Are we no better than Dogs?

[Ramaraksha]

You simply don’t understand evolution or symbiosis. At least three times I have asked you to look up “symbiotic relationship” and you have not done so, have you? Your argument that dogs were “intended” to be wild or that the dog/human relationship is somehow “unnatural” is EXACTLY the way that theists argue. It is a perfect equivalent to the theistic argument that gay relationships are “unnatural” and it was “intended” that sex is only for men and women and then only to produce offspring. So while attacking theists you have the exact same mentality that they do.

"At least three times I have asked you to look up “symbiotic relationship”" STOP TALKING DOWN TO ME!
I know what it is - no need to look it up
The relationship STARTED as a symbiotic relationship - they were thrown some food and they kept guard at night
Still happens with feral dogs in India
The relationship has now changed - they are no longer guard dogs - they are PETS now!
They didn't ask to be our pets, they didn't ask to be our DEPENDENTS!
Do you realize such dependence means the symbiotic relationship is over?
I have written about this over and over!
.
I have written what life is like from the viewpoint of the Dog - it is not a pleasant life - did you catch any of that?
How would you like to NEVER see your children as most male dogs never do?
How would you like to have your children taken away from you after a few weeks, as the female dogs endure?
How would you like to be put on a leash and walked around whenever you go out?
How would you like to be told you have to hold it until your master takes you out?
How would you like to eat the SAME food every day, morning and night?
It did not ask for this - we forced such a life on to them
.
oh yeah - "just a few dogs" are having breathing problems because of the way we bred them
"Just a few dogs" are bred to run races for our enjoyment & get shot if they break a leg and/or can't run anymore
"Just a few dogs" are dumped into the wild or into shelters when the family gets tired of them
"just a few dogs" get left in the cold, are abused, beaten, starved by their owners

 

[ideologyhunter]

Jesus Christ. Get a dog. Live with it. Treat it well. Look at its face, they don't hide emotions like we do.
And yes, I'm talking down to you.
And my dog would piss on your shoe, then hop in the car with me. And he'd be dreaming about his next bowl of SAME OLD kibble (which tastes way better than raw mouse dug out of the ground, I've heard.)
Again, Jeeeeesus Christ already.

 

[Elixir]

Again, Jeeeeesus Christ already.

Yes. Rama has sufficiently proven the invincibility of his ignorance about dogs.

 

[pood]

You simply don’t understand evolution or symbiosis. At least three times I have asked you to look up “symbiotic relationship” and you have not done so, have you? Your argument that dogs were “intended” to be wild or that the dog/human relationship is somehow “unnatural” is EXACTLY the way that theists argue. It is a perfect equivalent to the theistic argument that gay relationships are “unnatural” and it was “intended” that sex is only for men and women and then only to produce offspring. So while attacking theists you have the exact same mentality that they do.

"At least three times I have asked you to look up “symbiotic relationship”" STOP TALKING DOWN TO ME!

Oh god, are you really back with this nonsense?

I know what it is - no need to look it up

Apparently you don’t know what it means.

The relationship STARTED as a symbiotic relationship - they were thrown some food and they kept guard at night
Still happens with feral dogs in India
The relationship has now changed - they are no longer guard dogs - they are PETS now!

That is STILL a symbiotic relationship.

Many dogs are not pets — they are working dogs. They work as guard dogs, guide dogs, service dogs, mental-health dogs, sheep heading dogs, police dogs, fire dogs, and on and on. None of that would have been possible without co-evolution.

A majority in the west are pets, but pets earn their keep too — THEY MAKE US FEEL GOOD. That is worth a hell of a lot more than some stupid company that sells us useless gimcrack junk.

They didn't ask to be our pets, they didn't ask to be our DEPENDENTS!

Of COURSE they didn’t, but we didn’t kidnap or enslave them, either, we CO-EVOLVED IN A MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL PARTNERSIP! Duh!

