"Children cannot consent to puberty blockers" and being in the wrong body

[excreationist]

My point is Chris seemed persuasive when he debated University students. I’ve now listened to most of the 54 minute professor Dave video. I guess this is an example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Maybe I’ll change my mind about breast removal on 13 year olds eventually.

Your point? For a person who is just dipping their toes into transgender issues, you sound an awful like Chris.

Well most of what I've heard about these issues was from Chris. I thought it's good I could hear a lot of counter-arguments from many people after only looking into this for a couple of hours in these forums.

You aren't listening to counter arguments, you are clearly assimilating them and not listening to anything else.
But congrats on becoming an expert on this by watching a long YouTube video.

Well now I'd no longer be eager to share Chris with other people.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You'd be best off to study a bit on manipulative media and how to tell when you are being manipulated by someone, instead of informed by them.

 

[excreationist]

The really messed up part is that I am in that 1% who regret their teenage surgical breast removal, for all I only lost the one breast.

That seems to be accurate. I had assumed that that figure would be much higher based on what Chris was saying.

"In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret"

Part of it was caused by a doctor just not asking once they knew what it was, not even doing any tests. Part of it was also that I would have been strongly socially pressured to remove it, to strengthen the masculinity of my image: Men don't usually walk around with a uniboob.

But the fact that I regret it isn't an argument for others to not do what they wish, but rather a strong argument against such immediate "straight" gender confirming acts. Unlike a "trans kid", I wasn't counseled for a year on whether I really wanted that breast tissue gone, or even told "it's a breast and it's natural" albeit a minor cancer risk. It was just done in the course of an afternoon, and now I can't really enjoy playing with that nipple anymore.

If I had counseling like trans kids get, maybe I wouldn't have had a surgery I regret.

That would have seemed to support Chris but overall I don't think it does very strongly due to that 1% statistic.

 

[excreationist]

You'd be best off to study a bit on manipulative media and how to tell when you are being manipulated by someone, instead of informed by them.

BTW I had only found Chris to be very persuasive for a couple of days. I'm not completely against him now though.

Sky News Australia is an extreme version of manipulative media though.

 

[Jarhyn]

But why were you in the first place? This forum has been presenting the science Sapolski discussed there (as well as the other guy, the one Axulus posted) for well over a decade.

Sigma, when they were around, posted a few such studies on the neurology of sex, and so did I.

Thi

The really messed up part is that I am in that 1% who regret their teenage surgical breast removal, for all I only lost the one breast.

That seems to be accurate. I had assumed that that figure would be much higher based on what Chris was saying.

"In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret"

Part of it was caused by a doctor just not asking once they knew what it was, not even doing any tests. Part of it was also that I would have been strongly socially pressured to remove it, to strengthen the masculinity of my image: Men don't usually walk around with a uniboob.

But the fact that I regret it isn't an argument for others to not do what they wish, but rather a strong argument against such immediate "straight" gender confirming acts. Unlike a "trans kid", I wasn't counseled for a year on whether I really wanted that breast tissue gone, or even told "it's a breast and it's natural" albeit a minor cancer risk. It was just done in the course of an afternoon, and now I can't really enjoy playing with that nipple anymore.

If I had counseling like trans kids get, maybe I wouldn't have had a surgery I regret.

That would have seemed to support Chris but overall I don't think it does due to that 1% statistic.

Absolutely nothing I say supports Chris.

Actually read what I said: the same people pushing gender normativity are the ones causing some of those regrets.

The trans healthcare system actually vigorously screens against any possibility of that.

Imagine the stink that Christians and Karens would be making if their teenage boy was suddenly expected to wait until they were 18 to get their gynecomastia removed!

My point is, does MY regret justify those boys not getting treatment? At best it justifies better education about that sort of thing before the fact and in the process of removal.

 

[excreationist]

Part of it was caused by a doctor just not asking once they knew what it was, not even doing any tests. Part of it was also that I would have been strongly socially pressured to remove it, to strengthen the masculinity of my image: Men don't usually walk around with a uniboob.

