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Biggest moochers of tax expenditure spending are

do you also dream about me while you sleep? ;)

I'm a little emotional because it's just so rare to see someone so completely reverse their views on a subject an internet forum. One thread scoffing and insulting a given view, in the next thread lecturing people about how its true - with links.

I look forward to having you on our team, with your awesome links, in future tax expenditure debates.
 
I think I have to agree with dismal here, I don't see how you can accurately classify what's going on as mooching.

Let's just take the following example:

Members of a group pay $100k in taxes on average, receive $40k in government services, and get $30,000 back in the form of tax policy expenditures. Therefore, they've paid in $70k net and received $40k in services, still being a net contributor of $30k.

Are they moochers?

Members of a different group pay $70k taxes on average, receive $40k in government services, and get nothing back in the form of tax policy expenditures. Are they moochers?

In what way are the members of the former group any more of a mooch than members of the latter group?
 
It's mooching about as much as any other citizen is "mooching" that gets the government assistance he qualifies for.

My point was that it's hypocritical of the CEO class to complain about the "47% moochers" when they are also rather large recipients of government help as well.
 
It's mooching about as much as any other citizen is "mooching" that gets the government assistance he qualifies for.

My point was that it's hypocritical of the CEO class to complain about the "47% moochers" when they are also rather large recipients of government help as well.

I'm sorry you somehow left the impression that mooching was taking money from the government. Are you now suggesting that it's not mooching to take money from the government?
 
You know I am capable of reading through your performance in that entire thread. You should try it. I linked a particular post already in which you specifically argued against or refused to process the idea that tax credits were spending.

Hm.. No. What he said was that you were pushing the idea that tax credits are spending despite 20-30 years of conservative rhetoric saying the opposite. It seems pretty clear to me.

Here are multiple examples of you doing it for your scrap book so you can remember back when you weren't as enlightened about tax expenditures are you are now:

And in every one he makes the same point.

I'd like to thank you for bringing all the quotations together, as it does make the overall position very clear.
 
Probably a clarification on what is meant by 'moocher' is needed for this discussion.

IMO it is based on need. For example, a person who cannot work due to disability, and receives disability support is receiving more than they are paying out in taxes. But they are not a 'moocher' because they have needs that they cannot fulfill for themselves. Someone who does not have any disability, but receives disability support (besides being a fraud) has no need, and is therefore mooching.

That some Red states take in more taxes than they give out is not necessarily a sign of mooching, as some of these states have high poverty rates. (that some of the same people denounce government assistance to others that they themselves make use of makes them hypocrites, not moochers)

When an oil company, some of the most profitable businesses in history, gets subsidies to basically do what they already have to do to stay in business, that is mooching. They do not need the extra money from the subsidy. They have plenty of their own, and are fully capable of going about their business without government help. The amount they pay in taxes vs how much aid they get is irrelevant, as the issue (as I see it) is about getting handouts that one does not need.

Bumping this because everybody seems to have ignored it. You can't tell who is a moocher based solely on how much they got versus how much they put in.
 
@Bomb#20

Tax expenditures are a method of spending through tax policy rather than the budget.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/660/650371.pdf

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/shelters/expenditures.cfm

And the biggest recipients of tax policy spending are the wealthy.
"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.
"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."

- Lewis Carroll​

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/act of god?s=t

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/act-of-God.html

Look, everybody! ksen has just proven the existence of God! Time to shut down the forum!
 
It's an issue with taxes in general. If a person makes $50K a year and pays $10K in taxes, are they getting a 40K a year subsidy from the government?

No.

But if in the absence of the deduction for mortgage interest they would have paid $12K in taxes, they are in some sense getting a $2K a year subsidy from the government.
:facepalm:

Proclamation from the King:
My loyal subjects! Our enemies are growing in power and building up their armies! The kingdom is in dire peril! We must have more roads, so our army can march to the frontiers and hold off all invaders. So from now on all of you must leave your own farms untended for a few days each month and labor to save the nation, building roads. The rules are as follows. All Christians are to build roads for two days each month. All Reform Jews are to build roads for four days each month. All Orthodox Jews are to build roads for six days each month.​

Petition from a bunch of Christian subjects:
Your Majesty, why are you giving the Reform Jews a free two day vacation? If in the absence of the deduction for reforming, they would have worked on the roads six days a month, they are in some sense getting a 2 day a month subsidy from the government.​

But the whole issue is the what is the quote "right rate" for a tax. Congress could lower the tax rates by 1% for everyone and get rid of the mortgage deduction. So the problem I have is someone saying, I pay 14% in taxes is mooching when you think they should pay 15%.

The issue is that those things that are favored by being allowed as deductions and not being taxed benefit the better off disproportionately.

