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I'm afraid the fundy christians and the fundy muslims are gonna get us all killed.

Since when does muslims fighting other muslims count as Western violence? You might as well say that WW2 is an example of muslim violence against the West, because some muslims were supporting Hitler.

The West overturns the democratic government of Iran and this results in religious fundamentalists taking power.
It's unintentional blowback, and hardly qualifies as "massive violence" against muslims. The violence perptrated since by muslims is way out of proportion to the original fuckup.

The West supports Saddam Hussein's rise to power then supports him in his invasion of Iran and then supports both the Iranians and the Iraqis in that devastating war.

How is all this violence of Muslims against Muslims not because of Western interference?
The Iran-Iraq war would have happened with or without Western interference.

And the overthrow of Mossadegh happened over sixty years ago. That's hardly an excuse for any of the shit that the current Iranian regime is doing.

The only reason we have the current regime and not a democratic secular Iran is because of Western interference.

The US invades Iraq and destroys the nation. Suddenly things that hadn't occurred in Iraq in centuries, like suicide bombings, begin again.

How is this not the fault of Western interference?

How is ISIS not the fault of Western interference?
If anything, those are examples of non-interference. The USA withdrawal from Iraq and refusal to arm the rebels in Syria is what made ISIS what it is today. As for invasion of Iraq in the first place, the main issue is refusal to depose Saddam after the first Gulf War and letting the situation linger.
 
The West overturns the democratic government of Iran and this results in religious fundamentalists taking power.
It's unintentional blowback, and hardly qualifies as "massive violence" against muslims. The violence perptrated since by muslims is way out of proportion to the original fuckup.

What?

Overturning an elected government and installing a brutal dictator isn't a violent act?

In what world?

The Iran-Iraq war would have happened with or without Western interference.

The facts are without Western support and Western weapons there could never have been an Iraqi invasion of Iran that resulted in war.

And without Western interference Hussein never would have taken control of Iraq. He was exactly what the West always installs or helps install. A brutal dictator that allows foreign corporations to exploit resources and the population.

If anything, those are examples of non-interference. The USA withdrawal from Iraq and refusal to arm the rebels in Syria is what made ISIS what it is today. As for invasion of Iraq in the first place, the main issue is refusal to depose Saddam after the first Gulf War and letting the situation linger.

The nation was invaded and destroyed based on lies.

And from the ruins ISIS arises.

There couldn't be a better example of violent interference causing further violence.
 
It's unintentional blowback, and hardly qualifies as "massive violence" against muslims. The violence perptrated since by muslims is way out of proportion to the original fuckup.

What?

Overturning an elected government and installing a brutal dictator isn't a violent act?

In what world?
It is not a massively violent act, and certainly in no proportion to the consequences considering that it happened over six decades ago. Everyone directly hurt during the coup is long dead. Just eight years prior, US dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, killing hundreds of thousands. That would be an example of a "massive violence" against Japa, but even that wouldn't justify Japanese terrorism today.

The Iran-Iraq war would have happened with or without Western interference.

The facts are without Western support and Western weapons there could never have been an Iraqi invasion of Iran that resulted in war.

And without Western interference Hussein never would have taken control of Iraq. He was exactly what the West always installs or helps install. A brutal dictator that allows foreign corporations to exploit resources and the population.
Maybe. I have to admit I'm not too well versed on that part of Middle East history. But look at the neighbouring Syria which I think was aligned with Soviets... did it fare much better?

If anything, those are examples of non-interference. The USA withdrawal from Iraq and refusal to arm the rebels in Syria is what made ISIS what it is today. As for invasion of Iraq in the first place, the main issue is refusal to depose Saddam after the first Gulf War and letting the situation linger.

The nation was invaded and destroyed based on lies.

And from the ruins ISIS arises.

There couldn't be a better example of violent interference causing further violence.
The nation was destroyed by the Islamists. Only thing you can blame US is to handle it poorly, for example by firing all the Baath loyalists who promptly started to work for the insurgents.
 
What?

Overturning an elected government and installing a brutal dictator isn't a violent act?

