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Minimum wage - leads to price increases more regressive than sales tax, only 35% of the benefits go to those under 2x poverty line

dismal, buddy, you seem to be taking this one pretty personally. Are you worried about having to pay your housekeeping staff more?

If you are, just hire some illegals and you can pay them as little as you want because what are they gonna do? Go to the labor dept? lol.
 
dismal, buddy, you seem to be taking this one pretty personally. Are you worried about having to pay your housekeeping staff more?

If you are, just hire some illegals and you can pay them as little as you want because what are they gonna do? Go to the labor dept? lol.

You know when you resort to this sort of thing you just make yourself look bad.
 
The evidence is building up that the minimum wage is simply a counterproductive and ineffective policy to combat poverty. Exactly as I've been saying all along.

Imagine the following scenario:



Well, guess what, that's what the minimum wage gets you:

The highly esteemed and extremely proficient Thomas MaCurdy has a new piece in the JPE (jstor) on exactly that question. The news does not surprise me:

This study investigated the antipoverty efficacy of minimum wage policies. Proponents of these policies contend that employment impacts are negligible and suggest that consumers pay for higher labor costs through imperceptible increases in goods prices. Adopting this empirical scenario, the analysis demonstrates that an increase in the national minimum wage produces a value-added tax effect on consumer prices that is more regressive than a typical state sales tax and allocates benefits as higher earnings nearly evenly across the income distribution. These income-transfer outcomes sharply contradict portraying an increase in the minimum wage as an antipoverty initiative.

MaCurdy also writes:

About 35 percent of the total increase in after-tax benefits goes to families with income less than two times the poverty threshold, a common definition of the working poor or near-poor; nearly 13 percent goes to families principally supported by low-wage workers defined as earning wages at or below 117 percent…of the new 1996 minimum wage; and only about 14 percent goes to families with children on welfare.

Unlike most public income support programs, increased earnings from the minimum wage are taxable. Over 25 percent of the increased earnings are collected back as income and payroll taxes…Even after taxes, 27.6 percent of increased earnings go to families in the top 40 percent of the income distribution.

http://marginalrevolution.com/margi...-the-minimum-wage-at-supporting-the-poor.html

It's a dumb idea if your goal is to actually help the poor as effectively as possible on a dollar for dollar basis. Can you imagine a charity that said "donate to us - if you do, $.35 of every dollar you donate will make its way to people in need - if you support our charity, new regressive tax more regressive than a sales tax will also be implemented." Who would ever consider donating? Well, no one would - so, what do they do? They vote to make other people donate instead.

I think that I must have warned you about this before, Marginal Revolution is an Austrian economics web site.

Among the absurdities in the foundations of their economics is that they don't do empirical studies. They rely on theory alone, building theories upon theory. That if empirical studies don't support their theories then the data the study was based on must have been corrupted somehow.

The problem with their approach is that if the underlying theories are crap then the theories based on them will be crap. And they are denying the scientific method that serves us pretty well.
 
Absolutely - I would support strengthening something like the EITC.

The paper is behind a paywall, but I looked a bit at the other paper cited from earlier. I've only gone through the first portions due to time constraints. Generally it states that only 25% of the poorest quintile of households have someone who is working near the minimum wage. It also states that the average added cost to that quintile due to increased costs for service and products from the '96 minimum wage increase ($4.25 to $5.15) was $84 for the year (or $7 a month).

What the paper indicates is that if the goal is to put money into the pockets of those in poverty, a minimum wage hike isn't the most effective because it is subject to payroll taxes and a great deal of those in poverty wouldn't actually see any change in income because either they work a higher paying job with less hours or simply doesn't work. It would be interesting to find out that if the higher minimum wage made other jobs that weren't worth working (costs to work or daycare couldn't offset it) became worthwhile and they worked those jobs after the hike.

So long story short, the original paper and allegedly this paper make a great argument for conservatives to increase welfare distributions because they are more effective in getting money to those in poverty.

