Split Trans Issues, Split from Roe v Wade is on deck

[laughing dog]

And what are the alternatives in your view if transwomen are permitted in those spaces?

Again... for your consideration... what's the problem with stopping to have a deep conversation with a strange man in a dark parking garage when a woman is there all alone? Especially since men are permitted there, right?

The alternative, in my mind, is to NOT permit males of any sort into female intimate spaces. Then we don't have to take the risk at all, and we aren't expected to strike up a get-to-know-you chat with someone who very well might be up to no good.

That is literally non-responsive to my question.

Your question presupposes that women should be expected to have our rights overridden by the desire of some men to be affirmed and validated as something they categorically are not.

The actual alternative in my view is that a whole lot of women will end up being excluded from full participation in society. When the female single-sex space becomes a mixed-sex space, a lot of women will stop using them.

No, my question was a hypothetical. It presupposed nothing of the sort. I expect that sometime in the future (maybe not in my lifetime or your lifetime), transgendered people will be accepted into such spaces because people in society will have adapted (willingly or not) without losing that "full participation" in society

Sure. That will happen when society decides that everything should be mixed sex. Because separating intimate spaces the basis of private thoughts and beliefs is absurd and dumb.

Mixed sex will happen when either 1) men stop committing sexual offenses at rates no higher than female humans or 2) society decides women don’t matter and we become second class citizens.

Perhaps you don't realize it, but your rhetoric reinforces an image of irrational bigotry. Like it or not, mixed sex or mixed gender facilities are becoming more common in dormitories and cities without the anguished outcries.

 

[TomC]

Perhaps you don't realize it, but your rhetoric reinforces an image of irrational bigotry. Like it or not, mixed sex or mixed gender facilities are becoming more common in dormitories and cities without the anguished outcries.

What is irrational about recognizing that males are the people most beset by testosterone? Trans doesn't necessarily change that.

As usual with the human situation, a small fraction of a population causes the large majority of the damage. But we do.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Perhaps you don't realize it, but your rhetoric reinforces an image of irrational bigotry. Like it or not, mixed sex or mixed gender facilities are becoming more common in dormitories and cities without the anguished outcries.

What is irrational about recognizing that males are the people most beset by testosterone? Trans doesn't necessarily change that.

As usual with the human situation, a small fraction of a population causes the large majority of the damage. But we do.
Tom

All true. And societies (d?)evolve to deal with those issues. Stigmatizing a group for the behavior of small fraction is a warning sign of bigotry.

 

[Toni]

So it sounds as though most people in this thread would prefer to have at least the option of showers/changing areas with doors….

 

[TomC]

So it sounds as though most people in this thread would prefer to have at least the option of showers/changing areas with doors….

There's an important difference between wanting them available and wanting them forced upon people.
Tom

 

[Toni]

So it sounds as though most people in this thread would prefer to have at least the option of showers/changing areas with doors….

There's an important difference between wanting them available and wanting them forced upon people.
Tom

Kind of like the difference between women welcoming trans women who still appear very male vs being told by a bunch of men that we are anti-trans for not wanting to be unexpectedly confronted by an exposed penis?

 

[Jarhyn]

So it sounds as though most people in this thread would prefer to have at least the option of showers/changing areas with doors….

There's an important difference between wanting them available and wanting them forced upon people.
Tom

I mean, if we're talking about "compulsory gateways", yes, I would force them upon society gladly, the same way I would force upon society security checkpoints at airports.

It's about public security and trust around gateways to public or compulsory activities, not about what people "prefer".

 

[TomC]

So it sounds as though most people in this thread would prefer to have at least the option of showers/changing areas with doors….

There's an important difference between wanting them available and wanting them forced upon people.
Tom

Kind of like the difference between women welcoming trans women who still appear very male vs being told by a bunch of men that we are anti-trans for not wanting to be unexpectedly confronted by an exposed penis?

It's very similar.
Most guys don't care about who's in the all male facility with them. But lots will get upset by someone who looks female or acts gay.

I think it's largely projection. They know what they think about chicks, how judgey they are, and assume that all guys are like that. (Including gay guys, which we are) . Men have similar attitudes to the presence of people who don't match their norms as women. The difference is that Men cause the vast majority of the problems. We are the problem. Pointing out that fact is nothing like bigotry.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

I can't help but think that the most vocal opponents to trans rights are often women.

It was a woman who got a trans-man murdered for using the bathroom.

It is a woman here who keeps claiming almost all trans women are really just "Men" looking for a lookie-loo.

It's not people with testosterone I fear with regards to my niece.

In wider experience of "Men" and "Women"...

It wasn't "Men" who threatened to try to get me sent to prison so I could be "raped" for telling her off for setting open soda bottles with soda in them on my clothing, then went around telling random "Men" to attack me for it.

And even without any "Men" in the mix, "Women" will still be there using social methods of exclusion.

While a lot of this comes down to attacks whose final delivery relies on the existence of "Men", I can't help but think "Women" have an equal footprint of awfulness, and a convenient patsy to deliver it at times because Men are fucking stupid, and oftentimes will do whatever a Woman asks of them.

I think "Women" and "Men" constitute a minority of humans, but they together manage to cause a lot of problems. I would deny either of them any leverage.

 

[Toni]

I can't help but think that the most vocal opponents to trans rights are often women.

It was a woman who got a trans-man murdered for using the bathroom.

It is a woman here who keeps claiming almost all trans women are really just "Men" looking for a lookie-loo.

It's not people with testosterone I fear with regards to my niece.

In wider experience of "Men" and "Women"...