In what world?
It is not a massively violent act, and certainly in no proportion to the consequences considering that it happened over six decades ago. Everyone directly hurt during the coup is long dead. Just eight years prior, US dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, killing hundreds of thousands. That would be an example of a "massive violence" against Japa, but even that wouldn't justify Japanese terrorism today.

The violence was the violence from the installed dictator against Iranians. Not the violence in installing him.

And it led to fundamentalists taking power and the violence from them.

Again, in what world is installing a brutal dictator not a massive act of violence against the people they dictate over who have lost any kind of democratic control of their nation?

Maybe. I have to admit I'm not too well versed on that part of Middle East history. But look at the neighbouring Syria which I think was aligned with Soviets... did it fare much better?

Soviet interference IS Western interference, just another form.

The nation was invaded and destroyed based on lies.

And from the ruins ISIS arises.

There couldn't be a better example of violent interference causing further violence.

The nation was destroyed by the Islamists. Only thing you can blame US is to handle it poorly, for example by firing all the Baath loyalists who promptly started to work for the insurgents.

There was no so-called "Islamist" violence in Iraq until the US invaded and destroyed the nation, destroyed infrastructure, like the police.

There hadn't been a suicide bombing in Iraq for centuries until the US came in and blew the place apart.

And the desire to invade Iraq was something Rumsfeld and Cheney and the neo-Cons had been advocating for a decade before 911. It had nothing to do with terrorism and everything to do with US hegemony.
 
Since when does muslims fighting other muslims count as Western violence? You might as well say that WW2 is an example of muslim violence against the West, because some muslims were supporting Hitler.

And the overthrow of Mossadegh happened over sixty years ago. That's hardly an excuse for any of the shit that the current Iranian regime is doing.

In his world the west is guilty of everything. If it looks like someone else is guilty you have to look deeper to find the true cause.
 
Since when does muslims fighting other muslims count as Western violence? You might as well say that WW2 is an example of muslim violence against the West, because some muslims were supporting Hitler.

And the overthrow of Mossadegh happened over sixty years ago. That's hardly an excuse for any of the shit that the current Iranian regime is doing.

In his world the west is guilty of everything. If it looks like someone else is guilty you have to look deeper to find the true cause.

In your world the West is guilty of nothing, not even it's massive crimes.

Like the invasion of Iraq that directly led to groups like ISIS.
 
In his world the west is guilty of everything. If it looks like someone else is guilty you have to look deeper to find the true cause.

In your world the West is guilty of nothing, not even it's massive crimes.

Like the invasion of Iraq that directly led to groups like ISIS.

ISIS came from Syria, not Iraq. And ISIS came from the Islamists that fund it.
 
In your world the West is guilty of nothing, not even it's massive crimes.

Like the invasion of Iraq that directly led to groups like ISIS.

ISIS came from Syria, not Iraq. And ISIS came from the Islamists that fund it.

The military leadership of ISIS is made up of former Iraqi military leaders.

They wouldn't be working with ISIS if the US had not launched it's terrorist attack of Iraq, destroyed the nation and disbanded the military.
 
ISIS came from Syria, not Iraq. And ISIS came from the Islamists that fund it.

The military leadership of ISIS is made up of former Iraqi military leaders.

They wouldn't be working with ISIS if the US had not launched it's terrorist attack of Iraq, destroyed the nation and disbanded the military.

ISIS is the latest incarnation of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, which was formed in the late 90's by return mujaheddin fighters from Afghanistan. Their initial goal was the overthrown of the Jordanian monarchy. Not everything that happens in the middle-east is because of the West. The people there are perfectly capable of forming their own motivations, and exercising their own independent agency, without western influence or reaction. The desire among Islamists to re-establish the caliphate goes back to the collapse of the caliphate; long pre-dating any supposed fault of the West.
 
The military leadership of ISIS is made up of former Iraqi military leaders.

They wouldn't be working with ISIS if the US had not launched it's terrorist attack of Iraq, destroyed the nation and disbanded the military.

ISIS is the latest incarnation of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, which was formed in the late 90's by return mujaheddin fighters from Afghanistan. Their initial goal was the overthrown of the Jordanian monarchy. Not everything that happens in the middle-east is because of the West. The people there are perfectly capable of forming their own motivations, and exercising their own independent agency, without western influence or reaction. The desire among Islamists to re-establish the caliphate goes back to the collapse of the caliphate; long pre-dating any supposed fault of the West.

