If unionizing is bad why isn't incorporation?

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is that your side takes it as a given that there is enough such money to fund whatever you want.

The only way that can be true is if the money is infinite.

No, still fallacious.

Try explaining how you get from 'sufficient money' to 'infinite money'.

Sufficient without measuring.

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Union: "Give us what we want or you don't operate".

That doesn't sound like negotiation to me.

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First you have to state it correctly:

Labor banding together in the form of a union to drive up the price of labor = bad

It's bad because this means higher prices to consumers.

No it doesn't.

It means smaller profits, that's all.

But problems arise when owners feel they are entitled to certain profits.

The entitlement mentality is strongest in ownership.

Once again the infinite pool of profits idea rears it's ugly head.

Offering up shit for the 1000th time doesn't make it stink less.

You were certainly paying attention in conservative catechism class. That's the only place where people believe unions have this kind of power.

The union has absolute power in any situation where strikebreakers aren't permitted.

 

[ksen]

Bring back the Pinkertons!

 

[Nexus]

I leaning towards being anti-union if the anti-union posters here could explain to me how much better working conditions and wages were before unions arose I'll be convinced.

 

[Bronzeage]

No, still fallacious.

Try explaining how you get from 'sufficient money' to 'infinite money'.

Sufficient without measuring.

- - - Updated - - -

Union: "Give us what we want or you don't operate".

That doesn't sound like negotiation to me.

- - - Updated - - -

First you have to state it correctly:

Labor banding together in the form of a union to drive up the price of labor = bad

It's bad because this means higher prices to consumers.

No it doesn't.

It means smaller profits, that's all.

But problems arise when owners feel they are entitled to certain profits.

The entitlement mentality is strongest in ownership.

Once again the infinite pool of profits idea rears it's ugly head.

Offering up shit for the 1000th time doesn't make it stink less.

You were certainly paying attention in conservative catechism class. That's the only place where people believe unions have this kind of power.

The union has absolute power in any situation where strikebreakers aren't permitted.

I was playing pool the other night and the other guy sank 5 balls on the breakshot. He asked if I "jacked the rack." This means putting farther down the table about an inch. This greatly increases the chances of sinking a ball on the break. I told him that if was that good, I'd do it every time.

Unions do not have absolute power. If they did, there would never be a strike in the first place. Conservatives have managed to paint a picture of labor unions as boogiemen who steal children and eat babies. It plays into the contempt conservatives have for working class people.

Absolute power? This is a silly idea, perpetuated by the Koch brothers. If you want to see absolute power, take a look at what couple billion dollars can buy you. For that kind of money you can unionize a state legislature.

 

[arkirk]

Sufficient without measuring.

- - - Updated - - -

Union: "Give us what we want or you don't operate".

That doesn't sound like negotiation to me.

- - - Updated - - -

First you have to state it correctly:

Labor banding together in the form of a union to drive up the price of labor = bad

It's bad because this means higher prices to consumers.

No it doesn't.

It means smaller profits, that's all.

But problems arise when owners feel they are entitled to certain profits.

The entitlement mentality is strongest in ownership.

Once again the infinite pool of profits idea rears it's ugly head.

Offering up shit for the 1000th time doesn't make it stink less.

You were certainly paying attention in conservative catechism class. That's the only place where people believe unions have this kind of power.

The union has absolute power in any situation where strikebreakers aren't permitted.

I was playing pool the other night and the other guy sank 5 balls on the breakshot. He asked if I "jacked the rack." This means putting farther down the table about an inch. This greatly increases the chances of sinking a ball on the break. I told him that if was that good, I'd do it every time.

Unions do not have absolute power. If they did, there would never be a strike in the first place. Conservatives have managed to paint a picture of labor unions as boogiemen who steal children and eat babies. It plays into the contempt conservatives have for working class people.

Absolute power? This is a silly idea, perpetuated by the Koch brothers. If you want to see absolute power, take a look at what couple billion dollars can buy you. For that kind of money you can unionize a state legislature.

