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Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

I would say coal MINING is much cleaner than fracking.
What are you basing that on?
Especially since many coal mines these days are huge open pit mines.
A coal mine in Wyoming:
Surface_coal_mine_detail_Gillette_Wyoming-2000x1287.jpg

A fracking operation in North Dakota:
lead_mdf2674779.jpg
A picture of the surface is misleading because the damge is done underground.

Dig a hole. Dig out the coal. Put it in a truck and haul it away. Leave an ugly looking hole.
Fuck up a large piece of the landscape. Distribute many tons of coal dust all over the place.

Fracking is drill numerous holes.
The sum total of all those holes has a much lower physical and ecological footprint than a mine, especially an open pit mine.

Pump dangerous toxic chemicals into those holes.
It's mostly water and not very toxic chemicals like hydrochloric acid, which is stomach acid, essentially.

Pump out the gas, haul it away. Leave the dangerous chemicals to contaminate the ground and water for decades.
Actually the fracking setup is isolated from the ground water table through casings on the bore holes. The shale deposits themselves are well below the ground water table. Coal mining waste has a much bigger chance of entering local ground water given that you are removing material from the surface, close to the aquifers.
csm_Film-Blockbild_complet2_04_f610e9e29d.png

Note also the use of horizontal wells that minimizes above-ground footprint of the operation.

I don't know where you live but we live in the real world where fracking is far from perfect.
 
Do you realize that fracking requires a particular type/size of sand? And that this sand is obtained by open pit mining? I know because I’ve seen these ‘sand mines.’
Sure, sand is used for fracking. But the place you get it from is generally called a quarry, not a mine.

And I'd certainly much rather live within 5 miles of a sand quarry and or a coal mine.
 
I did not realize you voted for Harris. I will revise my opinion and I really do hope that I do not ever forget that fact.
While I am critical of many things Kamala Harris, I realize that she was the lesser of the two weevils by some margin.

What do you have against Tim Walz?
Similar to Kamala Harris herself, he has shown poor judgment. Earlier in his life, with the DUI and such, but also in office, where for example he was instrumental in commuting the sentence of a gang member who murdered an 11 year old girl while shooting at a rival from another gang.
I certainly do NOT see Walz as interchangeable with any other white guy, or even any other white guy of a certain vintage and political experience/leanings.
Certainly the way you were talking about him suggests as much.
I understood why Harris chose Walz as her running mate and frankly, I was extremely impressed with his performance on the campaign trail, more than I had anticipated.
She chose him because he called Republicans 'weird'. Before that quip, he was nowhere in the Sweepstakes.
What exactly do you think was so impressive about his performance on the campaign trail?
The fact is that neither Harris nor Walz were perfect candidates because no such creature exists. Certainly stacked up against Trump, they were a veritable choir of angels singing on high.
Indeed.
But I am extremely cognizant of the fact that Biden entered the 2020 race mostly to oppose Trump and that he was the perfect candidate to defeat Trump: experienced older white guy with enough liberal cred to help with that wing and a deserved reputation for working across the aisle. I happen to think that Biden a) would not have run again if Trump had not thrown in his hat and b) should not have dropped out as he demonstrated that he could defeat Trump and I believe he would have done so again.
2024 was not a repeat of 2020. In 2020 Biden was much younger, even though he showed signs of age even then. What helped Biden in 2020 was that Trump was an incumbent who mishandled the Pandemic. Biden also benefited from COVID which allowed him a slower campaign schedule. I do not think Biden would have fared well with the campaign schedule though August, September and October. He simply did not have the stamina.
Dems got stuck in no-man's-land. They could not reasonably continue with Biden, but there was litte time to select and build up a replacement.
Now I do think that both Biden and Trump were too old to run for POTUS but Biden is more fit on every single measure one can name, including physical and mental fitness. It would have been far better for Biden to have defeated Trump and then resigned some point into his term, citing health reasons.
Trump certainly comes across as physically fitter and stronger. Just because he is an ass does not mean we should not acknowledge that he did have that advantage over Biden.
My opposition to fracking is not based upon emotion but upon actual evidence (some seen with my own eyes) of the damage that the practice does to the environment.
Evidence is more than anecdote of what you have seen in that geographical oddity that you call home.
And any environmental damage needs to be compared to damage from other technologies as well as benefits of being able to extract more oil and gas. We went over this before. Electric cars are still a minority of even new cars, and an even smaller minority of all the cars on the rod. Then you have power plants, industry, home heating and other uses. We will need oil and gas for several more decades to come, and we must replace declining oil fields with finding new fields (which are few and far between) or with technologies that allow us to extract these resources better. Being able to fracture rock and extract oil and gas from shale formations is one such technology.
As mentioned before: in order to frack, one must obtain a certain type of sand that is mined via strip mines, which is damaging just like strip mining for coal is damaging.
Generally, a sand "mine" is called a quarry and is not nearly as damaging as mining for coal.
Around the town I lived in Germany they had a lot of sand and gravel quarries. After they were used up, some of them were cleaned up and turned into swimming lakes. Can't do that with coal mines!
This is not emotion-based although I'm beginning to think that your love affair with fracking is emotion based.
I disagree. You see sand being quarried and you are against it for that reason. You do not see the benefits from fracking (even though you enjoy reasonably priced natural gas and gasoline) nor do you see damage from other energy technologies like coal.