Again, the military leadership of ISIS is made up of former Iraqi military leaders.

Take them away and nobody in the US ever hears about ISIS. It's just another group of religious nuts not capable of doing much harm.
 
ISIS is the latest incarnation of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, which was formed in the late 90's by return mujaheddin fighters from Afghanistan. Their initial goal was the overthrown of the Jordanian monarchy. Not everything that happens in the middle-east is because of the West. The people there are perfectly capable of forming their own motivations, and exercising their own independent agency, without western influence or reaction. The desire among Islamists to re-establish the caliphate goes back to the collapse of the caliphate; long pre-dating any supposed fault of the West.

Again, the military leadership of ISIS is made up of former Iraqi military leaders.

Take them away and nobody in the US ever hears about ISIS. It's just another group of religious nuts not capable of doing much harm.

Well the causes of ISIS are myriad -that a meteor did not strike the earth the day before al-Zarqawi was born is cause. But the plan of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad had been the formation of an Islamic State even before 9/11. The proximate cause of ISIS's dominance was al-Maliki's mistreatment of the Iraqi Sunnis after the US withdraw. Think of the first time you heard of ISIS, it was probably late December 2013, when they took over much of Anbar province without much of a fight. The majority Sunnis welcomed them as better than the Shiite oppressors in Baghdad. Before that they were just part of the Syrian rebel alphabet soup. Yet, the US and the West in general is given far too much credit in these things. Don't view this conflict as a Westerner. View as they view it, a re-hashing of religious wars fought hundreds of years ago.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iouhwXTQJIU[/YOUTUBE]
 
It's the mainstream muslim society that is a fertile breeding ground for the extremists.

You asserting something doesn't make it true. If this were true, you'd have come up with something by now showing that the mainstream Muslims actually support this sort of behavior. But you can't. The rest of this is just smokescreening to avoid acknowledging it.

The imam that got the Kouachi brothers on the path of radicalization was, whiel being shunned from some mainstream imams, was still just able to basically allowed to operate unchallenged.

France has this pesky thing called "freedom of speech." So everyone is "allowed to operate" until they break the law. You haven't shown any evidence that the rest of the community was aware of what was going on with these two; they're likely aware of extremist elements existing, but their simple existence does not reflect on them all, nor assign them these special responsibilities you want to heap on them.

Otherwise, to return to my previous example, poor blacks and latinos are responsible for "allowing" criminal elements in their neighborhoods to operate.

Ask yourself, why don't the catholic extremists who had at least as much cause to be offended by Charlie Hebdo as muslims, never got anywhere near as far as the muslim extremists? It's because the path to radicalization within the Catholic community is much harder than it is in the muslim community: it's much harder to pretend you are a catholic preacher because the organization of the church is more institional, and it's much harder ot try to convince possible recruits to overlook the passages about non-violence. I think that even the Kouachi brothers were initially against violence, but their preacher managed to convince them why it's justified, just by arguing from Koran... that shows that the safeguards against violence are paper thin in Islam.

Ask yourself: why do you have such a difficult time actually staying on topic, rather than scribbling out these rambling paragraphs of unsubstantiated rubbish?

Islam does have quite a singular view on a lot of things.

No, it doesn't, except in the minds of propagandists and ideologues.

Being offended by cartoons of Mohammed is one. It's not that the muslims themselves would probably be offended, but it's that their religion tells them to be: in order to be good muslims, they have to hate the cartoons. It's brainwashing, but it works. And once you instill that hatred into a billion people, it's hardly surprising that some of them will resort to violence, even though the majority might say that they are against it... all you need to trigger it is for some Imam to say the opposite, because the entire community is conditioned to believe whatever nonsense the Imams say the Koran says.

You are making shit up as you go.

For one, the Qur'an says nothing about depictions of Muhammad, so you clearly don't know what you're talking about. But even if it did, that does not make it the "singular view" of Islam. The Bible says gays and apostates should be executed; is that the "singular view" of Christianity? No?

