• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Analytic Idealism

"Mind did it" is no different than "god did it".
Hence why I tend to just observe "internality of the computer is internality of the mind; these are the same thing. Mystery solved. Let's just get back to building cool shit, even if that means there's a mind in there; let's just be careful to treat it well IFF the mind is one that could potentially care how it is treated."
And those who rail against physicalism always confuse me, given we haven't even discovered any nonphysical substance, and we don't know how any nonphysical substance would actually work. That seems to be a glaring hole in any non-physical explanation, yet they'll always claim "physicalism doesn't explain blah blah blah".
 
The Fundamental Tension in Integrated Information Theory 4.0’s Realist Idealism

IIT 4.0 openly rejects the mainstream view that consciousness is generated by the brain, positing instead that consciousness is ontologically primary while the physical domain is just “operational”.

This is exactly Kastrup’s position.

… understanding IIT’s realism as an assertion of the existence of other experiences beyond one’s own, what we call a non-solipsistic idealist realism.

Italics by the authors. Again, this is Kastrup’s position exactly.
 
"Mind did it" is no different than "god did it".

No, it is not. It is not even close to being that.

Or, if you want to maintain that this is so, it would be equally correct to say, “Physical neurons did it” is no different from “God did it.”
 
"Mind did it" is no different than "god did it".

No, it is not. It is not even close to being that.

Or, if you want to maintain that this is so, it would be equally correct to say, “Physical neurons did it” is no different from “God did it.”
Except no one's claiming physical neurons create all of reality. At best it creates a simulation of reality which is entirely different than creating all of reality, and if you want to claim they're equal that's a false equivalence.
 
"Mind did it" is no different than "god did it".
Hence why I tend to just observe "internality of the computer is internality of the mind; these are the same thing. Mystery solved. Let's just get back to building cool shit, even if that means there's a mind in there; let's just be careful to treat it well IFF the mind is one that could potentially care how it is treated."
And those who rail against physicalism always confuse me, given we haven't even discovered any nonphysical substance, and we don't know how any nonphysical substance would actually work. That seems to be a glaring hole in any non-physical explanation, yet they'll always claim "physicalism doesn't explain blah blah blah".

The whole point is to resolve the hard problem, which holds that no functionalist, physicalist account can explain qualia and subjectivity. As Kastrup and others cited above note, IIT explains it with an idealist as opposed to physicalist assumption. Under this idea what we standardly call physical substances are in fact mental events.
 
"Mind did it" is no different than "god did it".

No, it is not. It is not even close to being that.

Or, if you want to maintain that this is so, it would be equally correct to say, “Physical neurons did it” is no different from “God did it.”
Except no one's claiming physical neurons create all of reality. At best it creates a simulation of reality which is entirely different than creating all of reality, and if you want to claim they're equal that's a false equivalence.

Nobody is claiming neurons create all of reality, and nobody is claiming individual consciousness creates all of reality. These are red herrings and straw men.
 
"Mind did it" is no different than "god did it".

No, it is not. It is not even close to being that.

Or, if you want to maintain that this is so, it would be equally correct to say, “Physical neurons did it” is no different from “God did it.”
Except no one's claiming physical neurons create all of reality. At best it creates a simulation of reality which is entirely different than creating all of reality, and if you want to claim they're equal that's a false equivalence.

Nobody is claiming neurons create all of reality, and nobody is claiming individual consciousness creates all of reality. These are red herrings and straw men.
You are claiming external processes are essentially mental events. How am I supposed to interpret that?
 
Maybe it needs to be pointed out that analytic idealism, and idealist metaphysics in general, are anti-solipsistic.
 
"Mind did it" is no different than "god did it".

No, it is not. It is not even close to being that.

Or, if you want to maintain that this is so, it would be equally correct to say, “Physical neurons did it” is no different from “God did it.”
Except no one's claiming physical neurons create all of reality. At best it creates a simulation of reality which is entirely different than creating all of reality, and if you want to claim they're equal that's a false equivalence.

Nobody is claiming neurons create all of reality, and nobody is claiming individual consciousness creates all of reality. These are red herrings and straw men.
You are claiming external processes are essentially mental events. How am I supposed to interpret that?

Well, you know, it’s why I recommended reading the paper linked in the OP. Also, I am claiming nothing. I am discussing the idea.
 
"Mind did it" is no different than "god did it".

No, it is not. It is not even close to being that.

Or, if you want to maintain that this is so, it would be equally correct to say, “Physical neurons did it” is no different from “God did it.”
Except no one's claiming physical neurons create all of reality. At best it creates a simulation of reality which is entirely different than creating all of reality, and if you want to claim they're equal that's a false equivalence.

Nobody is claiming neurons create all of reality, and nobody is claiming individual consciousness creates all of reality. These are red herrings and straw men.
You are claiming external processes are essentially mental events. How am I supposed to interpret that?