I agree - if we are going to have anti-poverty policies (which I think we should have), we should use the most effective ones we can. The minimum wage is such a poor tool to do it (due to distortions it causes to the labor market, and the inefficiency of it as demonstrated by this paper), which has been my primarily objection all along. I have never once objected to it on grounds that we shouldn't be trying to alleviate poverty.

Another objection I have to the minimum wage - to the extent that it reduces employer profits who hire minimum wage workers, it doesn't reduce their profit based on a percentage of their income like a tax would. There is no relation to the amount of profit they earn and the amount their profit is reduced. This is why a tax based on income (or really what I want to see, a progressively designed version of a consumption tax to largely replace the income tax) to fund an increase in something like an increase in the EITC is far more equitable, on top of all the other objections.

There are a lot of problems with your approach, quickly,

  1. Income support for the working poor is effectively a government subsidy for low pay.
  2. Whatever the government subsidizes we get more of.
  3. The labor market isn't a true market,
    • Employers don't hire more people because wages are low.
    • Employers hire because they have productive work that they need done.
    • Employers don't lay off workers if they have profit making work for them to do.
    • If employers did lay off workers when their wages went up the employer would not only lose the profits that the increased wages would cost him he loses all of the profits and overheads on the production that is lost because of the layoffs.
    • The labor market is not a fair market, we are largely a nation of wage takers.
    • This is especially true if we maintain a high level of unemployment and a low level of employment in the working age population.
  4. The increase in wages should be sized to only reduce down profits, no million dollars an hour.
  5. Providing a government subsidy for low paying jobs, the EITC, means that everyone is paying to increase the profits of low wage paying businesses.
  6. Government welfare is subject to demonization, "takers."
  7. Government transfer programs should be reserved for children, the elderly and the disabled, as well as short term help for the unemployed.
  8. The minimum wage is popular across the political spectrum.
  9. None of the even the most reactionary Republicans running for president is proposing to eliminate the minimum wage.
  10. They never answer the question "If you think that increasing the minimum wage is so damaging why aren't you proposing that we eliminate it completely?"
  11. Opposition to raising the minimum wage is based on a political ideology that we should increase the income and wealth of the already wealthy rather than pay a decent wage.
  12. Raising the minimum wage is just the start of the things that we have to do to reduce profits and to increase wages, to decrease the deadweight build up of purely financial capital, capital far beyond what is needed for investment in the real economy of making products for consumption, and instead increasing the effective demand for those products to what is needed to justify more investments and growth.
  13. We need to tip the balance in wage negotiations back a little to labor's side.
  14. This could mean encouraging unions instead of intentionally discouraging them.
  15. Most countries in Europe handle wage negotiations by industry sectors establishing minimum wages for every job, this means that companies pay the same wages and can't compete with each other by lowering wages.
  16. We need to back off from globalization, and return some of the jobs that profits from sales in the US have been used to create jobs overseas.
  17. We have to look at capital controls to limit the amount of the intentionally increased profits that goes overseas to create jobs.
  18. The single most distorting tax that we have is the corporate income tax.
  19. We have been turning corporations into tax shelters instead of letting them concentrate on being the economic agents that produce products.
  20. An incredible amount of money, time and energy is wasted by corporations trying to reduce the taxes that they pay.
  21. All income should be passed through to the shareholders and taxed as their income.
  22. There is no logical reason to tax unearned income, dividends, capital gains and interest at a lower rate than earned income, income earned from one's own labor.
 
Minimum wage has always been more about getting votes and demonizing opponents than sound economics.

The cost of it is also hidden and does not appear on the government books (making it easier for politicians to support) - it's also often portrayed by its proponents as nearly cost free (or, at the very least, when pressed, paid for by rich companies exploiting workers via reduction in their ill gotten gains/profits).

The profits are not ill gotten but for the last forty years or so they have been far in excess of what is needed for investment in the real economy of producing products for consumption. The corporate profits have doubled in that time as a percentage of GDP while business investment has gone down as a percentage of GDP.
 