Paying 14% in taxes when someone with the same income but not eligible for the deduction pays 15% is not necessarily mooching, but the difference does represent a subsidy and it is disingenuous to claim it does not.
When somebody makes a claim that's so completely irrational that the very notion that anyone could possibly sincerely believe it is mind-boggling, (for example, claiming that when you take 14% of somebody's income away from her you're subsidizing her), I often feel the urge to accuse him of being disingenuous. But I try to keep in mind that people sincerely believe all manner of crazy-ass religious drivel for no other reason than that somebody told it to them and they found the drivel sufficiently emotionally appealing that they were never tempted to apply five seconds of critical thought to it. So I generally discipline myself to resist the urge to call him disingenuous, and instead simply explain why he's wrong.

This is an attitude I recommend you adopt toward people who disagree with you. If you accept that we genuinely can't see how a 14% tax is a subsidy even though it's apparently painfully obvious to you that it is one, and you assume the reason we can't see it is because we're irrational victims of some communicable delusion, then, (although you will be utterly and completely wrong about that since the actual reason, obviously, is that we're right and you're wrong,) you will still be far closer to the truth than you will be if you instead assume, as the authors of the Bible assumed, that everyone who expresses disbelief in your ridiculous doctrines actually deep down believes in your religion and knows you're right and is just being a dick about admitting it.

Paying 14% in taxes when someone with the same income but not eligible for the deduction pays 15% is not only not mooching, but the difference does not represent a subsidy, and it is mind-blowingly absurd religiously motivated reality avoidance to claim it does. What paying 14% in taxes under such conditions actually is is obedience to a tax code that discriminates against the person who has to pay 15%.
 
Paying 14% in taxes when someone with the same income but not eligible for the deduction pays 15% is not only not mooching, but the difference does not represent a subsidy, and it is mind-blowingly absurd religiously motivated reality avoidance to claim it does. What paying 14% in taxes under such conditions actually is is obedience to a tax code that discriminates against the person who has to pay 15%.

Tax code that discriminates in favor of the person who only has to pay 14%, you mean.

In Indonesia, gasoline is sold at below-market rates, with the cost born by the taxpayer. Following your argument, those Indonesians purchasing said gasoline are not receiving a subsidy from the taxpayer, they are merely acting in obedience to a legal framework that discriminates against those taxpayers who don't have automobiles.
 
Paying 14% in taxes when someone with the same income but not eligible for the deduction pays 15% is not only not mooching, but the difference does not represent a subsidy, and it is mind-blowingly absurd religiously motivated reality avoidance to claim it does. What paying 14% in taxes under such conditions actually is is obedience to a tax code that discriminates against the person who has to pay 15%.

Tax code that discriminates in favor of the person who only has to pay 14%, you mean.
Is that what I mean? Would you be willing to entertain a hypothetical, for the sake of discussion?

(1) Suppose a dry-cleaning business's charge for laundering and pressing a shirt is $2 for men, $5 for white women and $6 for black women.
(2) Suppose you said the dry-cleaner is discriminating against black women.
(3) Suppose I said to you "The dry-cleaner is discriminating in favor of white women, you mean."

Well, is that in fact what you would mean?

In Indonesia, gasoline is sold at below-market rates, with the cost born by the taxpayer. Following your argument, those Indonesians purchasing said gasoline are not receiving a subsidy from the taxpayer, they are merely acting in obedience to a legal framework that discriminates against those taxpayers who don't have automobiles.
Sorry, I lost you. I don't see how following my argument leads to that conclusion. Assume I'm not as a smart as you and you can't just run quickly through a chain of reasoning and count on me to follow you. What is the one-to-one correspondence between my argument and an argument that the Indonesians purchasing said gasoline are not receiving a subsidy from the taxpayer? Can you lay it out step by step?
 
I have to agree with dismal, rich are not really moochers. They get some taxes back but overall they pay much more.
If you have to ask me tax preparers/accountants are the real moochers. Their existence is 100% mooching. They literally produce nothing but consume a lot. We need simpler tax code without ridiculous benefits and tax returns.
 
If you have to ask me tax preparers/accountants are the real moochers. Their existence is 100% mooching. They literally produce nothing but consume a lot. We need simpler tax code without ridiculous benefits and tax returns.
:eek: That's like saying all those guys Union draftees paid $300 to for agreeing to go in their place and fight in the Civil War were moochers!

(And, since you ask, yes, as a matter of fact I am doing my taxes this week. How did you know? ;) )
 
If you have to ask me tax preparers/accountants are the real moochers. Their existence is 100% mooching. They literally produce nothing but consume a lot. We need simpler tax code without ridiculous benefits and tax returns.
:eek: That's like saying all those guys Union draftees paid $300 to for agreeing to go in their place and fight in the Civil War were moochers!

