Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Politesse]

Columbia students suspended again:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/columbia-university-urges-pro-palestinian-protesters-disperse-after-failed-talks-2024-04-29/

Columbia suspends pro-Palestinian protesters after encampment talks stall

NEW YORK, April 29 (Reuters) - Columbia University on Monday began suspending pro-Palestinian student activists who refused to dismantle a protest camp on the New York City campus after the Ivy League school declared a stalemate in talks seeking to end the polarizing demonstration.

University President Nemat Minouche Shafik said in a statement that days of negotiations between student organizers and academic leaders had failed to persuade demonstrators to remove the dozens of tents set up to express opposition to Israel's war in Gaza.

Columbia students barricading themselves (link is via Wash-Po). This is going in the wrong direction. Instead of treating these people like adults and expecting them to act reasoned, the campus seems to have fucked up. The students are acting like the children they were treated like.

I think the danger to Jewish students is overspoken, I'd be more worried about the demonstrators doing more harm to themselves. I think the only option at this point is to walk away from it. If the Hall is expendable, expend it for a bit, let them have their moment with no one looking.

I took a look at Jonathan's feed and from that I've inferred some things. So previously, when the suspensions were given out, the group reasoned that suspensions were given in order to afterward justify arrests. That is, it's a more straightforward way of saying a student is trespassing on the area designated for protests (the lawn) when the student is disallowed in school. They were also aware this time of some extra police presence outside and so I reckon that when the suspensions were announced they deduced they were about to be arrested again, the encampment torn down, and since they'd need id's to work to get back into college once out of police custody, they concluded all things would be over. A lot of this is my inferring things here....but Columbia has a history of these kinds of occupations including during anti-war protests and the civil rights movement. We're hearing how peaceful the anti-war movement was, but in April 1968, actually it seems to the day of the first suspension, students barricaded themselves in because of a perceived civil rights issue but also a side issue was the school's relation to military research that they demanded the school not participate in. Now, in current times, the school looks back on the protests as a good thing with pride and so when the students considered what to do next to prevent arrest, a barricade consistent with past Columbia activism was a natural thought.

Looking from the outside, I do not see how this is productive. I am not imagining a win here. Am I too cynical?

What would a "win" look like?

 

[laughing dog]

You keep repeating the same misinformation. The citizens of Gaza did not deliberately choose death and destruction - Hamas did.

I believe that Hamas is Gazans.
Your unwillingness to grasp that fact doesn't change the reality.
Tom

I am not confused.Theree are plenty of Gazans who are not members of Hamas. Your persistence conflation of the two is the issue.

How do you distinguish clearly enough for the purpose of protecting Israel?
Tom

How is the difficulty of distinguishing between terrorists and civilians in Gaza at all relevant to the issue of whether or not what is going on in Gaza is a form of ethnic cleansing?

You really don't get that?
Israel is targeting the threat to Israel.

That's Hamas lead Gazans. Nothing to do with ethnicity, it's all about the ongoing threat that Gazans pose to Israel.

I get that it looks and walks like ethnic cleansing. I know that the ultra-right in Israel, along with Netanhyu, want a Jewish state with no Arabs. They are working to push Palestinians out of the West Bank. So, it has everything to do with ethnicity.

The reason Innocents and children (who could be militants) are dying is because they remain human shields for Gazan leaders. This could all end very quickly with sufficient cooperation from Gazans, including the Hamas.
Tom

It also could end just as quickly if the IDF just stopped.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

According to the protestors, "divestment" by Columbia from Israel. Seeing that Columbia isn't involved in the siege on Gaza, there is little else that can be done by Columbia.

For me, a win is everyone goes home, unharmed, unarrested.

For some others, they probably want these people rotting in jails.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The reason Innocents and children (who could be militants) are dying is because they remain human shields for Gazan leaders. This could all end very quickly with sufficient cooperation from Gazans, including the Hamas.
Tom

It also could end just as quickly if the IDF just stopped.