Energy technologies are all about balancing costs and benefits. And benefits of fracking (½ of our oil and ⅔ of our natural gas production) are simply too big to throw away just because Kamala Harris wanted to ingratiate herself to the radical environmentalists.
The pipelines you are so enamored with in fact endanger water supplies.
Not in any meaningful sense. No technology is perfect of course, but pipelines are the best way to move large quantities of fluids over long distances from point A to point B. Which is why I am not the only one enamored with them, and why US has an extensive pipeline network, carrying oil, gas and refined products all over country.
NPMS_allPipelines_wPR_BM.jpg

If pipelines were even 1% as dangerous to the aquifers as their opponents claim, we'd long since have lost our water supplies!

The opposition ecomentalists have to pipelines despite their usefulness and safety is quite irrational and based on emotion.

I realize that this does not happen near where you live but it does happen to be an issue where I live.
There is a pipeline running just a few miles from where I live, and there is also a large terminal connected to that pipeline.
I honestly cannot remember a time in my life when I did not oppose coal mines, at least once I was aware of the fact that there were coal mines and the damage they did to the miners and to the environment.
So, you should be happy that fracking for natural gas allowed us to greatly reduce coal use.
Coal was necessary at one point, but is is far more damaging than other technologies. Therefore, efforts should be made to reduce coal use to zero as soon as possible, not only in the US, but across the world too. And that can't be done with just solar and wind.
We agree there. I am not willing to embrace increasing nuclear energy because of the potential for serious environmental harm and the danger to humans and other living things in the event of an accident.
Both are severely overstated. Nuclear energy is another issue where opposition is largely emotional.
w=10908

Nuclear has to be a part of the solution if we are serious about climate change and the environment more generally.
Look at countries by their coal use:
VCE-Global-Energy-Use_Fuel-Consumption-per-Country_July11.jpg

Note that France uses a lot of nuclear and therefore has the highest share of non-fossil primary energy and use very little coal. Germany, despite all their pretensions of being überenvironmentalists, use several times as much coal and have about half as much non-fossil share as France.
For the record, I strongly support energy conservation whenever possible, including more efficient transportation, heating, cooling, electrical needs, etc.
I do too. But the fact is, we need the megawatts too, not just "negawatts". And every way to generate energy will have environmental costs. The question is not how costly is something compared to some Platonic ideal, but rather how costly is something compared to feasible alternatives. If exiting nuclear power or natural gas fracking leads to more coal burning, then the costs will get much higher and it should not be done.
I am absolutely cognizant that all sources of energy currently in use do cause some --too much!--environmental damage.
Then please act that way!
We live in a very walkable neighborhood.
I wish I did. Atlanta area is very car-dependent except for certain neighborhoods.
 