But the fact that I regret it isn't an argument for others to not do what they wish, but rather a strong argument against such immediate "straight" gender confirming acts. Unlike a "trans kid", I wasn't counseled for a year on whether I really wanted that breast tissue gone, or even told "it's a breast and it's natural" albeit a minor cancer risk. It was just done in the course of an afternoon, and now I can't really enjoy playing with that nipple anymore.

If I had counseling like trans kids get, maybe I wouldn't have had a surgery I regret.

That would have seemed to support Chris but overall I don't think it does due to that 1% statistic.

Absolutely nothing I say supports Chris.

Actually read what I said: the same people pushing gender normativity are the ones causing some of those regrets.

The trans healthcare system actually vigorously screens against any possibility of that.

Imagine the stink that Christians and Karens would be making if their teenage boy was suddenly expected to wait until they were 18 to get their gynecomastia removed!

My point is, does MY regret justify those boys not getting treatment? At best it justifies better education about that sort of thing before the fact and in the process of removal.

Ok, gynecomastia, "enlarged male breast tissue"? I just assumed that it was due to what Chris was talking about, the removal of female breasts.

 

[Jarhyn]

My point is Chris seemed persuasive when he debated University students. I’ve now listened to most of the 54 minute professor Dave video. I guess this is an example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Maybe I’ll change my mind about breast removal on 13 year olds eventually.

Your point? For a person who is just dipping their toes into transgender issues, you sound an awful like Chris.

Well most of what I've heard about these issues was from Chris. I thought it's good I could hear a lot of counter-arguments from many people after only looking into this for a couple of hours in these forums.

You aren't listening to counter arguments, you are clearly assimilating them and not listening to anything else.
But congrats on becoming an expert on this by watching a long YouTube video.

But why were you in the first place? This forum has been presenting the science Sapolski discussed there (as well as the other guy, the one Axulus posted) for well over a decade.

Sigma, when they were around, posted a few such studies on the neurology of sex, and so did I.

Thi

The really messed up part is that I am in that 1% who regret their teenage surgical breast removal, for all I only lost the one breast.

That seems to be accurate. I had assumed that that figure would be much higher based on what Chris was saying.

"In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret"

Part of it was caused by a doctor just not asking once they knew what it was, not even doing any tests. Part of it was also that I would have been strongly socially pressured to remove it, to strengthen the masculinity of my image: Men don't usually walk around with a uniboob.

But the fact that I regret it isn't an argument for others to not do what they wish, but rather a strong argument against such immediate "straight" gender confirming acts. Unlike a "trans kid", I wasn't counseled for a year on whether I really wanted that breast tissue gone, or even told "it's a breast and it's natural" albeit a minor cancer risk. It was just done in the course of an afternoon, and now I can't really enjoy playing with that nipple anymore.

If I had counseling like trans kids get, maybe I wouldn't have had a surgery I regret.

That would have seemed to support Chris but overall I don't think it does due to that 1% statistic.

Absolutely nothing I say supports Chris.

Actually read what I said: the same people pushing gender normativity are the ones causing some of those regrets.

The trans healthcare system actually vigorously screens against any possibility of that.

Imagine the stink that Christians and Karens would be making if their teenage boy was suddenly expected to wait until they were 18 to get their gynecomastia removed!

My point is, does MY regret justify those boys not getting treatment? At best it justifies better education about that sort of thing before the fact and in the process of removal.

Ok, gynecomastia, "enlarged male breast tissue"? I just assumed that it was due to what Chris was talking about, the removal of female breasts.

There is no difference. Breasts, once they grow, are breasts. Have you not been paying attention to the science-laden videos?

 

[excreationist]

There is no difference. Breasts, once they grow, are breasts. Have you not been paying attention to the science-laden videos?

Sorry I didn't understand why as a male you had your breasts removed and then regretted it. I can't seem to find the answer in your posts. Do you mean it was a big man boob or was it a small breast? It seems they thought it could be a tumor. The breast removal Chris is talking about is due to aesthetics.