The cost of it is also hidden and does not appear on the government books (making it easier for politicians to support) - it's also often portrayed by its proponents as nearly cost free (or, at the very least, when pressed, paid for by rich companies exploiting workers via reduction in their ill gotten gains/profits).

Yes, that's politics - not economics.

Yes, as is the opposition to raising the minimum wage. If there is one conclusion to be drawn from all of the studies about raising the minimum wage it is that it doesn't have much of an impact on the overall economy either positively or negatively. Except for the obvious one of raising the income of the people who earn the minimum wage or close to it.
 
It was also established because workers were becoming indentured slaves to corporations, living in corporate housing, shopping at the corporate store, never ever able to catch up.

Research suggests that the company towns were set up almost exclusively in isolated areas (mining, or example), where there was far higher risk for a non-company entity to set up stores in these towns and build housing. A town dependent on a single economic activity is high risk - something which a company involved in that activity has far more knowledge regarding and could therefore offer lower prices and/or higher wages when the company owned these other things. Research also suggests that few, if any, of these workers wanted to buy their own home in such a town, largely due to the highly cyclical nature of the industry the town was dependent on - they rented, allowing them to remain highly mobile and leave the town when better opportunities arose or layoffs occurred, and they did.

The company town indentured servitude idea is basically a myth.

This idea that minimum wage is some sort of ignorant plot is a right-wing fan fiction. Dealing with poverty may not best be helped via minimum wage hikes, but it seems for many right-wingers, not raising minimum wage should be followed by cutting SNAP and other aids to help those in poverty (see current Republican budget proposal). So you can understand why some liberals may react as they do to such things.

What I do find interesting, and if still true, that only 1 in 4 of the bottom quintile family's has a low wage earner.

If people acknowledge the ineffectiveness of the minimum wage compared to alternatives and therefore shift their support more so to these alternatives, that I think is a positive step forward, regardless of what you think the "evil" right wingers are trying to do. By the way, the earned income credit has far more support on the right than the minimum wage. There is far less right-wing resistance to it. The program was started under Ford in 1975, strengthened under Reagan in 1986, and again under Bush Sr. in 1990, and again under Bush Jr. in 2001. That is every single Republican administration since Ford in 1975.

The idea that the minimum wage is ineffective for those earning it is ridiculous. The only way that you have been able to support this idea is by producing studies that never address the one important fact that raising the minimum wage increases the wages of the people who are earning it.

We have this study that raising the minimum wage doesn't impact much to eliminate poverty, which is a reflection of how few people earn the minimum wage because it has been allowed to drop so low effectively. This is the lowest that it has ever been in real terms, considering inflation.

The previous study that "proved beyond a doubt that the minimum wage is harmful reached the conclusion that rather than causing more unemployment among current minimum wage earners increases in it reduces the future increase in the number of people who are employed to earn it, because during the recovery from the Bush deregulation derangement crisis and recession the economy didn't add jobs as quickly as the recovery from other recessions.

This is pretty weak. The recovery from recessions caused by the financial sector’s misbehavior always takes longer than the recovery from a simple business cycle recession. Especially when the minority party is doing everything in its power to scuttle the recovery.
 
The evidence is building up that the minimum wage is simply a counterproductive and ineffective policy to combat poverty. Exactly as I've been saying all along.

Imagine the following scenario:



Well, guess what, that's what the minimum wage gets you:



http://marginalrevolution.com/margi...-the-minimum-wage-at-supporting-the-poor.html

It's a dumb idea if your goal is to actually help the poor as effectively as possible on a dollar for dollar basis. Can you imagine a charity that said "donate to us - if you do, $.35 of every dollar you donate will make its way to people in need - if you support our charity, new regressive tax more regressive than a sales tax will also be implemented." Who would ever consider donating? Well, no one would - so, what do they do? They vote to make other people donate instead.

I think that I must have warned you about this before, Marginal Revolution is an Austrian economics web site.

Among the absurdities in the foundations of their economics is that they don't do empirical studies. They rely on theory alone, building theories upon theory. That if empirical studies don't support their theories then the data the study was based on must have been corrupted somehow.

