"God cannot create a square circle"

[Bronzeage]

God is a poor engineer to be putting a playground so close to the sewage system.

You are invited to submit revisions, along with cost estimates for updating our plumbing fixtures.

 

[Keith&Co.]

God is a poor engineer to be putting a playground so close to the sewage system.

You are invited to submit revisions, along with cost estimates for updating our plumbing fixtures.

I'd love a redesign, but on my budget it's just more feasible to develop some unsavory fetishes...

 

[Juma]

GenesisNemesis;
most importantly, feed a multitude of people with five loaves of bread and two fish. That's pretty much saying 2+2=5, which would pretty much be just like creating a "square circle".

What would be the greater sign to five thousand hungry people? Being fed by five loaves and two fish, or being presented with a square circle, if that is possible?

Square circle.

 

[rhutchin]

The 'sense' of miracle includes magic. It's not just an observation of ignorance but a claim of divine action. Not useful in this instance.

I think magic follows physical laws. Magic acts use things like illusion to make something seem other than it is, or something like that.

No, it doesn't explain these things. It attributes life and the universe and evil to a deity. It does not explain how he came to be, nor how he accomplished the tasks of creation.

Apparently not enough explanation to suit you. OK.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think magic follows physical laws. Magic acts use things like illusion to make something seem other than it is, or something like that.

Well, obviously. If magic exists, there is a set of laws which govern how it works, regardless of whether or not we're currently aware of those laws. Likely it has to do with manipulation of Dark Energy.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I think magic follows physical laws. Magic acts use things like illusion to make something seem other than it is, or something like that.

Yeah, 'miracle' is comparable to distraction and false bottoms in the disappearing box. Stage magic does follow physical laws, because it's only an illusion that the woman was sawn in half or the guy produced a quarter out of thin air.

Iit would be interesting to see the peer reviewed paper on how sitting in the audience watching a guy make the Statue of Liberty disappear on live television leads to repeatable observations on how the universe was created, but right now i think you're just mixing apples and top hats.

No, it doesn't explain these things. It attributes life and the universe and evil to a deity. It does not explain how he came to be, nor how he accomplished the tasks of creation.

Apparently not enough explanation to suit you.

Enough explanation? What explanation? 'Goddidit' isn't explaining anything. it's an IOU for an explanation.
The only way it would have any value in the discussion would be between two people who have the exact same concepts and observations of what God is and does.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Most obviously. The issue is, what is meant by omnipotent. If we follow Descarte's and Okham's claim, God creates the rules of the Universe, the very logic of the Universe, this logically fails. A perfectly good creator God could have any state of affairs he desires.
A world without evil. We don't have that world, said God does not exist. Naturalism does. Once we admit that, it is like evolution, evolution needs no God, neither does naturalism. Is it that hard to grasp? Naturalism does the heavy lifting.

 

[rhutchin]

...evolution needs no God, neither does naturalism. Is it that hard to grasp? Naturalism does the heavy lifting.

Naturalism cannot create the universe nor can it create life. Evolution would have nothing to work with.

 

[rhutchin]

Yeah, 'miracle' is comparable to distraction and false bottoms in the disappearing box.

Actually, a miracle is the manifestation of an event that could not come about through natural law. It is not distraction. When Jesus turned water into wine, that which was water actually was turned into wine, and this required only seconds to accomplish - an outcome not possible under natural law.

 

[rhutchin]

I think magic follows physical laws. Magic acts use things like illusion to make something seem other than it is, or something like that.

Well, obviously. If magic exists, there is a set of laws which govern how it works,...

Yes, whereas a miracle is not governed by natural laws. That's the distinction between the two.

Magic is one thing; a miracle is something altogether different.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yeah, 'miracle' is comparable to distraction and false bottoms in the disappearing box.

Actually, a miracle is the manifestation of an event that could not come about through natural law. It is not distraction.

It is a distraction if you're conflating miracle and mystery, creationism and stage magic.

When Jesus turned water into wine, that which was water actually was turned into wine, and this required only seconds to accomplish - an outcome not possible under natural law.