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A picture of the surface is misleading because the damge is done underground.
Well, damage on the surface and close to the surface is what really matters here because that's where you have human, biological and hydrological activity.
I don't know where you live but we live in the real world where fracking is far from perfect.
Who claimed that it was perfect? Or that it needs to be perfect?

But on the cost-benefit balance sheet, fracking is very solidly in the black, and that's what matters.
 
Can we go back to discussing biological sex and whether or not two categories, male and female, are sufficient to cover all the possible presentations?

Toni's post here contained a link that said persons with Swyer syndrome usually have a uterus, fallopian tubes, and non-functional gonads, so that explains how Hayley Haynes could become a mother of twins despite her XY karyotype after medical intervention to "grow" her millimeter sized uterus and using donated eggs.

OTOH, the 70 year old with Persistent Mullerian duct syndrome we talked about here , who had a normally formed uterus and fallopian tube, was able to father four children without medical intervention due to his also having a normally formed testis and penis.

I think we need to accept that 'intersex' is a biological reality and stop clinging to outdated concepts of strict duality in nature.
 
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"Treated under the law without regard to skin color, race, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, country of origin" is something it's possible for everyone to get.
It might be a good ideal, but I actually don't think it's possible.

Quite specifically, it is impossible for everyone to be treated under the law without regard to sex, gender, and religion. Take out the gender bit, and we can make it work almost all the time... but you categorically cannot have reasonably equal treatment when the law allows some males to access female-specific spaces in a way that precludes those female spaces being used by anyone who is muslim or orthodox jewish.

Giving males the legal right to use women's public showers necessarily excludes muslim women from being able to use them.
 
No "Ministry of Truth" would be needed. You are obviously one of those people who believe that the government should control all aspects of people's personal lives. Misinformation in such as society would be countered by normal citizens and a responsible, ethical media.
Are you sure you're talking to the right person here?
 
Can we go back to discussing biological sex and whether or not two categories, male and female, are sufficient to cover all the possible presentations?

Toni's post here contained a link that said persons with Swyer syndrome usually have a uterus, fallopian tubes, and non-functional gonads, so that explains how Hayley Haynes could become a mother of twins despite her XY karyotype after medical intervention to "grow" her millimeter sized uterus and using donated eggs.

OTOH, the 70 year old with Persistent Mullerian duct syndrome we talked about here , who had a normally formed uterus and fallopian tube, was able to father four children without medical intervention due to his also having a normally formed testis and penis.

I think we need to accept that 'intersex' is a biological reality and stop clinging to outdated concepts of strict duality in nature.
Do we also need to accept that humans have between 46 and 47 chromosomes, and to accept that the number of chromosomes in humans is a spectrum?

Disorders of sexual development do not imply more than two sexes. They are evidence that reproduction and development sometimes go awry, but they are not new or different or actual mixed sexes. Freemartin are still cows, they're not bulls, and they're not something in between - they're still female. Sexes exist as a result of evolution, specifically as a result of the evolution of ansiogamy for reproduction.

And for the umpteenth time... stop using people's deleterious medical conditions as pawns for gender identity ideology. DSDs have nothing at all to do with gender identity, and they do not in any fashion at all support the notion that men with gender identity issues are somehow women.
 
"Treated under the law without regard to skin color, race, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, country of origin" is something it's possible for everyone to get.
It might be a good ideal, but I actually don't think it's possible.

Quite specifically, it is impossible for everyone to be treated under the law without regard to sex, gender, and religion. Take out the gender bit, and we can make it work almost all the time... but you categorically cannot have reasonably equal treatment when the law allows some males to access female-specific spaces in a way that precludes those female spaces being used by anyone who is muslim or orthodox jewish.

Giving males the legal right to use women's public showers necessarily excludes muslim women from being able to use them.
In the same way that allowing blacks to use public facilities excludes racists from using them.
 
Can we go back to discussing biological sex and whether or not two categories, male and female, are sufficient to cover all the possible presentations?