The problem with their approach is that if the underlying theories are crap then the theories based on them will be crap. And they are denying the scientific method that serves us pretty well.

You must have marginal revolution confused for some other website - they focus heavily on posting empirical studies.
 
So long story short, the original paper and allegedly this paper make a great argument for conservatives to increase welfare distributions because they are more effective in getting money to those in poverty.
I have access to the paper. It's not a study but a thought experiment and lit review to support a preconceived conclusion. There are no hard numbers only a lot of "shoulds" and "we thinks". I could do the same thing and "prove" the Koch Bros are Bolsheviks.

This is the norm for Austrian economics. They believe that thought experiments, a good way to describe what they term "praxeology," is a better way to think about economics than the hypothesis and test against known data cycle of science. Refer to nearly any page in von Mises' Human Action. It is available as a free download here.
 
So you are saying these statements were pulled out of their ass?

Yes for the most part. These are economists after all. Let me pull some statements.

To depict the circumstances deemed most likely to apply by minimum wage advocates, the analysis below assumes that no employment or profit losses occur as a result of minimum wage increases

"Thus, our simulations make three related assumptions:

• consumers do not reduce consumption as prices rise,
• all increased labor costs are passed on in higher prices, and
• low-wage workers remain employed at the same number of hours after the minimum wage rises.

Taken together, these three assumptions provide a setting for simulating the expected effects of minimum wage increases in a relatively straightforward manner"


They also look at gross family income not selecting out impoverished families or effects on individuals which would better measure effects on those groups. In other words, all teen workers who live at home have their income counted with their families and this waters down the aggregate numbers.
___________

Implict here is that an increase in the minimum wage will result in increased prices. They don't explain how that would be true.

Austrian economics is grounded in the belief that prices are determined by supply and demand. This is close to ground zero of their house of cards logic built on the fundamental, base assumption of human action. That supply and demand will determine the price.

So what about raising the minimum wage changes either the supply, the number that can be produced, or the demand for the item, the marginal utility of the item for the item at the price before the minimum wage increase? Nothing.

According to the Austrians themselves, the price is completely out of the control of the producer, in order for the price to go up the demand curve has to shift to the left or the supply curve has to shift to the right. .

Austrians claim that the supply curve shifts to the right because of "marginal productivity," that supply and demand drive the price of the of all of the products sold, down to the marginal cost of producing that last item, the marginal product. This is expressed as

MR = MC​

That the marginal price (revenue) equals the marginal costs of producing that final item.

And since the increased wages are now part of the marginal cost the price MR goes up.

To say that this marginal productivity assumption is the basis for all of Austrian economics is almost an understatement. This is the price discipline that they claim can control economic agents, producers and consumers, better than the government can with its piles of laws and regulations.

It is the same price discipline that guarantees the maximum social justice. That workers are paid for the full value of their labor, for example or that the full capacity of the producer's facility is utilized, that is the maximum efficiency.

There is just a small problem with this assumption. In a modern industrial economy this pricing level not only guarantees that you will have those things, it is an absolute guarantee that you won't have something else. Any profits. None. Zero. In fact, it guarantees that you will operate at a loss. Everyday, for every item that you produce and ship out.

Profits are important. They are the incentive to get people to invest money in the venture. No profits, no investment, no production, no economy.

How does this flaw happen?

Because to have a profit the MC, the marginal cost, which is equal to the price that the market sets for all of the items produced remember, must obviously be higher than the average cost of the entire production plus all of the fixed overhead costs, rent, executives' salaries, etc., plus any profit. When you plot the costs of production versus the number of items produced it has to be a ”U" shape, with the costs of production rising as you approach the full capacity of the production facility. What is called "diminishing returns."

Unfortunately in a modern industrial economy you almost never see a "U" shaped production cost curve. Why? Because of something called the 'economies of scale.' Almost always the last item that you produce is the lowest production cost item that you will produce because you have spread the fixed overhead costs over the largest number of products possible. Obviously, if as the Austrians say, that this is price that you get for your entire production run you are in serious trouble. No profits. Nothing but losses.