Well, you know, it’s why I recommended reading the paper linked in the OP. Also, I am claiming nothing. I am discussing the idea.
You were claiming that physicalism doesn't explain yadda yadda.
 
"Mind did it" is no different than "god did it".
Hence why I tend to just observe "internality of the computer is internality of the mind; these are the same thing. Mystery solved. Let's just get back to building cool shit, even if that means there's a mind in there; let's just be careful to treat it well IFF the mind is one that could potentially care how it is treated."
And those who rail against physicalism always confuse me, given we haven't even discovered any nonphysical substance, and we don't know how any nonphysical substance would actually work. That seems to be a glaring hole in any non-physical explanation, yet they'll always claim "physicalism doesn't explain blah blah blah".
I think a lot has to do with the history of newspeak around computation and the mind.

Whenever we identify some concept in computers we blush and titter and claim that they're "metaphorically" like something but not like it in terms of being an implementation of the same underlying kind of relationship, or in other words 'the same thing from a different perspective'.

Like, at what point do we break down and admit that it's not really appropriate to call it metaphorical.

As I have stated, though, for pood, I am not an
purist in IIT.

Rather, I use IIT as a basis because it's really fucking hard to get traction as an independent term like a "computationalism" and it's just way easier to say.

To that end, I reject the pose that consciousness is "primary". It is literally just a paradigm of description *just as physicalism is*, as two sides of a coin rather than one coming from the other.

All mental constructs need a physical implementation. All physical implementations cause to exist in that place some mental construct.

Whether the current nature of physical implementations is a mental construct of some other physical implementation or simply a mental construct of their own right is an open question, and one that could only be shown one way or the other with some exposure of those underlying layers, and this will never be able to demonstrate full exposure of all underlying layers.

This ends up being no different from the claim that there is a god, in a world where we as neural objects, physical stuff that generate some internal state machine through interaction of their parts, can nonetheless make contact with lower layers of reality despite this being indistinguishable from merely connecting to the local neurology which takes artifacts of the world to make a simulation of what happens there for you to experience.

The result is that if I am right, Kasptup is arguing to dissolve oneself in one's own brain and sacrifice whatever function that the ego could serve, to become less, and so less powerful in the direction of your actions towards your goals.

If Kastrup is right, though, how would the decisions of the greater metaphysical mind, so obsessively focused on being physical stuff and implementing the natural laws, allow this connection? Where is the wave of action through the switch like behaviors that would be necessarily quivering among the dance that makes physics?

Or would you propose hidden complexity? Where could you justify this view over the view lacking this complexity and suggesting that this oneness is merely one-ness with the neural neighborhood?
 
You were claiming that physicalism doesn't explain yadda yadda.

What “yada-yada” would that be? :unsure:

Non-serious posts will be ignored.
What's non-serious is claiming physicalism doesn't explain a thing and then not explaining the thing that is supposedly superior to physicalism.
 
You were claiming that physicalism doesn't explain yadda yadda.

What “yada-yada” would that be? :unsure:

Non-serious posts will be ignored.
What's non-serious is claiming physicalism doesn't explain a thing and then not explaining the thing that is supposedly superior to physicalism.

All oif this has been covered, both in the linked paper in question and in my summary of it in the OP. I have concisely explained in my summary and in subsequent posts the “thing that is supposedly superior to physicalism,” and, of course, the paper itself fleshes out my summary in detail.
 
I also think analytic idealism provides a metaphysical grounding for Tom Clark’s essay at naturalism.org, Death, Nothingness, and Subjectivity, an essay which, on physicalist grounds, would be incoherent. Please note that Clark is a naturalist and an atheist.
 
From the “fundamental tension” article linked upthread:

In the present article, we have tried to advance a better philosophical understanding of IIT 4.0, centred on the apparent tension between its idealistic ontology and realism. After presenting the fundamentals of the theory (Section 2), we argued that IIT’s idealistic ontology should be understood as a combination of phenomenal primitivism, reductionism regarding Φ-structures and physical substrates of consciousness (PSCs), and eliminativism about non-conscious physical entities (Section 3). That is, the theory’s ontology asserts that only experiences ultimately exist, but that these can also be described and purportedly explained scientifically as Φ-structures, and more indirectly, as physical substrates of consciousness. Identifying and understanding the latter would be the typical target of standard neuroscientific research on consciousness, e.g., finding the brain network minimally sufficient to support consciousness. However, according to IIT, the way a neural substrate exists for itself, as a subjective consciousness, is far better conveyed scientifically by the theory’s notion of Φ-structure and its causal properties. In other words, a PSC truly exists, intrinsically, as a Φ-structure, which means as a conscious entity with such and such phenomenal structure. Thus, the terms “conscious experience” and “Φ-structure” are two ways to describe how a conscious entity exists for itself: phenomenologically in the case of the former; physically/scientifically in the case of the latter. On the other hand, IIT’s eliminativist aspect asserts that all systems that do not specify maximal system integrated information do not exist as conscious, intrinsic entities, and hence, do not truly exist as entities on their own (mind-independently). The entities that are ontologically eliminated include, presumably, atoms, fMRI scanners, cerebellums, living bodies, and distant galaxies, among many others (i.e., all non-PSCs).


