Net Neutrailty is back

[Jimmy Higgins]

You aren't referencing the overly overbuilt fiber network that the Fiber companies like Level III, T Cubed, Williams, etc... built, are you?

I'm thinking its because stockholders wanted to cut back development and put profits in their pockets because the superhighway wasn't the Y2K bonanza they had imagined. Stockholders are such brakes to infrastructure.

Or that the grid was way overbuilt in the 90s. Granted, that gives a good deal of space for expansion. That is why people across the nation aren't having trouble with Netflix, and only with specific ISPs who are fucking the line that Netflix is coming over on, once on their local ISP network.

Except it's more than just fiber. The speeds of cable modems are influenced by the number of people using that particular line at the same time.

Except no one noticed the congestion ever... it took the throttling of the lines by the ISP themselves for people to notice anything was wrong... and what was wrong was that the ISP was throttling the Netflix data.

How do you know no one ever experienced the congestion? Were you working at Comcast support at the time?

Because articles didn't start popping up on the Internet asking why Netflix had slowed down until after the throttling. This implies a couple things... one that people notice when the quality drops and that the quality drop wasn't noticed until the ISP purposefully dropped the quality

 

[ksen]

Congestion where and at which time?

Man, if only someone had taken the time to dig up links and post them here with this information already laid out in them.

We are talking two seperate issues here, one the day to day operations and one for the Netflix issue a while ago.

Man, if only someone had taken the time to dig up links and post them here with this information already laid out in them.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

How do you know no one ever experienced the congestion? Were you working at Comcast support at the time?.

 

[ksen]

The beep-boop is strong in this thread.

 

[coloradoatheist]

You aren't referencing the overly overbuilt fiber network that the Fiber companies like Level III, T Cubed, Williams, etc... built, are you?

I'm thinking its because stockholders wanted to cut back development and put profits in their pockets because the superhighway wasn't the Y2K bonanza they had imagined. Stockholders are such brakes to infrastructure.

Or that the grid was way overbuilt in the 90s. Granted, that gives a good deal of space for expansion. That is why people across the nation aren't having trouble with Netflix, and only with specific ISPs who are fucking the line that Netflix is coming over on, once on their local ISP network.

Except it's more than just fiber. The speeds of cable modems are influenced by the number of people using that particular line at the same time.

Except no one noticed the congestion ever... it took the throttling of the lines by the ISP themselves for people to notice anything was wrong... and what was wrong was that the ISP was throttling the Netflix data.

How do you know no one ever experienced the congestion? Were you working at Comcast support at the time?

Because articles didn't start popping up on the Internet asking why Netflix had slowed down until after the throttling. This implies a couple things... one that people notice when the quality drops and that the quality drop wasn't noticed until the ISP purposefully dropped the quality

And you can say with 100% certainty that the ever increasing traffic from Netflix had no impact on Comcast and other providers providing their other services on their network and there was no increased complaints from their business or residential customers?

 

[ksen]

yes

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The beep-boop is strong in this thread.

I don't think Comcast even made this hard of a case for themselves.

You aren't referencing the overly overbuilt fiber network that the Fiber companies like Level III, T Cubed, Williams, etc... built, are you?

I'm thinking its because stockholders wanted to cut back development and put profits in their pockets because the superhighway wasn't the Y2K bonanza they had imagined. Stockholders are such brakes to infrastructure.

Or that the grid was way overbuilt in the 90s. Granted, that gives a good deal of space for expansion. That is why people across the nation aren't having trouble with Netflix, and only with specific ISPs who are fucking the line that Netflix is coming over on, once on their local ISP network.

Except it's more than just fiber. The speeds of cable modems are influenced by the number of people using that particular line at the same time.

Except no one noticed the congestion ever... it took the throttling of the lines by the ISP themselves for people to notice anything was wrong... and what was wrong was that the ISP was throttling the Netflix data.

How do you know no one ever experienced the congestion? Were you working at Comcast support at the time?