You've shown nothing to suggest that a billion Muslims "hate" anything or anyone. And certainly nothing to support the idea that those who say they are against the violence are liars. You are talking out of your ass.

Your comprehension of how religions, and ideologies in general work, is what is baffling.

Says the guy who pulls generalization after generalization out of his ass about how 1.5 billion people think, without a shred of evidence to back them up.

I've given plenty of examples of how the same mechanism works in other societies and belief systems.

I saw. They were all utter shit that did nothing to support your argument.

Islam is a global ideology. The muslims going on killing spree in Indonesia or Niger of course doesn't mean that the French muslims would do the same, but it does show that it's not Islam that's stopping them.

Nonsensical doublespeak. That Islam is interpreted and applied in vastly different ways across the globe proves definitively that it is not a singular ideology.

I've done it many times. Most recently in the beginning of this post, but let's try it again: the muslim brainwashing makes people susceptible to being manipulated by extremists. Even moderate muslims support the same brainwashing, even though they might superficially denounce outright murder, and that's the issue here... not that the moderate uslims themselves would go on killing sprees or praise the killers when such incidents occur.

Moderate Muslims do not support any form of "brainwashing" that lends itself to the conclusion that murdering cartoonists is OK, and you've produced nothing whatsoever to indicate that they do.

Do tell, how are muslims threatened by "people like me", which I presume refers to people whom you perceive to be vilifying muslims?

Maybe this is a shock to you, but people tend to feel threatened when they are blamed for heinous crimes that they did not commit.

Of course, I am not vilifying muslims as a group. I am vilifying their religion and the lies peddled to them by their religious leaders.

Yeah, why don't you go ahead and make another ridiculous Nazi analogy, and then talk some more about this imaginary shared "ethos" all Muslims have in common?

Are you done frothing in the mouth, and ready to address the actual points being made?

Maybe you should get around to actually making one. So far, it's just been a lot of rambling, long-winded and largely incoherent nonsense that treats your own uninformed opinion, repeated over and over, as a substitute for evidence, which it most certainly is not.
 
Again, the military leadership of ISIS is made up of former Iraqi military leaders.

Take them away and nobody in the US ever hears about ISIS. It's just another group of religious nuts not capable of doing much harm.

Well the causes of ISIS are myriad -that a meteor did not strike the earth the day before al-Zarqawi was born is cause. But the plan of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad had been the formation of an Islamic State even before 9/11. The proximate cause of ISIS's dominance was al-Maliki's mistreatment of the Iraqi Sunnis after the US withdraw. Think of the first time you heard of ISIS, it was probably late December 2013, when they took over much of Anbar province without much of a fight. The majority Sunnis welcomed them as better than the Shiite oppressors in Baghdad. Before that they were just part of the Syrian rebel alphabet soup. Yet, the US and the West in general is given far too much credit in these things. Don't view this conflict as a Westerner. View as they view it, a re-hashing of religious wars fought hundreds of years ago.

Christopher Hitchens supported Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and their terrorist attack of the Iraqi people.

He has no credibility when it comes to terrorism.

And of course he died before any American ever heard of ISIS.

With it's former Iraqi military leaders guiding it's military operations. Please address this fact.
 
Which could be happening all the time and you wouldn't know because there is no evidence of things that don't happen.
What we do know is that this particular attack was not stopped. Nor the one before that, or the one before that. You probably know that every time shit like this happens, there are going to be comparisons between religions in the vein of "why don't you see Buddhist terrorists?" or "why are muslims twice as likely to commit terrorism in the US than Jews?"... the desirable outcome for all is if we can shift the islam on these arguments to the other of the equation and use them as positive examples when complaining about, say, Hindu arsonists or Pastafarian food poisoners.

Like I said, the easy solution is for muslism to just resign from their dumbass religion.
And what do you offer them in return?
For the French muslims, I offer Jean-Paul Sartre's existentialism. And bacon. They don't know what they are missing.

And why should they listen to you or me or anyone else who refers to the thing that shapes their world as dumbass?
Because we have other things in common.

If they don't want to do that, then it's up to them to figure out some other way to stop the terrorists. I am not part of their tribe, so I can only offer general advice.
So you should probably change the world insode your own tribe. Perfect your tribe and you can then perfect the other guy's
Can't we do both at the same time?