Do you realize such dependence means the symbiotic relationship is over?

No, it is NOT over. See above!

I have written about this over and over!

And you’ve been wrong over and over!

.
I have written what life is like from the viewpoint of the Dog - it is not a pleasant life - did you catch any of that?

Yeah, and YOU ARE WRONG! Dogs LOVE their lives! Their lives are probably the most pleasant of any life on the planet. My god, have you ever had a pet dog???

How would you like to NEVER see your children as most male dogs never do?

How would you like to STOP IGNORING WHAT PEOPLE WRITE, and address the point that female dogs ABANDON THEIR YOUNG after 6-8 weeks of weaning, and the male dog is NEVER AROUND TO BEGIN WITH, because Daddy ran out after humping momma?? Therefore, without us, the puppies would JUST DIE. SHEESH!

How would you like to have your children taken away from you after a few weeks, as the female dogs endure?

See above.

How would you like to be put on a leash and walked around whenever you go out?

For the umpteenth time, DOGS ARE NOT HUMANS. The leash is for their PROTECTION, and they DO NOT CARE! Many dogs, when informed that they are going for “walkies,” rush to fetch their leashes and they bring it to their humans while wagging their tails and jumping for joy!

How would you like to be told you have to hold it until your master takes you out?

Dogs do not care. And they do not have to “hold it.”

How would you like to eat the SAME food every day, morning and night?

THEY DO NOT EAT THE SAME FOOD EVERY DAY, and even if they did, THEY DO NOT CARE! Do you even READ what others write? Do you follow links to info we give on this matter?

It did not ask for this - we forced such a life on to them

No, we fortuitously CO-EVOLVED!

.
oh yeah - "just a few dogs" are having breathing problems because of the way we bred them

That is correct, a tiny minority. The majority of dogs breathe just fine and dandy.

"Just a few dogs" are bred to run races for our enjoyment & get shot if they break a leg and/or can't run anymore

And that is wrong, but that is a tiny minority.

"Just a few dogs" are dumped into the wild or into shelters when the family gets tired of them

It is relatively few, but YOU would have all puppies abandoned to the wild after their mother abandons them after weaning! What a wonderful humanitarian you are!

"just a few dogs" get left in the cold, are abused, beaten, starved by their owners

Yes, that is a tiny minority, and those are BAD HUMANS. NO ONE is condoning that!

 

[Elixir]

Actually they DID ask to be pets.
Thag the caveman didn’t live trap a wolf pair and keep them chained to a post.

Jesus fuck this is stupid.

 

[pood]

Actually they DID ask to be pets.
Thag the caveman didn’t live trap a wolf pair and keep them chained to a post.

Jesus fuck this is stupid.

This is arguably even stupider than creationist “arguments.”

 

[pood]

Also, he STILL does not notice that he is making two contradictory arguments — saying on the one hand that we essentially ENSLAVED dogs, and on the other hand that they PARASITIZED us. Which is it? It can’t be both!

But, of course, neither is true, we have a SYMBIOTIC relationship, the specific form of which is called “mutualism.” Parasitism and mutualism are subsets of symbiosis.

 

[pood]

How would you like to NEVER see your children as most male dogs never do?

I just have to home in on this — it its priceless in its obdurate cluelessness.

He does not seem to know that dog fathers are not human fathers. After humping the bitch, the male dog scrams. He couldn’t care less what happens to the resultant pups and arguably does not even realize that his act will help produce pups.

Rama must fantasize that after the Act, male dogs spend years pining around in the streets in search of their lost pups, so cruelly stolen by humans.

 

[TomC]

He does not seem to know that dog fathers are not human fathers. After humping the bitch, the male dog scrams. He couldn’t care less what happens to the resultant pups and arguably does not even realize that his act will help produce pups.