It wasn't "Men" who threatened to try to get me sent to prison so I could be "raped" for telling her off for setting open soda bottles with soda in them on my clothing, then went around telling random "Men" to attack me for it.

And even without any "Men" in the mix, "Women" will still be there using social methods of exclusion.

While a lot of this comes down to attacks whose final delivery relies on the existence of "Men", I can't help but think "Women" have an equal footprint of awfulness, and a convenient patsy to deliver it at times because Men are fucking stupid, and oftentimes will do whatever a Woman asks of them.

I think "Women" and "Men" constitute a minority of humans, but they together manage to cause a lot of problems. I would deny either of them any leverage.

I’ve never claimed that trans women are men or male or that it’s all in their heads.

I’ve pointed out that due to the high prevalence of male violence, particularly directed towards women, that many women prefer not to see a naked male appearing body in women only intimate spaces and that for a significant number of women, it could be traumatizing and cause a PTSD reaction. Which would be terrible for any woman, cis or trans.

Men in this thread are all about choices of types of spaces and amounts of privacy that they feel comfortable with, are vehemently opposed to being forced into an anything.

Women feel the same way.

Men have no problems forcing women to accept whatever men say they must accept and calling them bigots fur objecting to being forced to accept something a majority of men will not.

It’s the forcing and name calling that I find hypocritical. And expecting women to just accept on faith that anyone appearing in a women only space has a natural right to be there.

Trans women want to use women’s spaces for two major reasons afaik:
1, because they are women and feel most comfortable in women only spaces
and
2. because they fear violence at the hands of men if they must share intimate spaces with male/make appearing strangers.

Cis women feel exactly the same as transwomen and men.

We just get called names for it.

 

[TomC]

I can't help but think that the most vocal opponents to trans rights are often women.

I can't help but think you are incapable of distinguishing between rights and entitlements that you personally want to have.

You refuse to acknowledge that males are the problem. You are a male. Your mansplaining is not convincing to real women.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Perhaps you don't realize it, but your rhetoric reinforces an image of irrational bigotry. Like it or not, mixed sex or mixed gender facilities are becoming more common in dormitories and cities without the anguished outcries.

What is irrational about recognizing that males are the people most beset by testosterone? Trans doesn't necessarily change that.

It is a red herring. The question isn't about whether males are allowed in women's spaces.

The question is about whether transgenders can be allowed in women's spaces. It doesn't matter if they have higher testosterone levels than the women in the facility. The question is:
1) does a transgender have a right to be in a women's locker room
2) how can that right, if it exists, be fulfilled without causing issues for the women in the locker room, managing the dignity of all parties.

You option of Pretend it doesn't exist because of biological and neurological issues you are oblivious of isn't particularly helpful.

 

[TomC]

The question isn't about whether males are allowed in women's spaces.

Yes, that is exactly the question!
Trans women are male. It's basic reality. That's why they are transitioning.

I don't know of many people who objects to a male who behave properly. The trans activists believe that male women have special entitlements.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Perhaps you don't realize it, but your rhetoric reinforces an image of irrational bigotry. Like it or not, mixed sex or mixed gender facilities are becoming more common in dormitories and cities without the anguished outcries.

What is irrational about recognizing that males are the people most beset by testosterone? Trans doesn't necessarily change that.

It is a red herring. The question isn't about whether males are allowed in women's spaces.

The question is about whether transgenders can be allowed in women's spaces. It doesn't matter if they have higher testosterone levels than the women in the facility. The question is:
1) does a transgender have a right to be in a women's locker room
2) how can that right, if it exists, be fulfilled without causing issues for the women in the locker room, managing the dignity of all parties.

You option of Pretend it doesn't exist because of biological and neurological issues you are oblivious of isn't particularly helpful.

Doors.

 

[TomC]

Doors.

You keep saying that.
Every needful place has stalls with doors.
People who want something else are free to choose what they want. Or choose not to go there or whatever.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Perhaps you don't realize it, but your rhetoric reinforces an image of irrational bigotry. Like it or not, mixed sex or mixed gender facilities are becoming more common in dormitories and cities without the anguished outcries.

What is irrational about recognizing that males are the people most beset by testosterone? Trans doesn't necessarily change that.

It is a red herring. The question isn't about whether males are allowed in women's spaces.

The question is about whether transgenders can be allowed in women's spaces. It doesn't matter if they have higher testosterone levels than the women in the facility. The question is:
1) does a transgender have a right to be in a women's locker room
2) how can that right, if it exists, be fulfilled without causing issues for the women in the locker room, managing the dignity of all parties.

You option of Pretend it doesn't exist because of biological and neurological issues you are oblivious of isn't particularly helpful.

Doors.

It provides an avenue that would work. But there are a lot of people that don't want to allow the accommodation... heck there are plenty that think transgenders aren't even a thing.

 

[Toni]

Doors.

That would eliminate most of the issues that women have.

For those individuals who insist that everybody must be exposed to their genitals: therapy. And stay out of public showers!

 

[TomC]

Doors

Why do you keep saying that when there are doors everywhere people need them
Tom

 

[Toni]

Doors

Why do you keep saying that when there are doors everywhere people need them
Tom

Not all women’s locker rooms/showers in gyms, pools, etc, have individual stalls with doors. Bathrooms do.

 

[TomC]

Doors

Why do you keep saying that when there are doors everywhere people need them
Tom

Not all women’s locker rooms/showers in gyms, pools, etc, have individual stalls with doors. Bathrooms do.

What do you mean by bathroom?
I get the impression that you are confusing facilities for the public stuff like excretion and bathing rooms.
They are very different.
Tom