I can, but I know how to work the room. And RULE ONE of working the room: Don't attack the people you are trying to convince. Makes them think you think that you are all that a bag of chips. Whether or not you is beside the point. They feel you are playing them cheap. Then you prove you are all the things they hate and that their book was right about you.

And that doesn't even take into consideration all the other social, political, and economic factors that are at play.
 
Well the causes of ISIS are myriad -that a meteor did not strike the earth the day before al-Zarqawi was born is cause. But the plan of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad had been the formation of an Islamic State even before 9/11. The proximate cause of ISIS's dominance was al-Maliki's mistreatment of the Iraqi Sunnis after the US withdraw. Think of the first time you heard of ISIS, it was probably late December 2013, when they took over much of Anbar province without much of a fight. The majority Sunnis welcomed them as better than the Shiite oppressors in Baghdad. Before that they were just part of the Syrian rebel alphabet soup. Yet, the US and the West in general is given far too much credit in these things. Don't view this conflict as a Westerner. View as they view it, a re-hashing of religious wars fought hundreds of years ago.

Christopher Hitchens supported Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and their terrorist attack of the Iraqi people.

He has no credibility when it comes to terrorism.

And of course he died before any American ever heard of ISIS.

With it's former Iraqi military leaders guiding it's military operations. Please address this fact.

Irrespective of his support for the Iraq war, I posted the Hitchens clip for his discussion on the motivation of Islamic terror and the genocide in East Timor. That the West helped free the Catholic-Portuguese speaking people from, in his words, their attempted extirpation by the Muslim Indonesian government, was cited as the cause belli for terror bombings in Iraq and Bali. In the Islamic worldview, once a Muslim territory always a Muslim territory. Islam is the final iteration of god's revelation - hence, one does not convert to Islam but "reverts." It is not just East Timor. That Al-Andalus (Spain) is now under the control of non-Muslims is another layer of hurt religious pride. And in a speech last year the head of the Islamic State, Al-Baghdadi, left no ambiguity as to the organization's motivations - capture Rome, Rome!, exterminate the Shiites in Yemen, and overthrow the secular governments of North Africa. https://pietervanostaeyen.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/audio-message-by-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-even-if-the-disbelievers-despise-such/ The knee-jerk reaction to blame the West for Muslims behaving badly misses, by ignorance or duplicity, that fundamental Islam is not looking through the same lens as the West. An analogy is how the US viewed the Vietnam war as against communist expansion but the Viet Cong saw it as war of liberation. The Islamist are not fighting as a reaction to the West; they - if we take them at their word - are fighting as a religious duty. If the nations of the West were to retreat to isolation the Jihadists would still come after them, because that's what they do.
 
The slaughter in East Timor by the Indonesian government with US weapons and tacit approval is an example of what?
 
The slaughter in East Timor by the Indonesian government with US weapons and tacit approval is an example of what?

He's basically just repeating the tired old neocon "they hate us because we're free" canard. And it's bullshit.

Very few of the world's Muslims care about East Timor, and fewer still care about some lost memory of al-Andalus. Bin Laden explained clearly why he was attacking the West, and U.S. support for Israel was at the top of the list, because that's what resonates with people.

Were it as simple as the narrative that the neocons peddle, al-Qaida would not be a relatively new phenomenon, and it would not be targeting the U.S. and its allies almost exclusively.
 
The slaughter in East Timor by the Indonesian government with US weapons and tacit approval is an example of what?

He's basically just repeating the tired old neocon "they hate us because we're free" canard. And it's bullshit.

Very few of the world's Muslims care about East Timor, and fewer still care about some lost memory of al-Andalus. Bin Laden explained clearly why he was attacking the West, and U.S. support for Israel was at the top of the list, because that's what resonates with people.

Were it as simple as the narrative that the neocons peddle, al-Qaida would not be a relatively new phenomenon, and it would not be targeting the U.S. and its allies almost exclusively.

It is amazing how Hitchens became indistinguishable from the neocons in his later years.

He went from condemning Kissinger in his younger days to supporting arguments not that different from Kissinger's.
 
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