Austria bans foreign donations for Mosques, requires Imams to speak German

[Axulus]

The right wing backlash against the Islamism threat continues, unfortunately harms non-Islamist Muslims as well:

[Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz] told the BBC the reforms were a “milestone” for Austria and aimed to stop certain Muslim countries using financial means to exert “political influence.” “What we want is to reduce the political influence and control from abroad and we want to give Islam the chance to develop freely within our society and in line with our common European values,” he said.

...

Imams will be obliged to be able to speak German under the law. “We want a future in which increasing numbers of imams have grown up in Austria speaking German, and can in that way serve as positive examples for young Muslims,” Kurz explained.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...an/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

The specific targeting of Mosques and Imams and not putting in the same restrictions on other faiths, such as Christians and Jews, is worrying. The Islamist extremism is breeding support for right wing extremism. Where are the moderate voices to fill the vacuum in Europe? While some may talk about the polarization of US society, what is happening in Europe is truly scary.

 

[barbos]

What is trully scary is the fact that Austrian foreign minister is 28 years old and still a student

 

[dismal]

Before Muslims get on their high horse about this they should remember this is probably blowback from the Siege of Vienna.

 

[Derec]

I do not see how these restrictions are bad, given the geopolitical situation. Remember the two teenage Muslim girls from Vienna who went to join IS? They were radicalized by a local Muslim preacher which explains the eagerness of the Austrian government to regulate them to a certain extent.

Also ÖVP (Österreichische Volkspartei - Austrian People's Party) to which Kurz belongs is not a far right extremist party but a mainstream conservative party similar to C?U in Germany (Angela Merkel's party). They are also in a grand coalition government led by the social democratic SPÖ (Sozialdemokratische Partei Österreichs).

In the big picture, I think EU countries made a mistake in allowing a large number of Muslims to immigrate, compared to other immigrants they allowed, as Muslims proved to be much less willing to integrate.

 

[Axulus]

I do not see how these restrictions are bad, given the geopolitical situation. Remember the two teenage Muslim girls from Vienna who went to join IS? They were radicalized by a local Muslim preacher which explains the eagerness of the Austrian government to regulate them to a certain extent.

Also ÖVP (Österreichische Volkspartei - Austrian People's Party) to which Kurz belongs is not a far right extremist party but a mainstream conservative party similar to C?U in Germany (Angela Merkel's party). They are also in a grand coalition government led by the social democratic SPÖ (Sozialdemokratische Partei Österreichs).

In the big picture, I think EU countries made a mistake in allowing a large number of Muslims to immigrate, compared to other immigrants they allowed, as Muslims proved to be much less willing to integrate.

I always suspected you didn't believe in equality before the law. Now you've made it explicit. You also seem to waver on freedom of speech. "Freedom of speech, but not for an Islamist Imam".

Finally, this law is really just a reactionary measure. I'm not aware of any scientific or academic analysis that it will do anything productive to reduce or combat extremism. If anything, it might fuel it further.

This law is just another sign that extremism is alive and well in Europe, and getting worse. From right wing reactionary measures, to right wing extremist parties winning lots of seats, to the growing number of Islamists (who are also conservative extremists), to the large increases in anti-semitism and hate crimes, to the poor economic prospects, to Russian destabilization of Eastern Europe, the future of Europe is looking quite dim at the moment.

 

[Axulus]

Some positive steps that Austria could of taken instead:

Defund government support for private religious schools and teachers and of religious instruction in public schools.

Fund radicalization prevention and deradicalization efforts.

Work with non-Islamist Muslim community leaders in these efforts - help them in efforts to promote a non-Islamist alternative to Muslims and arm them to provide counter narratives from the falsehoods and half-truths that are prevalent among Muslims and contribute to them going down the Islamist and anti-Western path.

Make it clear that there is no compromise to human rights and freedom of speech. You do not have a right to not be offended in our society. Provide education on the role that sattire plays in a free society. Make it clear that Islamism - trying to impose Islam on Austria, is anti-Austrian and anti-Western values. Make it clear that trying to impose any religion on society falls under the same category. At the same time, reenforce that everyone has the right to privately practice whichever faith they desire, and that no one should be harassed or discriminated against for doing so, and that doing so is also anti-Austrian and anti-Western.

