't forget about the teen pregnancy rate!

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I am glad ol' Max took a punch at teachers, the most evil profession in the world.