IDF has every right to manage Israeli security. Gaza has every right not to have to endure a very long siege because of Hamas. Effectively turn Gaza into a refugee camp. How the fuck do you turn a person's home into a refugee camp. Netanyahu achieved something special with that one. One problem with ending the siege (not a ceasefire, but siege) is that Gazans could try to go back home. And someone seems quite unhappy with that possibility.

 

[TomC]

I get that it looks and walks like ethnic cleansing. I know that the ultra-right in Israel, along with Netanhyu, want a Jewish state with no Arabs. They are working to push Palestinians out of the West Bank. So, it has everything to do with ethnicity.

That's demonstrably false.
Oh well.

It also could end just as quickly if the IDF just stopped

It wouldn't have started had it not been for violent Gazan terrorism.
Oh well.

Violent Muslim tribalists have been getting their way for decades. It now includes Netanyahu and Likud.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Suppose a bunch of Gazans appealed to the international community for help getting rid of the most corrupt and violent leadership.
What does anyone think would happen?

My guess is nothing.
It's easier to just clutch your pearls and blame those dirty Jews.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

For me, a win is everyone goes home, unharmed, unarrested.

Then your statement that there is no win scenario is very trivially true, since people have already been both harmed and arrested. But if those things weren't happening, that would actually be disaster in the larger picture, as a peaceful protest that no one ever hears about on the evening news is of no interest to anyone, unless they happen to walk across the 'Quad while it is ongoing.

 

[southernhybrid]

I'm curious exactly which protests accomplished so much. Our protests didn't end the Viet Nam War. It ended many years after the protests, when almost everyone was against it. WE may have helped lower the voting age to 18, but in retrospect, I'm not sure that was a good thing, considering that now we know that brain development isn't complete until around the mid 20s. We may have helped end the draft, which unfortunately has made our idiotic wars much longer, because most people aren't directly involved, so they don't seem to give a shit, at least not enough to protest!

But, at least the protests I attended were peaceful. We had a permit, had veterans of the war marching with us, along with police escorts. I know that some weren't peaceful and that was wrong. Occupy Wall St. didn't accomplish anything, did it? Black Lives Matter protests, which were mostly peaceful, despite what one of our posters might think, including the one in my small city, didn't change the way the police sometimes treat unarmed Black people. A small number of police have been charged for their crimes, but that's not enough of an accomplishment to brag about. The current protests aren't even protests any longer. They are taking over buildings. They are causing millions of dollars of damage to college campuses. These aren't peaceful protests. These aren't about free speech. They might have started out as peaceful, but they aren't at this point. They are full of hatred. They are inflicting fear on those who disagree.

Peaceful protests are one thing. That's not what's happening now. And, to be honest I think this is helping Trump, as the Repugs are already screaming that this is due to Biden's inability to control illegal acts. Do these ignorant people have any idea what life will be like under another Trump term? Biden has been trying to reason with Nettie since shortly after this over reaction to Hamas started. Yet, I've read in some of the more reliable sources of journalism, that more than 50% of the Palestinians still support Hamas. The US has been a strong ally of Israel for decades. Biden is between a rock and a hard place, but I don't think any one could do better then he is doing right now. There might be some peaceful protests going on, but far too many can't be called that any longer.

It's obvious that some of you aren't interested in listening or watching what's really going on. This madness won't accomplish anything but cause a lot of chaos and damage to buildings. It's not legal to take over buildings and do damage to them. How does that equate with a peaceful protest? I hope nobody gets killed or seriously injured from this shit. I will never forget the students that were killed at Kent State during the Nam protests. Is that where we are headed? Can you imagine what would happen if Trump was president right now! He'd be authorizing the shooting of these students. But, some of you are blaming Biden because he can't reason with a far right leader like Bibi. The Israelis need to do something about that. I'd be fully supportive of cutting off our aide, but I doubt that would help stop this mess. In fact, it might make things worse, as other terrorist groups would be able to get more involved.Why aren't these students in an uproar about some of the other horrible things going on in the world? And yes, Politesse, there is a lot more aide entering Gaza. The US has just authorized a lot of money for aide and while there still needs to be more, it's making it's way in a lot more than it was a few weeks ago. It's all over the news. The World Food Bank is even back in action. They are brave people, who I respect.