Implement reinforcement efforts to educate children in all public schools why liberal democratic values are the best values humanity has been able to come up with yet in this point in history. Demonstrate how such values are superior to illiberal values such as theocracy, restrictions on speech, inequality before the law, dictatorship, etc. Demonstrate how such illiberal values can lead to oppression of minorities and far more political instability, violations of human rights, lower quality of life and lower levels of human development, corruption, inability for any meaningful political opposition to form, economic stagnation and/or regression, etc.

Remove hate speech laws and holocaust denial laws to reenforce that freedom of speech is paramount and that there are no special groups that get singled out for special protections against offense.

Promise efforts to crack down on anti-Muslim and anti-semetic crimes and work with leaders in both groups on programs to help reduce the number of incidents.

 

[Clivedurdle]

Remember most mosque funding is from Saudi Arabia and is of a clear wahhabist flavour. Is this actually quite reasonable? It is funding from another country

 

[Axulus]

Remember most mosque funding is from Saudi Arabia and is of a clear wahhabist flavour. Is this actually quite reasonable? It is funding from another country

I'm not convinced banning foreign funding is the right move. I haven't looked into the pros and cons that much, so I could be persuaded. Regardless, the singling out of Mosques rather than banning foreign funding for all non-profit and religious organizations, if that is the right route to take, is unfortunate and discriminatory.

 

[Clivedurdle]

Have you ever seen two local mosques, one saudi funded the other not?

 

[Axulus]

Have you ever seen two local mosques, one saudi funded the other not?

I'm not sure what point you are getting at here. Either all foreign funds should be banned for all organizations or they shouldn't. Viewpoint discrimination is anti-freedom of speech and illiberal. It amounts to government censorship of what it considers dangerous ideas.

The way to combat dangerous ideas is with speech and education countering them. Not to try to choke them off with government restriction and quasi-censorship. That will just drive such ideas underground (such as on the internet), where it is far more difficult to counter them, compared to them being out in the open.

 

[Warpoet]

Remember most mosque funding is from Saudi Arabia and is of a clear wahhabist flavour.

Source, please.

Is this actually quite reasonable?

No.

It is funding from another country

Then ban all foreign funding for all religious organizations, not just the Muslim ones. Otherwise it is a clear-cut case of discrimination. Moreover, the law goes well beyond the funding issue. By forcing Imams to speak German, and to use German translations of the Qur'an, so that they "can in that way serve as positive examples for young Muslims," the government is trying to impose its own culture and its own morals on an entire group of people and stripping them of their right to shape those things on their own.

This is a clear and egregious violation of the right to free speech and the very principles of a free democracy. Anyone who supports this legislation is an opponent of liberal values, not a champion of it, and should be ashamed.

 

[Warpoet]

Oh, and there's this as well:

[The law] also requires the nearly 450 Muslim organisations in the country to demonstrate a “positive approach towards society and the state” in order to continue receiving official licensing.

Disgraceful.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Oh, and there's this as well:

[The law] also requires the nearly 450 Muslim organisations in the country to demonstrate a “positive approach towards society and the state” in order to continue receiving official licensing.

Disgraceful.

Yes, it is intolerably non-specific. If one mosque thinks that Muslims should just keep to themselves and not bother anybody, that neutral attitude towards society denies them licensing but the mosque next door to them which feels that there would be a vast positive improvement to society if all non-Muslims were a head shorter gets a license.

Unlike the people in the Austrian government, I'm against millions of Austrians getting beheaded. I guess I'm just a better person than they are.

 

[laughing dog]

The right wing backlash against the Islamism threat continues, unfortunately harms non-Islamist Muslims as well:

[Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz] told the BBC the reforms were a “milestone” for Austria and aimed to stop certain Muslim countries using financial means to exert “political influence.” “What we want is to reduce the political influence and control from abroad and we want to give Islam the chance to develop freely within our society and in line with our common European values,” he said.

...