Toni's post here contained a link that said persons with Swyer syndrome usually have a uterus, fallopian tubes, and non-functional gonads, so that explains how Hayley Haynes could become a mother of twins despite her XY karyotype after medical intervention to "grow" her millimeter sized uterus and using donated eggs.

OTOH, the 70 year old with Persistent Mullerian duct syndrome we talked about here , who had a normally formed uterus and fallopian tube, was able to father four children without medical intervention due to his also having a normally formed testis and penis.

I think we need to accept that 'intersex' is a biological reality and stop clinging to outdated concepts of strict duality in nature.
Do we also need to accept that humans have between 46 and 47 chromosomes, and to accept that the number of chromosomes in humans is a spectrum?

We need to accept that while humans typically have 46 chromosomes, some people have missing or extra chromosomes resulting in an atypical karyotype.

You can call it a spectrum if you'd like. There's definitely a range of possibilities. The greater the deviation from the normal number of chromosomes the less likely that the individual will thrive, so the range is limited, but there are people with as few as 44 and others with 50 or more.

Disorders of sexual development do not imply more than two sexes. They are evidence that reproduction and development sometimes go awry, but they are not new or different or actual mixed sexes. Freemartin are still cows, they're not bulls, and they're not something in between - they're still female. Sexes exist as a result of evolution, specifically as a result of the evolution of ansiogamy for reproduction.

Yes, sexes exist.

Yes, they are the result of the evolution of reproduction in multicellular organisms.

But not every individual is unambiguously or exclusively of one sex or the other. Some people have features of both, like the father of four who had a full sized uterus complete with endometrial tissue and fallopian tube, while others lack gonads and have ambiguous, non-functional genital features.

No one is saying sex doesn't exist. No one is arguing that 'male' and 'female' are not valid categories or that they don't describe the overwhelming majority of humans.

Some folks, myself included, are saying that 'intersex' is also a valid category and that it describes the small number of human beings who have characteristics of more than just one sex, whether that be karyotype or developmental in nature.

And for the umpteenth time... stop using people's deleterious medical conditions as pawns for gender identity ideology. DSDs have nothing at all to do with gender identity, and they do not in any fashion at all support the notion that men with gender identity issues are somehow women.
I don't use it that way so stop accusing me of doing it.

Sex and gender are two different things. 'Intersex' does not mean or imply 'intergender'.

And I don't use people like Dana Zzyym as pawns. They themselves are advocates for persons with intersex conditions. They want people to understand that performing multiple surgeries on babies and children in order to make them physically conform to the 'either male or female' social norm is a violation of that child's human rights to bodily integrity and right to self determination.
 
In the same way that allowing blacks to use public facilities excludes racists from using them.
I hate this stupid trope. It's nothing like racism.

Refusing to provide a race specific restroom doesn't keep racists from using the restroom. It just means that they don't have special rights.
Tom
 
In the same way that allowing blacks to use public facilities excludes racists from using them.
I hate this stupid trope. It's nothing like racism.

Refusing to provide a race specific restroom doesn't keep racists from using the restroom. It just means that they don't have special rights.
Tom
Just like giving men legal rights to use a woman's rest room does not exclude any woman from using the room.
 
What exactly are you arguing here? That some people in the past were misogynists and favored discrimination against women; Derec is a misogynist; therefore Derec favors discrimination against women? That's a guilt-by-association argument.
If the shoe fits...

So Derec has negative attitudes about women. Do you think that implies he wants the government to discriminate against them? You have negative attitudes about Derec. Do you want the government to discriminate against him?
If he was going to apply for a job running a program for women, damn skippy I would.
 
In the same way that allowing blacks to use public facilities excludes racists from using them.
I hate this stupid trope. It's nothing like racism.

Refusing to provide a race specific restroom doesn't keep racists from using the restroom. It just means that they don't have special rights.
Tom
Just like giving men legal rights to use a woman's rest room does not exclude any woman from using the room.
Bullshit.
There's a restroom for everyone, side by side, and nearly identical. What you are describing is giving men the right to upset women by barging in to women's spaces.