 

[Jarhyn]

There is no difference. Breasts, once they grow, are breasts. Have you not been paying attention to the science-laden videos?

I can't imagine a male regretting an operation to remove their breasts. But isn't what you said? I'm confused.

I am as I am, and I regret the removal of my right breast as a teen. It was removed after almost no consultation at all by a straight doctor for straight people who didn't care one bit about the seriousness of gender confirming medicine. It was my childhood doctor, in fact. It was removed for aesthetic purposes, after no pre-removal testing for benign-ness.

Pretty much any situation where "you can't imagine an X doing Y", you need to just throw away and force yourself to imagine it anyway.

 

[excreationist]

ou said "Don't even think of trying to censor me" but you sound like you're trying to censor me.

Last time I checked, mate, "shut the fuck up": didn't have any fucking nuance.

Mate.

So I started a thread and you want me to stop replying (in the way that I have).

 

[Jarhyn]

ou said "Don't even think of trying to censor me" but you sound like you're trying to censor me.

Last time I checked, mate, "shut the fuck up": didn't have any fucking nuance.

Mate.

So I started a thread and you want me to stop replying (in the way that I have).

The problem here is that Chris's arguments are all PRATTs, and SMEG doesn't pass the smell test, either (I'm calling them that because it's funny).

 

[excreationist]

There is no difference. Breasts, once they grow, are breasts. Have you not been paying attention to the science-laden videos?

I can't imagine a male regretting an operation to remove their breasts. But isn't what you said? I'm confused.

I am as I am, and I regret the removal of my right breast as a teen. It was removed after almost no consultation at all by a straight doctor for straight people who didn't care one bit about the seriousness of gender confirming medicine. It was my childhood doctor, in fact. It was removed for aesthetic purposes, after no pre-removal testing for benign-ness.

Pretty much any situation where "you can't imagine an X doing Y", you need to just throw away and force yourself to imagine it anyway.

So I was wondering if you still have a uniboob? Can't you just get the remaining boob removed? Also does the removed breast look ok? I mean does it look like a regular male breast?

 

[excreationist]

Ok, gynecomastia, "enlarged male breast tissue"? I just assumed that it was due to what Chris was talking about, the removal of female breasts.

There is no difference. Breasts, once they grow, are breasts. Have you not been paying attention to the science-laden videos?

I thought normally only female breasts can produce milk and the reason Chris is against it is because once female breasts are removed the person is no longer ever able to produce milk.

 

[Jarhyn]

There is no difference. Breasts, once they grow, are breasts. Have you not been paying attention to the science-laden videos?

I can't imagine a male regretting an operation to remove their breasts. But isn't what you said? I'm confused.

I am as I am, and I regret the removal of my right breast as a teen. It was removed after almost no consultation at all by a straight doctor for straight people who didn't care one bit about the seriousness of gender confirming medicine. It was my childhood doctor, in fact. It was removed for aesthetic purposes, after no pre-removal testing for benign-ness.

Pretty much any situation where "you can't imagine an X doing Y", you need to just throw away and force yourself to imagine it anyway.

So I was wondering if you still have a uniboob? Can't you just get the remaining boob removed? Also does the removed breast look ok? I mean does it look like a regular male breast?

Only just the one ever started. I just look entirely mannish, now. That's often how this goes. I could possibly take estrogen and start the other, but I really don't want to go through a year of whatever the fuck makes teenage girls scream at their mothers.

 

[Jarhyn]

Ok, gynecomastia, "enlarged male breast tissue"? I just assumed that it was due to what Chris was talking about, the removal of female breasts.

There is no difference. Breasts, once they grow, are breasts. Have you not been paying attention to the science-laden videos?

I thought normally only female breasts can produce milk and the reason Chris is against it is because once female breasts are removed the person is no longer ever able to produce milk.

Lose the "female". It's just "breasts". Everyone has breasts and some people's breasts develop. Developed breasts produce "normal" milk, under certain circumstances (usually, a hormonal signal attached to an active pregnancy).