Since when are humans rational peaceful animals? We are fucked up apes, and both sides are evidence of this.

 

[TomC]

I wonder if all those student protesters realize how much they are supporting right wing ideologues?

They're accomplishing little in terms of policy. But they're doing a great job of demonstrating the degree to which those Lefty Liberals who run US universities, and attend them, are clueless. They're more interested in feeling important and smart than accomplishing anything.

Proof, to many people, that the Lefty Liberals in academia are far more the problem than solution.
Tom

 

[Swammerdami]

These pro-Hamas protestors are beyond the pale.

Derec, were you ever young? Did you ever go to University?

I did, and during the Vietnam protests of the late 1960's. Free speech (along with stupidity and ignorance) was rampant. They say the brain hasn't even matured at University age.

Did you go to third grade? "Guns and stones may break my bones, but free speech doesn't hurt me." Or do you want to send the cowardly and immature Kyle Rittenhouse with his gun out to defend Israel from student protesters?

In fact, we know you are delighted with anti-Zionist stupidity. In your tiny mind every utterance by a protesting crackpot impugns Sargeant Bartender and all the other fine people you despise.

 

[laughing dog]

I get that it looks and walks like ethnic cleansing. I know that the ultra-right in Israel, along with Netanhyu, want a Jewish state with no Arabs. They are working to push Palestinians out of the West Bank. So, it has everything to do with ethnicity.

That's demonstrably false.
Oh well.

You should be able to demonstrate that it is false. I won't hold my breath.

It also could end just as quickly if the IDF just stopped

It wouldn't have started had it not been for violent Gazan terrorism.

There you go again, conflating Gazan with Hamas. It is true that Hamas's actions started this. The question is how to end it. And right now, it is in the IDF's power to stop. In fact, they have the power to stop this much more quickly than civilian in Gaza. Of course, Hamas could surrender, but that is not going to happen either.

So, the destruction and carnage will continue.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

For me, a win is everyone goes home, unharmed, unarrested.

Then your statement that there is no win scenario is very trivially true, since people have already been both harmed and arrested.

I didn't say no win scenario. Also, I'm talking about now. A bunch of students have occupied a building. Things don't have to end quietly with this scenario. I want it to, and there are avenues that could help lead there. But as things stand, the protestors are demanding stuff that is ridiculous. And the campus would be in their right to assert control, though I don't think that'd be a manner to ensure the least amount of harm.

But if those things weren't happening, that would actually be disaster in the larger picture, as a peaceful protest that no one ever hears about on the evening news is of no interest to anyone, unless they happen to walk across the 'Quad while it is ongoing.

I've made it clear that I think things could have been managed better. I'm just not going to assassinate people's character, whether the school leadership or the protestors.

 

[crazyfingers]

At my Alma mater students are protesting for the University's disinvestment in Raytheon and dis-invitation of Raytheon from attending job fairs for graduating students. They see Raytheon as the huge evil for making weapons that the US is supplying to Israel. They seem blind to the fact that Raytheon is also the producer of many of the weapons that the US is providing to Ukraine to defend itself from Russia,

University students protest. It's sort of a right of passage to be in a university protest. I recall protesting the end of co-Ed bathrooms in the dorms! But I can't say that all protests are well thought out.

University protests did raise awareness of the terrible harm being done in the Vietnam war. Perhaps it will raise awareness that Israel is not particularly innocent here either. Bulldozing down Palestinians town in the west bank for more settlers comes to mind. It's the behavior of Europe's last colonial power. There is plenty of blame to go around related to the situation in the middle east.

 

[TomC]

You should be able to demonstrate that it is false. I won't hold my breath.