It is real darned patriarchal. And it completely ignores the fact that men are a much bigger security threat to women than vice versa. It's giving special rights to men, as usual.
Tom
 
"Treated under the law without regard to skin color, race, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, country of origin" is something it's possible for everyone to get.
It might be a good ideal, but I actually don't think it's possible.

Quite specifically, it is impossible for everyone to be treated under the law without regard to sex, gender, and religion. Take out the gender bit, and we can make it work almost all the time... but you categorically cannot have reasonably equal treatment when the law allows some males to access female-specific spaces in a way that precludes those female spaces being used by anyone who is muslim or orthodox jewish.

Giving males the legal right to use women's public showers necessarily excludes muslim women from being able to use them.
No, it doesn't. If they CHOOSE not to use them based on their personal religious doctrine that is their right. But no law prevents them from using a shower or restroom.
 
Can we go back to discussing biological sex and whether or not two categories, male and female, are sufficient to cover all the possible presentations?

Toni's post here contained a link that said persons with Swyer syndrome usually have a uterus, fallopian tubes, and non-functional gonads, so that explains how Hayley Haynes could become a mother of twins despite her XY karyotype after medical intervention to "grow" her millimeter sized uterus and using donated eggs.

OTOH, the 70 year old with Persistent Mullerian duct syndrome we talked about here , who had a normally formed uterus and fallopian tube, was able to father four children without medical intervention due to his also having a normally formed testis and penis.

I think we need to accept that 'intersex' is a biological reality and stop clinging to outdated concepts of strict duality in nature.
Do we also need to accept that humans have between 46 and 47 chromosomes, and to accept that the number of chromosomes in humans is a spectrum?

Disorders of sexual development do not imply more than two sexes. They are evidence that reproduction and development sometimes go awry, but they are not new or different or actual mixed sexes. Freemartin are still cows, they're not bulls, and they're not something in between - they're still female. Sexes exist as a result of evolution, specifically as a result of the evolution of ansiogamy for reproduction.

And for the umpteenth time... stop using people's deleterious medical conditions as pawns for gender identity ideology. DSDs have nothing at all to do with gender identity, and they do not in any fashion at all support the notion that men with gender identity issues are somehow women.
As soon as you stop making 'gender' about biological features, sure. Gender, is a spectrum - always has been and cannot be placed in strictly two categories based on a persons' genitalia.
 
In the same way that allowing blacks to use public facilities excludes racists from using them.
I hate this stupid trope. It's nothing like racism.

Refusing to provide a race specific restroom doesn't keep racists from using the restroom. It just means that they don't have special rights.
Tom
Just like giving men legal rights to use a woman's rest room does not exclude any woman from using the room.
Bullshit.
There's a restroom for everyone, side by side, and nearly identical. What you are describing is giving men the right to upset women by barging in to women's spaces.

It is real darned patriarchal. And it completely ignores the fact that men are a much bigger security threat to women than vice versa. It's giving special rights to men, as usual.
Tom
transgendered women are not men, so that's really not an issue, is it?
 
"Treated under the law without regard to skin color, race, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, country of origin" is something it's possible for everyone to get.
It might be a good ideal, but I actually don't think it's possible.

Quite specifically, it is impossible for everyone to be treated under the law without regard to sex, gender, and religion. Take out the gender bit, and we can make it work almost all the time... but you categorically cannot have reasonably equal treatment when the law allows some males to access female-specific spaces in a way that precludes those female spaces being used by anyone who is muslim or orthodox jewish.

Giving males the legal right to use women's public showers necessarily excludes muslim women from being able to use them.
In the same way that allowing blacks to use public facilities excludes racists from using them.
Not to mention that she is doing an incredibly dishonest and deceptive thing in stating this.

If she does not apologize and stop using this format of claim, there are a set of words which apply to her which I am not allowed to even name because of "DeCoRuM".

It is a straw man. It is bullshit.