(And, since you ask, yes, as a matter of fact I am doing my taxes this week. How did you know? ;) )

Why do you complain about smalltime things like tax perparers when the military industrial folks are giant bloodsucking tapeworms on our society and they create and feed on fear? A tax preparer is small time shit next to the F-35, the unnecessary war in Iraq, etc. Also the oil industry gets subsidies for sucking our oil out of the ground. We have a bunch of cops whose jobs depend on unenforceable laws (drug wars and corporate protection) to keep them working in thug jobs. We do have social parasites and they suck up tax money...or don't contribute. We have banks and landlords who just take. There are a lot of moochers who know how to look you in the eye and say...Pay, Sucker! In most cases there is about nothing you can do about it. We have corporate lobbyists who consume money that belongs in the tax rolls subverting proper taxation of corporations.

The next think I expect to hear is that seniors on social security are moochers, or perhaps welfare recipients who can't find decent employment. Come on now, your tax preparer isn't such a bad guy.;)
 
:eek: That's like saying all those guys Union draftees paid $300 to for agreeing to go in their place and fight in the Civil War were moochers!

(And, since you ask, yes, as a matter of fact I am doing my taxes this week. How did you know? ;) )

Why do you complain about smalltime things like tax perparers when <rest snipped>
Oh, for the love of god! For once in your life try reading, instead of just taking for granted that your own beloved ideological blinders will tell you in advance what my post says!
 
:eek: That's like saying all those guys Union draftees paid $300 to for agreeing to go in their place and fight in the Civil War were moochers!

(And, since you ask, yes, as a matter of fact I am doing my taxes this week. How did you know? ;) )

Why do you complain about smalltime things like tax perparers when the military industrial folks are giant bloodsucking tapeworms on our society and they create and feed on fear? A tax preparer is small time shit next to the F-35, the unnecessary war in Iraq, etc. Also the oil industry gets subsidies for sucking our oil out of the ground. We have a bunch of cops whose jobs depend on unenforceable laws (drug wars and corporate protection) to keep them working in thug jobs. We do have social parasites and they suck up tax money...or don't contribute. We have banks and landlords who just take. There are a lot of moochers who know how to look you in the eye and say...Pay, Sucker! In most cases there is about nothing you can do about it. We have corporate lobbyists who consume money that belongs in the tax rolls subverting proper taxation of corporations.

The next think I expect to hear is that seniors on social security are moochers, or perhaps welfare recipients who can't find decent employment. Come on now, your tax preparer isn't such a bad guy.;)

Tax preparers are much worse than military industrial folks, they produce exactly nothing.
Military industrial complex at least do defense and moves technology, Internet is a product of military industrial complex.
 
Why do you complain about smalltime things like tax perparers when the military industrial folks are giant bloodsucking tapeworms on our society and they create and feed on fear? A tax preparer is small time shit next to the F-35, the unnecessary war in Iraq, etc. Also the oil industry gets subsidies for sucking our oil out of the ground. We have a bunch of cops whose jobs depend on unenforceable laws (drug wars and corporate protection) to keep them working in thug jobs. We do have social parasites and they suck up tax money...or don't contribute. We have banks and landlords who just take. There are a lot of moochers who know how to look you in the eye and say...Pay, Sucker! In most cases there is about nothing you can do about it. We have corporate lobbyists who consume money that belongs in the tax rolls subverting proper taxation of corporations.

The next think I expect to hear is that seniors on social security are moochers, or perhaps welfare recipients who can't find decent employment. Come on now, your tax preparer isn't such a bad guy.;)

Tax preparers are much worse than military industrial folks, they produce exactly nothing.
Military industrial complex at least do defense and moves technology, Internet is a product of military industrial complex.

I have never paid a tax preparer. It is a job a few people I know do on the side about tax time and it is work. Whether you like it or not, a lot of people farm this out and if somebody wants to do the work, that it all it is...work...for money. You shouldn't get all huffy about it. The military industrial complex makes things that can kill people and then provide operators so this killing can take place. Our last glorious romp was in Iraq and because we had liars running our government. That was one big waste including human lives. Don't get defensive...you are only partly to blame.
 
Tax preparers are much worse than military industrial folks, they produce exactly nothing.
Military industrial complex at least do defense and moves technology, Internet is a product of military industrial complex.

I have never paid a tax preparer. It is a job a few people I know do on the side about tax time and it is work. Whether you like it or not, a lot of people farm this out and if somebody wants to do the work, that it all it is...work...for money. You shouldn't get all huffy about it. The military industrial complex makes things that can kill people and then provide operators so this killing can take place. Our last glorious romp was in Iraq and because we had liars running our government. That was one big waste including human lives. Don't get defensive...you are only partly to blame.
It does not matter. What matters that they produce nothing of value.
Politicians are moochers for the same reason - no value, yet people pay them.
Everyone pays for this crap, you too pay for this even if you are not using their "services" - they live on your tax dollars whether you pay them directly or not. And it's not only tax preparers it's tax consultants and lawyers of all kind.
 
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