Sure. And when Yoda fought Dooku, those jumps would have been flat impossible if Frank Oz still had a hand up Yoda's ass. Therefore we can conclude Yoda is a real, living being. Or at least he was, long ago, on a planet far, far away.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think magic follows physical laws. Magic acts use things like illusion to make something seem other than it is, or something like that.

Well, obviously. If magic exists, there is a set of laws which govern how it works,...

Yes, whereas a miracle is not governed by natural laws. That's the distinction between the two.

Magic is one thing; a miracle is something altogether different.

No, they're exactly the same. If God does something to affect the universe, there is some process by which he does so. That process is part of the way that the universe works. Even if it's a backdoor that he built into the programming so that he could hack into the system when he wanted to, it's still just as natural as everything else in the universe.

 

[Keith&Co.]

No, they're exactly the same. If God does something to affect the universe, there is some process by which he does so. That process is part of the way that the universe works. Even if it's a backdoor that he built into the programming so that he could hack into the system when he wanted to, it's still just as natural as everything else in the universe.

And the same way, if pouring water on the ground brings rain, there's some natural, if not understood, process connecting the rain dance to the rain.

And _IFF_ carrying the preserved foot of a lagomorph actually improves your score in competitive sports, then 'luck' is a natural process of not-apparently-linear connections between the keychain and one's bowling prowess.

 

[Bronzeage]

I think magic follows physical laws. Magic acts use things like illusion to make something seem other than it is, or something like that.

Well, obviously. If magic exists, there is a set of laws which govern how it works,...

Yes, whereas a miracle is not governed by natural laws. That's the distinction between the two.

Magic is one thing; a miracle is something altogether different.

This is just a game. Stage magic, in the modern sense is not the same as sorcery. A miracle is something which cannot be explained by natural law as we understand them. There is plenty of room in our ignorance to find the explanation of miracles.

 

[rhutchin]

A miracle is something which cannot be explained by natural law as we understand them. There is plenty of room in our ignorance to find the explanation of miracles.

No. By definition, a miracle cannot be explained by natural law even if we have perfect understanding of natural law. A miracle cannot come about through natural laws. The question is whether such things as the appearance of life constitute a miracle.

 

[rhutchin]

If God does something to affect the universe, there is some process by which he does so. That process is part of the way that the universe works.

Not necessarily. It is true that, "If God does something to affect the universe, there is some process by which he does so." However, the process God initiates to cause something does not mean that the universe works according to that process. God can create a universe that behaves certain laws. He can then intervene in that universe to cause events that could not happen under the laws He established to govern the universe. As an example, God goes through some process to create life in the universe. Absent God's action, no life would have appeared in the universe because the laws God established to govern the universe cannot create life.

 

[rhutchin]

Yeah, 'miracle' is comparable to distraction and false bottoms in the disappearing box.

Actually, a miracle is the manifestation of an event that could not come about through natural law. It is not distraction.

It is a distraction if you're conflating miracle and mystery, creationism and stage magic.

Then we need to define these terms.

 

[Keith&Co.]

A miracle is something which cannot be explained by natural law as we understand them. There is plenty of room in our ignorance to find the explanation of miracles.

No. By definition, a miracle cannot be explained by natural law even if we have perfect understanding of natural law. A miracle cannot come about through natural laws. The question is whether such things as the appearance of life constitute a miracle.

No. We don't have a perfect understanding of natural law. Therefore it's premature to consider anything to be a miracle, much less confidently label it to be such.

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It is a distraction if you're conflating miracle and mystery, creationism and stage magic.

Then we need to define these terms.

The terms are defined already. You're misusing them in support of your agenda.

 

[Keith&Co.]

God can create a universe that behaves certain laws. He can then intervene in that universe to cause events that could not happen under the laws He established to govern the universe.

We generally use 'universe' to describe 'everything that exists.' This 'everything' would include gods, were they to exist, and any process they use to make things happen, whether or not this replicates processes that exist without their intervention.

You're special-casing God as apart from the universe. Thus redefining existing words for your agenda.... And that's just not cricket.

 

[marine1114]

There is no such thing as a miracle. Just that mankind is not advanced enough to know all the laws of nature.