It is not "males", it is specifically trans-non-masculine individuals, and JUST like on the stupid fucking abortion threads, she's championing a deontological rule held for purely emotional reasons YET AGAIN over the well-being of everyone.

I yet again refuse to believe women have anything lacking in their ability to look at their emotions and be the masters of them rather than letting their emotions to always rule them. This means expecting the maturity to actually look at the statistics that have been collected to address the existence and scope of a problem, and when those statistics say it is not, to quit acting as if it is a problem.

Biology is the science of exceptions.

Normals and median representatives are not "real" or "functional" instantiated things, for all they are concepts discovered from metadata about real things.

These things, like the law (@bilby made a fantastic post about this BTW, back on page 1), do not actually inform what the normal ought be. They define a status quo, where we are now, when nothing can ever really stay what it is for long, nor should it seek to.

It is an "is" rather than an "ought" and I find it so stupid and droll that this has to be mentioned so often, that there is no bridge from this "is" to any "ought".

This whole fucking topic is so goddamn fucking stupid.

If you REALLY want to discover some "reproductive classes" according to rules of math and science, the only way I know how to do this is through "reproductive theoretic classes" after defining some exclusions of process (such as using anything composed of plastic, or traveling more than a million miles in a single direction or moving too far in time to make contact):

1. Pick one thing in space and time which you wish to call "human female".

2. Select all individuals which "reproduce" successfully within some number of attempts N with this individual within the process definition across space and time (hypothetically, by stopping the 'simulation' and doing debug environment testing). Label this group "human males".

3. Repeat step 2, except exchanging the representative "human female", with "human males", to discover "human females".

4. Repeat step 2 and 3, D times, or until a specific individual has been included ("let's call her 'Eve'")

This will select a set of human females, with respect to a reference human female, at a specific N value, through inclusion of a reference Eve.

All offspring of any qualifying process are then added to the group of all humans.

What is absolutely certain biologically is that some people will be "humans" but members of neither "females" nor "males".

What is also absolutely certain is that some rare individuals will be members of BOTH groups; in fact selection rules have to be carefully crafted to add process participation to keep the groups from hitting a singularity in terms of how the offspring is gestated.

That is a "real" definition of "female" through to semantic completion, given known references and bounds. It is still relative to the references and to the process definition.

This definition has exactly one thing it can be used for: concerns arising specifically from the ability to impregnate and vulnerability to impregnation, and the maintenance of those functions.

Its amazing though that exactly ZERO of the people here who have claimed there is a biological reality behind sex actually understand the reality that is, before now.

It doesn't say anything important or special or necessary about what people ought be. It doesn't say that people ought be male or female or both or neither, nor does it look at some of the really bizarre class members you would be handling, especially from the members of the "both" and "neither" groups.
 
transgendered women are not men, so that's really not an issue, is it?
Trans women are still male, that's where the problem is. Males are disproportionately threatening to females, whether or not trans ideologists recognize that fact.

Ya know what else? Most males who put some effort into presenting as a woman, then behaves properly in the restroom, isn't going to have a problem. Close shave, women's attire, do your business, keep your eyes to yourself, wash your hands and leave, and you probably won't have any trouble at all.
Tom
 
In the same way that allowing blacks to use public facilities excludes racists from using them.
I hate this stupid trope. It's nothing like racism.

Refusing to provide a race specific restroom doesn't keep racists from using the restroom. It just means that they don't have special rights.
Tom
Just like giving men legal rights to use a woman's rest room does not exclude any woman from using the room.
Bullshit.
There's a restroom for everyone, side by side, and nearly identical. What you are describing is giving men the right to upset women by barging in to women's spaces.

It is real darned patriarchal. And it completely ignores the fact that men are a much bigger security threat to women than vice versa. It's giving special rights to men, as usual.
Tom
Whether giving men legal rights to use women’s restrooms is wise or granting special rights are completely different issues than whether doing so excludes women from using those facilities. .

Nothing you wrote rebuts that giving men legal rights to use women’s restrooms excludes women from using them. Perhaps the problem is that you don’t understand that excludes means to deny access.
 
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