Because articles didn't start popping up on the Internet asking why Netflix had slowed down until after the throttling. This implies a couple things... one that people notice when the quality drops and that the quality drop wasn't noticed until the ISP purposefully dropped the quality

And you can say with 100% certainty that the ever increasing traffic from Netflix had no impact on Comcast and other providers providing their other services on their network and there was no increased complaints from their business or residential customers?

So your argument has gone from trying to support your position to forcing the opposition to disprove a negative. Understood. So it is now our job to prove that emails didn't exist.

 

[coloradoatheist]

yes

So you worked at Comcast at the time and have the emails from the management to the engineers telling them to put in rate limiters to Netflix?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

yes

So you worked at Comcast at the time and have the emails from the management to the engineers telling them to put in rate limiters to Netflix?

Did you even bother to read the links?

 

[ksen]

yes

So you worked at Comcast at the time and have the emails from the management to the engineers telling them to put in rate limiters to Netflix?

lol

- - - Updated - - -

So you worked at Comcast at the time and have the emails from the management to the engineers telling them to put in rate limiters to Netflix?

Did you even bother to read the links?

What? Why would he do that? I mean it's not as if they addressed exactly his arguments and questions.

 

[coloradoatheist]

So you worked at Comcast at the time and have the emails from the management to the engineers telling them to put in rate limiters to Netflix?

Did you even bother to read the links?

I did. And there were links that Netflix was choosing congested peers to try and push Comcast. So we had two big companies trying to push things around. And guess what, they found a solution without governnment intervention.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Did you even bother to read the links?

I did. And there were links that Netflix was choosing congested peers to try and push Comcast. So we had two big companies trying to push things around. And guess what, they found a solution without governnment intervention.

I can see you didn't.

Do you know what Net Neutrality actually is?

 

[ksen]

Did you even bother to read the links?

I did. And there were links that Netflix was choosing congested peers to try and push Comcast. So we had two big companies trying to push things around. And guess what, they found a solution without governnment intervention.

Yeah, you didn't read the links because the Netflix/Cogent issue was directly addressed by the M-Labs report.

eta: wait, you may have read the links, i.e. the highlighted and underlined words, but you certainly didn't click through to read the reports.

 

[fromderinside]

I did. And there were links that Netflix was choosing congested peers to try and push Comcast. So we had two big companies trying to push things around. And guess what, they found a solution without governnment intervention.

Yeah, you didn't read the links because the Netflix/Cogent issue was directly addressed by the M-Labs report.

eta: wait, you may have read the links, i.e. the highlighted and underlined words, but you certainly didn't click through to read the reports.

Why do we have link tools here? We're falling below the Palin again.

 

[Nexus]

Ksen we don't need your stinking links. Coloradoatheist has decisively shown that you have never worked for the ISP's. And his assurances they acted out of necessity is enough to convince us even without evidence.

 

[fromderinside]

Yes Lord

What's evidence?/Newhart

 

[coloradoatheist]

I did. And there were links that Netflix was choosing congested peers to try and push Comcast. So we had two big companies trying to push things around. And guess what, they found a solution without governnment intervention.

Yeah, you didn't read the links because the Netflix/Cogent issue was directly addressed by the M-Labs report.

eta: wait, you may have read the links, i.e. the highlighted and underlined words, but you certainly didn't click through to read the reports.

You linked to a report that Cogent admitted congestion issues so they put in QoS measures to seperate traffic between their wholesale and retail customers. So if there is never any congestion, why did Cogent do that?

 

[ksen]

Yeah, you didn't read the links because the Netflix/Cogent issue was directly addressed by the M-Labs report.

eta: wait, you may have read the links, i.e. the highlighted and underlined words, but you certainly didn't click through to read the reports.

You linked to a report that Cogent admitted congestion issues so they put in QoS measures to seperate traffic between their wholesale and retail customers. So if there is never any congestion, why did Cogent do that?

No, try again.