What does it mean for Austrian economics? It is just another reason that it is a fantasy.

This never seems to bother Austrians, especially the rather crude internet Austrian economists that you run into on sites like "Marginal Revolution." Most of these Austrian economists have adopted Austrian economics not because of the elegance of the logic that it exposes but because they are drawn to it because it satisfies they long head political beliefs. Most haven't read anything written by an Austrian economist with the exception of chapter 10 of Hayek's Road to Serfdom in which Hayek in no uncertain terms declares during the second world war that if a country didn't embrace an economic system based on individual liberty and the truly free market that they are doomed to slide down that slippery slope to either fascism or communism, the road to totalitarianism, the road to serfdom.

The fact that none of the European Social democracies slid into the serfdom of communism doesn't seem to convince any of the internet Austrians that Hayek was wrong. It demonstrates a stubborn lack of critical thinking skills that is repeated constantly by Austrians and Libertarians. Logic can't penetrate their political beliefs. Most are political conservatives and as such resigned to being wrong. Always. About everything.
 
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Implict here is that an increase in the minimum wage will result in increased prices. They don't explain how that would be true.

Your whole analysis is a mess. However, this should be intuitively obvious.

Profitability of each firm falls along a normal curve. You have some losing money or breaking even, most of them making near the "average" profit, and some of them making well beyond the average.

Labor cost increases will push those firms at the left side of the curve, the least profitable firms, into being nonviable. They will shut down. The greater the increase the more that will shut down.

Now, with less competition out there, the profit maximizing price increases for the remaining players. Supply has been reduced (the ones that shut down), so the remaining suppliers can charge more to meet the unchanged demand.

Of course, when price increases, you also get less quantity demanded. Customers will purchase less from firms that hire minimum wage labor. Therefore, you see a reduction in employment for minimum wage labor. You will also see the remaining firms attempt to find substitutes for minimum labor - either use less of it and provide slightly worse service (a reduction in product quality with no offsetting reduction in price, the other form a price increase can take), or more automation.
 
Our whole economic system is a mess, it's practically designed to allow money to flow upwards into the hands of a small percentage of clever operators, putting the onus on to government to formulate policies, minimum wage, taxes, etc, to enable a miniscule 'trickle down' effect.
 
Our whole economic system is a mess, it's practically designed to allow money to flow upwards into the hands of a small percentage of clever operators, putting the onus on to government to formulate policies, minimum wage, taxes, etc, to enable a miniscule 'trickle down' effect.

How does that make it a "mess"? It's only the left that constantly writhes its hands over inequality while, during the exact same point in time, things have never been better than ever before in the history of the human species. And what's the alternative? The Soviet era command economies, which consisted of reactionary measures to combat this so called "mess", were an abysmal failure.

Your argument is basically "it's not perfectly fair when left on it's own, therefore, abolish it!"
 
Our whole economic system is a mess, it's practically designed to allow money to flow upwards into the hands of a small percentage of clever operators, putting the onus on to government to formulate policies, minimum wage, taxes, etc, to enable a miniscule 'trickle down' effect.

How does that make it a "mess"? It's only the left that constantly writhes its hands over inequality while, during the exact same point in time, things have never been better than ever before in the history of the human species. And what's the alternative? The Soviet era command economies, which consisted of reactionary measures to combat this so called "mess", were an abysmal failure.

Your argument is basically "it's not perfectly fair when left on it's own, therefore, abolish it!"

So, where exactly did is say ''abolish it?''

Perhaps it just needs a rebuild and a reboot. The super high incomes of CEO's and executives and the relentless drive for ever greater company profits at the expense of workers wages and conditions took off during the Reagan/Thatcher era....Wall street, greed is good, yada.

We, as a potentually fairer society, need to cap high end salaries and increase the incomes for ordinary workers, the people who do the productive work that makes it possible to run a business. As it is, in terms of income, only those at the top appear to be valued.
 
Implict here is that an increase in the minimum wage will result in increased prices. They don't explain how that would be true.