There is no ethical argument for or against someone else's decision to have breasts, developed or not, however here is the kicker: breast removal surgeries are generally not even necessary for people afforded blockers.

Starting on "natal" hormones will cause those breasts to develop, if someone has been suppressing estrogen.

Breast removal surgeries happen when someone already has breasts and absolutely does not want them.

At that point, what business do you, or Chris, or anyone really, have in demanding they be able to produce milk. For whose baby?

You already said you couldn't imagine a situation where men would want breasts (having never watched Venture Bros, apparently... This was a majorly ridiculously real plot point where a character was given breasts and kept them because they wanted them), so obviously you can contemplate men removing developing breast tissue. I can too. It's so commonplace that the doctor just did it to me with minimal consultation. So think for a moment why these "man brains" would ever want to have breasts attached to them in the first place?

There's that fundamental assumption that people have some right to coerce someone else to remain in some reproductive regime as an active child-producer, and I reject it wholeheartedly, though.

Granted, men who want breasts could conceivably take hormones and live with that in their head for a few years until their breasts developed, too.

 

[excreationist]

You said "Don't even think of trying to censor me" but you sound like you're trying to censor me.

Last time I checked, mate, "shut the fuck up": didn't have any fucking nuance.

Mate.

I thought it was interesting that sometimes the people who are hostile to Chris can swear a lot
e.g. "Marxist feminist former university professor David Harvie"

When I watch it it makes it look like they're making themselves look bad so Chris likes to post videos of that kind of thing. I assume the apparent professor is well educated.
Like Chris I think I'm being pretty well-mannered to hostile people. But anyway I'm just being a devil's advocate for him at the moment.

Notice how Chris never initiates the conversation (at least from what I've seen and what he's said), the other people do (because of his sign).

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You said "Don't even think of trying to censor me" but you sound like you're trying to censor me.

Last time I checked, mate, "shut the fuck up": didn't have any fucking nuance.

Mate.

I thought it was interesting that sometimes the people who are hostile to Chris can swear a lot
e.g. "Marxist feminist former university professor David Harvie"

When I watch it it makes it looks like they're making themselves look bad so Chris likes to post videos of that kind of thing. I assume the apparent professor is well educated.
Like Chris I think I'm being pretty well-mannered to hostile people. But anyway I'm just being a devil's advocate for him at the moment.

Any divisive language is going to get people mad or troll them and then make them screw up on camera compared to a rehearsed guy who is probably cherry-picking video content for his political agenda.

Notice how Chris never initiates the conversation (at least from what I've seen and what he's said), the other people do (because of his sign).

Some signs are conversation starters, for example "Evolution Professors who are raping children at your university should be sent to Hell."

We might be inclined to almost agree with the sentiment but the basis for implying that it is happening enough (or at all) to have a sign about it is offensive and possibly enraging for certain people.

 

[Jarhyn]

The problem here is that while swearing outside of contexts where people are abandoning logic tends to be incorrect, swearing when someone IS abandoning logic and going full tilt on it is a natural and acceptable reaction.

Telling some daft cunt to go get fucked when they spit a PRATT or ask a Quisling or Loaded Question is entirely acceptable and normal, and a sign that someone things the other party already abandoned rational discourse.

When that happens, action needs to be reviewed to discover who abandoned rational discourse first, and it could very well be the smarmy, rehearsed orator.

 

[excreationist]

@Jarhyn
In this example the professor began the conversation with hostile swearing and refused to have any kind of normal conversation with Chris.
Edit: initially the professor asked a polite question.

Btw sometimes people accuse Chris of being hateful but that professor seems way more hateful to me.

Chris even says:

And remember, children are beautiful just as they are. No drugs or scalpels needed.

Which doesn’t sound hateful - even if it is inaccurate.

I guess a related thing is hate speech laws.

 

[excreationist]

Any divisive language is going to get people mad or troll them and then make them screw up on camera compared to a rehearsed guy who is probably cherry-picking video content for his political agenda.

Note I watched a girl(?) asking Chris to not publish footage of her conversation but he said that he didn’t need her permission because it was in a public place or something like that.