Study Finds Internet Congestion Really Is About Business, Not Technology

M-Lab sat down and did a long-term study measuring how internet traffic moves through all those different transit tributaries, so to speak. The full report (a href=”http://www.measurementlab.net/static/observatory/M-Lab_Interconnection_Study_US.pdf”>PDF) delves into some of the technicalities of measuring and quantifying interconnection and is kind of a hefty read. There are, however, some clear key take-aways.

From a high level, you see some of the patterns you’d expect. For example, there’s a lot less network congestion at 3 o’clock in the morning then there is at prime-time, between 7 and 11 p.m.

But beyond that, one pattern began clearly to emerge. The network congestion M-Lab was seeing, they write, doesn’t appear to be connected to the technical limitations of ISPs or the connection points themselves. Instead, it seems, “business relationships between ISPs, and not major technical problems, are at the root of the problems we observed.”

There is no technical reason for congestion.

And here's more from the above article:

But the evidence does look worse for some companies than for others. M-Lab used New York City as one of their case studies. They found that in 2013, internet traffic delivered to Verizon, Time Warner Cable, and Comcast via Cogent took a dramatic hit before rebounding equally dramatically roughly 10 months later:

via the Measurement Lab Interconnection Study

Since all three ISPs took a hit at roughly the same time, it seems easy to look for a common link. In this case, that link would be Cogent. Perhaps the trouble was on their end, instead of at three different companies?

Not so, says M-Lab. The next graph demonstrates that during the same period of time, in the same city, Cablevision’s traffic through Cogent moved smoothly and quickly without taking the same precipitous plunge as the other three providers’.

So that says Cogent was up and running. So perhaps TWC, Comcast, and Verizon all suffered a freak simultaneous set of outages? M-Lab couldn’t rule that out, but they also measured the connections all four last-mile ISPs had to another transit provider, Internap, during the same time period. Those connections did not see any significant degradation.

And this directly from the Interconnection Study linked to under the above graph:

Using Measurement Lab (M-Lab) data, and constraining our research to the United States, we observed sustained performance degradation experienced by customers of Access ISPs AT&T, Comcast, Centurylink, Time Warner Cable, and Verizon when their traffic passed over interconnections with Transit ISPs Cogent Communications (Cogent), Level 3 Communications (Level 3), and XO Communications (XO). In a large number of cases we observed similar patterns of performance degradation whenever and wherever specific pairs of Access/Transit ISPs interconnected. From this we conclude that ISP interconnection has a substantial impact on consumer internet performance -- sometimes a severely negative impact -- and that business relationships between ISPs, and not major technical problems, are at the root of the problems we observed.

So, did Cogent have congestion issues? Yes.

But were those congestion issues due to technicial limitations of the network? No.

It was an artificial congestion created by the ISPs because of business disputes, i.e. the ISPs were not satisfied just getting paid by their customers but as part of their entitlement mentality that controlling content access is also what they should be doing they wanted to also get paid by certain content providers (Netflix) in order to relieve the congestion that they themselves created.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It was an artificial congestion created by the ISPs because of business disputes, i.e. the ISPs were not satisfied just getting paid by their customers but as part of their entitlement mentality that controlling content access is also what they should be doing they wanted to also get paid by certain content providers (Netflix) in order to relieve the congestion that they themselves created.

I don't follow here. If there is a spat between an ISP and Cogent, what does that have to do with an ISP milking Netflix?

 

[coloradoatheist]

No, try again.

Actually there is to parts. internal congestion and peer to peer congestion. You said that there is never congestion anywhere and I said, yes, there is always internal congestion and it's a battle ISPs face and decisions they make on how to control it. Cogent decided at that time to put prioritization on the network.

Study Finds Internet Congestion Really Is About Business, Not Technology

I do agree with you partially. Cogent and Comcast decide to have a peering agreement and create a connection between them. They then make the decision on who has to pay what for that circuit and how much. Comcast said that Cogent needed to pay more and Cogent said no.