Also, a ridiculous number of human fathers behave exactly the same way.
The problem Rama is referring to is ugly behavior by miscreant humans. Probably the same people who abuse dependent animals are the ones who abuse their fellow humans.
Tom

 

[pood]

He does not seem to know that dog fathers are not human fathers. After humping the bitch, the male dog scrams. He couldn’t care less what happens to the resultant pups and arguably does not even realize that his act will help produce pups.

Also, a ridiculous number of human fathers behave exactly the same way.
The problem Rama is referring to is ugly behavior by miscreant humans. Probably the same people who abuse dependent animals are the ones who abuse their fellow humans.
Tom

Right, as I explained to him, nobody condones such behavior, but that is a small minority of human-dog interactions.

 

[Elixir]

He couldn’t care less what happens to the resultant pups and arguably does not even realize that his act will help produce pups.

In the wild, the bitch would typically mate with more than one male during her heat. If that male encounters the resulting “mixed” litter they may kill some or all of the pups.
That’s the kind of happy home life they have given up by embracing domestication.

 

[steve_bank]

Ants "herd" or farm aphids, a symbiotic relationship where ants protect aphids from predators, and in return, the aphids provide them with a sugary substance called honeydew.

Have you seen ground level video of army ants on the move? They kill and eat anything they can in thir path.

Yes, army ants are carnivorous, meaning they primarily feed on other insects and small vertebrates

Locusts and pests that can destroy a forest. Carnivorous plants.

The entire ecosystem is at war for survival.

 

[ideologyhunter]

How would you like to STOP IGNORING WHAT PEOPLE WRITE, and address the point that female dogs ABANDON THEIR YOUNG after 6-8 weeks of weaning, and the male dog is NEVER AROUND TO BEGIN WITH, because Daddy ran out after humping momma?? Therefore, without us, the puppies would JUST DIE. SHEESH!

I like what you wrote but would quibble a bit with the description above. Yeah, there is a rejection, where mama dog is just plain worn out with her litter. But when I picked up my current dog, at the ten week point, there was a different situation at the breeder's. The mother dog (Delilah) was a totally outgoing dachshund -- loved everybody and totally trusting and submissive. Her puppies were now 10 weeks old, and new owners were showing up for the one they'd reserved. The breeder had been feeding the puppies kibble for a few weeks, but they still wanted to nurse, and so she had to defend Delilah from her own pups. She told me that Delilah was severely worn out from having a gang of hungry puppies feeding off her for two months. She had ten floppy teats that looked like pulled taffy. The breeder said that, if she was left with the puppies that were still there, she'd let them nurse, no matter how tired and sore she was. Undoubtedly the time would've come that she would've pushed them away and growled at them. But her little litter was almost all gone at this point, gone to homes like mine. (And BTW, far from having an existential crisis over the fate of her young, she came up to me at once when she saw me and jumped on my lap for attention.) In this case, having a human intervention in the weaning was a definite plus for the mother. The papa dachshund, Cash, watched all this from a distance, and didn't want anything to do with the hyper puppies (or with me, for that matter.)

 

[unapologetic]

Ramaraksha and Pood, answer me this:
Do you think humans and cows have a “symbiotic relationship”?

I'll accept we co-evolved with dogs. But we co-evolved with head lice too. Is that symbiotic? (I think not)
However we OWN the entire canine species. WE deliberately evolved them.
The Soviets bread tame foxes in only 10-15 generations. Is that a symbiotic relationship? Is that co-evolution?
I'm leaning toward Ramaraksha. The human/canine relationship is heavily in our favor, by conscious design. I don't think 'symbiotic' quite fits it.

Dogs abandoning their young is a false comparison in this instance. Dog behavior is corrupted by our influence.
A proper comparison is, What does a Gray Wolf do? Gray Wolves should be the 'control group'/baseline.

 

[pood]

Ramaraksha and Pood, answer me this:
Do you think humans and cows have a “symbiotic relationship”?

I'll accept we co-evolved with dogs. But we co-evolved with head lice too. Is that symbiotic? (I think not)

Yes, it is. Parasitism, where one species benefits at the expense of another, is an example of symbiosis.