Imams will be obliged to be able to speak German under the law. “We want a future in which increasing numbers of imams have grown up in Austria speaking German, and can in that way serve as positive examples for young Muslims,” Kurz explained.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...an/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

The specific targeting of Mosques and Imams and not putting in the same restrictions on other faiths, such as Christians and Jews, is worrying. The Islamist extremism is breeding support for right wing extremism. Where are the moderate voices to fill the vacuum in Europe? While some may talk about the polarization of US society, what is happening in Europe is truly scary.

Please do not confuse Europe with Austria. Remember, Austrians were good and willing Nazis as a rule. And it wasn't that long ago, when  Jörg_Haider was its leader.

 

[Jayjay]

I think the measures are reasonable. Austria has Islam as an official religion, and that position comes with strings attached. If some mosque finds these strings to be intolerable, they can always opt out... the outliers just can't pretend to represent Islam in Austria anymore. I am not sure how much of a stigma that is but I presume there is still freedom of religion in Austria for non-official religions as well.

My only concern is that if I read the BBC article correctly, most muslims in Austria are migrant workers from Turkey, and a lot of the funding for their mosques come from Turkey. Isn't there a risk that Turkish congregations opt out to protest and to continue to receive funding, which would leave the "official" Austrian Islam in a minority and ineffective in achieving the goal of moderating islamism?

 

[Axulus]

I think the measures are reasonable. Austria has Islam as an official religion, and that position comes with strings attached. If some mosque finds these strings to be intolerable, they can always opt out... the outliers just can't pretend to represent Islam in Austria anymore. I am not sure how much of a stigma that is but I presume there is still freedom of religion in Austria for non-official religions as well.

My only concern is that if I read the BBC article correctly, most muslims in Austria are migrant workers from Turkey, and a lot of the funding for their mosques come from Turkey. Isn't there a risk that Turkish congregations opt out to protest and to continue to receive funding, which would leave the "official" Austrian Islam in a minority and ineffective in achieving the goal of moderating islamism?

If there are to be strings attached, then why not attach those strings to _all_ the officially recognized religions? It's basic discrimination to attach those strings only to one in particular.

 

[Clivedurdle]

From 2010

he Norwegian foreign minister, Jonas Gahr Støre, will not allow Saudi Arabia to finance or build any mosques in Norway because of the laws in Saudi Arabia that deny basic religious freedoms. This also includes money from Saudi citizens. - See more at: http://pamelageller.com/2010/10/for...-mosques-in-norway.html/#sthash.vNo64iJ5.dpuf

 

[Warpoet]

If there are to be strings attached, then why not attach those strings to _all_ the officially recognized religions? It's basic discrimination to attach those strings only to one in particular.

That this needs to be explained on a forum populated by "liberals" who claim to be rational thinkers is just beyond words.

 

[Warpoet]

From 2010

he Norwegian foreign minister, Jonas Gahr Støre, will not allow Saudi Arabia to finance or build any mosques in Norway because of the laws in Saudi Arabia that deny basic religious freedoms. This also includes money from Saudi citizens. - See more at: http://pamelageller.com/2010/10/for...-mosques-in-norway.html/#sthash.vNo64iJ5.dpuf

What is the point of your posting this? To show that other European countries have enacted anti-democratic policies rooted in xenophobia?

 

[Jayjay]

I think the measures are reasonable. Austria has Islam as an official religion, and that position comes with strings attached. If some mosque finds these strings to be intolerable, they can always opt out... the outliers just can't pretend to represent Islam in Austria anymore. I am not sure how much of a stigma that is but I presume there is still freedom of religion in Austria for non-official religions as well.

My only concern is that if I read the BBC article correctly, most muslims in Austria are migrant workers from Turkey, and a lot of the funding for their mosques come from Turkey. Isn't there a risk that Turkish congregations opt out to protest and to continue to receive funding, which would leave the "official" Austrian Islam in a minority and ineffective in achieving the goal of moderating islamism?

If there are to be strings attached, then why not attach those strings to _all_ the officially recognized religions? It's basic discrimination to attach those strings only to one in particular.

Indeed, maybe they should have.