Your whole analysis is a mess. However, this should be intuitively obvious.

Profitability of each firm falls along a normal curve. You have some losing money or breaking even, most of them making near the "average" profit, and some of them making well beyond the average.

Labor cost increases will push those firms at the left side of the curve, the least profitable firms, into being nonviable. They will shut down. The greater the increase the more that will shut down.

Now, with less competition out there, the profit maximizing price increases for the remaining players. Supply has been reduced (the ones that shut down), so the remaining suppliers can charge more to meet the unchanged demand.
Of course they can't. Unchanged demand means they'd lose sales and, therefore, profit.

Of course, when price increases, you also get less quantity demanded.
Then they can't just up their prices as you claim, and if they do the market will bring them back down.

Now it might be that the raised production cost makes the lower price unprofitable. Marginal businesses will have to up their prices or fold, and may fold anyway if there aren't consumers willing to pay the higher price. But that

(a) doesn't mean all MW raises are passed directly to consumers, and

(b) doesn't necessarily make consumers worse off. If the raise is around the point where employees need welfare and charity, others were already paying the difference for stuff they weren't willing to buy at its true cost.
 
Implicit here is that an increase in the minimum wage will result in increased prices. They don't explain how that would be true.

Your whole analysis is a mess. However, this should be intuitively obvious.

Profitability of each firm falls along a normal curve. You have some losing money or breaking even, most of them making near the "average" profit, and some of them making well beyond the average.

Labor cost increases will push those firms at the left side of the curve, the least profitable firms, into being nonviable. They will shut down. The greater the increase the more that will shut down.

Now, with less competition out there, the profit maximizing price increases for the remaining players. Supply has been reduced (the ones that shut down), so the remaining suppliers can charge more to meet the unchanged demand.

Of course, when price increases, you also get less quantity demanded.

I'm not sure that really makes sense. The underlying demand is there, but suppressed by higher prices triggered by lack of competition. In other words, firms are reaping extra profit by raising prices. But a scenario where profits are high, competition is low, demand is captive, and there is a large pool of ready-trained employees, is ripe for new entrants into the market. It doesn't sound like a new equilibrium at all.

What I don't understand is that, in your analysis, you're portraying increased automation and the closure of loss-making companies as bad outcomes. Doesn't that actually improve the economy overall?
 
Your whole analysis is a mess. However, this should be intuitively obvious.

Profitability of each firm falls along a normal curve. You have some losing money or breaking even, most of them making near the "average" profit, and some of them making well beyond the average.

Labor cost increases will push those firms at the left side of the curve, the least profitable firms, into being nonviable. They will shut down. The greater the increase the more that will shut down.

Now, with less competition out there, the profit maximizing price increases for the remaining players. Supply has been reduced (the ones that shut down), so the remaining suppliers can charge more to meet the unchanged demand.

Of course, when price increases, you also get less quantity demanded.

I'm not sure that really makes sense. The underlying demand is there, but suppressed by higher prices triggered by lack of competition. In other words, firms are reaping extra profit by raising prices. But a scenario where profits are high, competition is low, demand is captive, and there is a large pool of ready-trained employees, is ripe for new entrants into the market. It doesn't sound like a new equilibrium at all.

What I don't understand is that, in your analysis, you're portraying increased automation and the closure of loss-making companies as bad outcomes. Doesn't that actually improve the economy overall?

The reason automation can be good is that it can lower the cost of producing things allowing us to afford more things, and free up labor to produce those other things. For example, when you lower the cost of producing some good from $20 to $15 people can have more of that thing and/or more other things.

But when you start messing with prices all bets are off. For example if you apply a minimum wage that raises the cost of a good from $20 to $25 people can afford less of that thing and/or less of other things. Then there may be an automation solution that now makes sense because it can lower the cost to $22 but it is still higher than before and people can afford less things. Also, the labor that is displaced by the automation struggles to find alternative uses because you have artificially raised the price of labor above what the market would pay for unskilled labor.

Prices contain information. When you mess with prices the economy rebalances into a less optimal allocation of resources.
 
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