Another example is where one species benefits, but the other is neither harmed nor helped.

A third example, mutualism, is where both species gain mutual benefit. That is the relation that humans and canines have. Nature abounds with symbiosis.

However we OWN the entire canine species. WE deliberately evolved them.

No, we did not. You are mistaking the normative for the descriptive. We did not set out to “deliberately” do anything.

The Soviets bread tame foxes in only 10-15 generations. Is that a symbiotic relationship? Is that co-evolution?

Breeding — artificial selection — is quite recent in the human/canine relationship, Artificial selection can be bad for dogs, which was already covered, and humans should not breed dogs for traits that can be injurious to them just for our benefit. That is when mutualism shades into parasitism.

I'm leaning toward Ramaraksha. The human/canine relationship is heavily in our favor, by conscious design.

No, it is not. Again, ten thousand years ago, human did not set out to consciously domesticate wolves. But regardless, I don’t see how you conclude that the relationship is heavily in our favor. Last I looked, it’s not the dog that goes out in the morning to work hard at a job all day while the human lolls around the house all day waiting for free food when the dogs gets home.

I don't think 'symbiotic' quite fits it.

Symbiotic/mutualist is exactly the relation.

Dogs abandoning their young is a false comparison in this instance. Dog behavior is corrupted by our influence.

Again, mistaking descriptive for normative.

A proper comparison is, What does a Gray Wolf do? Gray Wolves should be the 'control group'/baseline.

No, it should not. Dogs are not wolves. Dogs will not care for their young after they have been weaned. It does not matter that this is because of our co-evolution with dogs, which did not occur with deliberate intent anyway. It’s just what IS. If humans did not care for dogs after they are weaned, they would just die.

 

[Elixir]

Our behavior is as “corrupted” by dogs as theirs is by humans.
Almost certainly, canines initiated the process of domestication. It’s possible I suppose, that it began with someone grabbing wolf pups and somehow nursing them to healthy adults, but that seems very far-fetched to me. More likely some individuals became habituated to humans and humans allowed it because of reciprocal benefits. When they bred, the offspring were already used to the smell of humans … and now we have golden retrievers and other “working breeds” as well as Pomeranians, poodles and other “non-working” breeds, and every one of them has the potential for symbiosis with humans.

 

[southernhybrid]

Jesus Christ. Get a dog. Live with it. Treat it well. Look at its face, they don't hide emotions like we do.
And yes, I'm talking down to you.
And my dog would piss on your shoe, then hop in the car with me. And he'd be dreaming about his next bowl of SAME OLD kibble (which tastes way better than raw mouse dug out of the ground, I've heard.)
Again, Jeeeeesus Christ already.

My dog Sunny would even love Rama because she loves everyone who comes into my house. She, unlike people, never judges anyone as long as they treat her kindly. She doesn't care who you vote for, what you look like or if you're religious or an atheist. I doubt she believes in free will. She seems to understand that humans and dogs are influenced by their environments and genetics. Dogs are the best. They love us and if we are good people, we love them. Dogs rule! But, I think we've made that point many times in this thread.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Well, yeah, I overstated, and my dog Bogie loves everyone except joggers (he gets demented, perhaps because they won't stop for him.) But there's some truth to the pissing on shoes, and it's not aggression on his part; he loses it and starts sprinkling when a stranger truly adores him and starts talking baby talk to him.

 

[Elixir]

The Gods don't want their humans to be tough and stringy, they want them fat and relaxed.

Then rest assured. This is not a feed lot, or we wouldn’t be eating meat. Everyone knows you finish them on grain.

 

[pood]

A woman I know has a little fuzzy brown dog with a kind of Popeye sailor’s face and a long beard, and he hates the postman. He invariably yaps up a storm at them. Last Halloween the woman dressed him up in an adorable little postal worker’s outfit.