Then, in Section 4 we highlighted the tension that this metaphysical position entails regarding IIT’s own declared realism. After presenting and refuting three potential solutions to this apparent contradiction, we proposed what we regard as the most plausible alternative: understanding IIT’s realism as an assertion of the existence of other experiences beyond one’s own, what we have called a non-solipsistic idealist realism.

Italics by the authors.
 
I also think analytic idealism provides a metaphysical grounding for Tom Clark’s essay at naturalism.org, Death, Nothingness, and Subjectivity, an essay which, on physicalist grounds, would be incoherent. Please note that Clark is a naturalist and an atheist.
I mean, I just addressed death, and subjectivity from physicalist grounds, and have numerous times discussed the soul.

Again, you have to support the idea that there's some necessary primary structure of metaphysics or the mind outside of the combinatorics of the stuff that exists here.

I return again to my position that my primary gripe with this guy isn't necessarily his drug fueled woo about them wanting to believe in Spinoza's God rather than explicitly accepting that things don't need to be "real" or have "location" to be important or metaphysically "true", but rather his drug fueled woo about deleting one's 'homunculus' putting them in any more direct contact with that mind stuff of the whole of the universe.

From all rational observations, that's not what happens. You're really just turning your 'homunculus' into a P-zombie at that point, or the equivalent of it. It's just a pointless suicide.
 
Some of you may be interested in Kastrup’s debate with Sabine Hossenfelder on superdeterminism, here. Supposedly you can skip the long, tedious, ad-ridden intro, but I found skipping did not work for me.

Oddly, Kastrup rejects superdeterminism but also Everettian quantum mechanics, which I find weird because many worlds seems to nicely complement his own concept of dissociative alters.
 
Also, with regards to Phi, LOL, that's where IIT really spins off the handle.

Last I read about it, they were attempting to boil down consciousness to complexity, when all indications of computational theory and science directly impugn the specific logic as being more significant than "complexity".

Really the only time people should be talking about a complexity metric is in terms of things like "halting problems"*: where there is an uncomputable number that does define a real threshold above which a threshold is reached. Maybe there is a particular circuit complexity necessary for personhood, linguistics, etc. but it's not really important.

Really, what is important are the organization of the graph structure into a system that can generate action through conditional activation of nodes. Our brains just aren't apparently built to receive anything grander than that, and there's just no way to distinguish between whether it's "real" or whether it's "you being a nutcase", from the inside, when the aliens from alpha centauri tell you they are contacting you with psychic waves when you meditate into ego-death.

I would just typify that as you silencing your sensitivity to the monkey-mind feed, hypnotizing yourself, and letting your theory-craft beliefs get so loud as to prompt creation of a new character in your brain into the vacuum you just created by self-minimizing.

You could summon anything you wanted into your head that way. A lot of people summon "demons" or whatever. Some folks manage to dissociate up a proper pantheon in there. Occasionally that pantheon serves as a proper mixture of experts, but it isn't gods or the universe, it's just "them" but with little growths grown from the ashes of their own ego pretending they are grander things.

Honestly, it's sad how a lot of people with any interest in such deeper and weirder magics end up, shattered mumbling nutters who can't tell the difference between what is real and the summoned illusions of their own minds.

Whenever I see someone touting such dissolution or minimization of the reality of self, though, really, I just end up seeing that horrible Wolf from The Never Ending Story talking about how those without dreams are easy to control.

The ego is the part tasked with dreaming those dreams, having those goals, and the hungry desire to be and do more.
 
I also think analytic idealism provides a metaphysical grounding for Tom Clark’s essay at naturalism.org, Death, Nothingness, and Subjectivity, an essay which, on physicalist grounds, would be incoherent. Please note that Clark is a naturalist and an atheist.
I mean, I just addressed death, and subjectivity from physicalist grounds, and have numerous times discussed the soul.

Again, you have to support the idea that there's some necessary primary structure of metaphysics or the mind outside of the combinatorics of the stuff that exists here.

I return again to my position that my primary gripe with this guy isn't necessarily his drug fueled woo about them wanting to believe in Spinoza's God rather than explicitly accepting that things don't need to be "real" or have "location" to be important or metaphysically "true", but rather his drug fueled woo about deleting one's 'homunculus' putting them in any more direct contact with that mind stuff of the whole of the universe.

From all rational observations, that's not what happens. You're really just turning your 'homunculus' into a P-zombie at that point, or the equivalent of it. It's just a pointless suicide.

I don’t know what is necessarily wrong with Spinoza’s god, which was Einstein’s god — nothing personal — or whose “drug-fueled woo” you are referring to. Clark’s? Kastrup’s? Neither was espousing drug-fueled woo.
 
Back
Top Bottom