20% of Israelis are Arabic Muslims. Wiki it for yourself if you don't believe me.
Tom

 

[TomC]

There you go again, conflating Gazan with Hamas.

Is Hamas Gazans in leadership positions?
I'm pretty sure that they are.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

What would a "win" look like?

According to the protestors, "divestment" by Columbia from Israel. Seeing that Columbia isn't involved in the siege on Gaza, there is little else that can be done by Columbia.

For me, a win is everyone goes home, unharmed, unarrested.

For some others, they probably want these people rotting in jails.

Well, to you both, I guess I was a bit hasty. I was thinking in terms of the major stated goal but they've also stated other goals such as awareness and the prioritization of drawing attention to the killings in Gaza.

There are a lot of other things going on right now around this timespan that may also have interplay with increased pressure and awareness.

So I suppose time will tell.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I wonder if all those student protesters realize how much they are supporting right wing ideologues?

Who now, which protestors? Or was there a blood oath taken and there is only one specific thing being protested over? I'm certain there are people protesting the conditions for Gazans. There are probably people protesting for Hamas, though in fewer quantity, and many of those are naïve. And then there are those that are anti-Israel, for whatever reason, whether bigotry or a Netanyahu led Israel is all they've ever known and they aren't particularly in the know regarding how Likud's support in Israel is actually not that large.

So I was curious, who were you talking about? I'm assuming you weren't broad brushing everyone.

They're accomplishing little in terms of policy.

True.

But they're doing a great job of demonstrating the degree to which those Lefty Liberals who run US universities, and attend them, are clueless.

Oh... I guess broad brushes were on sale again. Seriously, we've got hundreds of colleges without thousands of professors, and you want to whittle this down to the "Lefty Liberals who run US universities", despite the fact we have seen no school in the US with anything close to even a sizable minority of students protesting. My college, had 3,000 students, and 100 students would still have only represented a very small percentage of students.

Proof, to many people, that the Lefty Liberals in academia are far more the problem than solution.

Well, if that is how you learned how to think in college, I can understand your grievance.

Anecdotally, my niece (in high school) is posting stuff that implies she doesn't know what she is talking about with Israel. I'm making suggestions, providing counterpoints, and what not, constructively. I'm not being an asshole about it. Teens, college students today have a different filter on Israel than older people do. Once someone starts to appreciate that, you can help manage the filter and present a different perspective on the on-goings in the region. Or just go the asshole way, it really won't matter what you say or do.

 

[Arctish]

Why not a camp for them in the West Bank?
Seriously, why not?

Sinai is right there.

So is Israel. And a lot of Gazans and their families came from the Ashkelon area.

The West Bank is a bit farther but it's Palestinian land, unlike Sinai which is part of Egypt. There's also the Bedouin towns in the Negev desert to consider.

 

[TomC]

Of course, Hamas could surrender, but that is not going to happen either.

So, the destruction and carnage will continue.

That's the true part.

Violent Muslim tribalists will continue to try to ethnically cleanse the region. If it isn't Hamas, some other group will continue the violence.
Until Israel pulverizes the ability to launch attacks from Gaza, Gazans will continue the violence.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What would a "win" look like?

According to the protestors, "divestment" by Columbia from Israel. Seeing that Columbia isn't involved in the siege on Gaza, there is little else that can be done by Columbia.

For me, a win is everyone goes home, unharmed, unarrested.

For some others, they probably want these people rotting in jails.

Well, to you both, I guess I was a bit hasty. I was thinking in terms of the major stated goal but they've also stated other goals such as awareness and the prioritization of drawing attention to the killings in Gaza.

There are a lot of other things going on right now around this timespan that may also have interplay with increased pressure and awareness.

So I suppose time will tell.

I think the kids in college don't know what they are talking about. I think many in here don't know what they are talking about.

Gazans are suffering, Israelis and Israeli families are suffering. They are suffering because of geopolitical conflict that is no where near as simple as some people make out. There is more baggage than at an airport. But this appears to be more about the team you support, than the strife this conflict has produced.