The management in so many of these strikes just cuts off the negotiations. They are never forced to cough up the company records and show there isn't enough money and nobody really knows anything except the management. Then they can claim anything they like and do about anything they want to. There is something that seems to carry over to union negotiations from the art of warfare. Lying and cheating are okay...you are at war with these bumpkin workers. It is always best if they don't speak your language and need their wages to keep eating. By cultivating worker ignorance of the actual conditions of the company, they really are in no position to bargain. There is a point to Loren's vagueness. It keeps those arguing in favor of workers from the hard facts they need for successful negotiations. At the same time, we see management hiring lawyers, thugs, and foreign workers and often just moving away. These are weapons labor does not have because they are only possible if you can afford them. Reagan showed us how it works with the air traffic controllers. I haven't flown since.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Unions do not have absolute power. If they did, there would never be a strike in the first place. Conservatives have managed to paint a picture of labor unions as boogiemen who steal children and eat babies. It plays into the contempt conservatives have for working class people.

Absolute power? This is a silly idea, perpetuated by the Koch brothers. If you want to see absolute power, take a look at what couple billion dollars can buy you. For that kind of money you can unionize a state legislature.

Airline pilots unions. There can't be strikebreakers.

Note how airlines keep going bankrupt.

 

[Bronzeage]

Unions do not have absolute power. If they did, there would never be a strike in the first place. Conservatives have managed to paint a picture of labor unions as boogiemen who steal children and eat babies. It plays into the contempt conservatives have for working class people.

Absolute power? This is a silly idea, perpetuated by the Koch brothers. If you want to see absolute power, take a look at what couple billion dollars can buy you. For that kind of money you can unionize a state legislature.

Airline pilots unions. There can't be strikebreakers.

Note how airlines keep going bankrupt.

You prefer 2nd rate pilots? How about tired and sleepy pilots. There are plenty of non-union airlines where you will find them.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

If you can pay for anything out of profits then they must be infinite.

Of course that is your fantasy and not what anybody has said.

What was said was that if profits exist and perks and benefits exist for only a few in an organization, some of those profits and the money that pays for perks, like private jets and huge severance packages, could go to the people who actually work for a living.

Does anyone from the level of manager on up actually do anything or contribute anything to the process at all?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

If unions are such a good thing, why won't the government allow the military to unionize?

 

[DBT]

Unions do not have absolute power. If they did, there would never be a strike in the first place. Conservatives have managed to paint a picture of labor unions as boogiemen who steal children and eat babies. It plays into the contempt conservatives have for working class people.

Absolute power? This is a silly idea, perpetuated by the Koch brothers. If you want to see absolute power, take a look at what couple billion dollars can buy you. For that kind of money you can unionize a state legislature.

Airline pilots unions. There can't be strikebreakers.

Note how airlines keep going bankrupt.

So airlines go bust because pilots are in unions?

 

[Togo]

No, still fallacious.

Try explaining how you get from 'sufficient money' to 'infinite money'.

Sufficient without measuring.

Nope, still fallacious reasoning.

Try explaining how you get from sufficient (without measuring) money to infinite money.

 

[untermensche]

If unions are such a good thing, why won't the government allow the military to unionize?

The military IS one big union.

People in the military can't be fired on a whim. They have protections, a process.

And of course no market determines military pay.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

If unions are such a good thing, why won't the government allow the military to unionize?

The military IS one big union.

People in the military can't be fired on a whim. They have protections, a process.

And of course no market determines military pay.

Pardon me while I stop laughing.

The inability to quickly terminate the employment relationship protects the military, not the soldier. That's why quitting abruptly is called "desertion".

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The level of irony in this thread is absolutely stunning - even by the standards of this forum.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

If unions are such a good thing, why won't the government allow the military to unionize?

Most U.S. Union Members Are Working for the Government, New Data Shows

I think Laughing Dog's idea of irony is spot on.

aa

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Ah yes, a majority of those in unions do work for the government - but NOT uniformed soldier, sailor, marines, and airmen. The Department of Defense has a great exception. If you wear the uniform, you are not allowed to unionize. You're looking at the bureaucrats, I'm looking at the service members.

And no, LD's conception of irony is far from spot on.

However, if people here somehow think I'm wrong about the military unionizing, there is indeed irony in this thread.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

Ah yes, a majority of those in unions do work for the government - but NOT uniformed soldier, sailor, marines, and airmen. The Department of Defense has a great exception. If you wear the uniform, you are not allowed to unionize. You're looking at the bureaucrats, I'm looking at the service members.

And no, LD's conception of irony is far from spot on.

However, if people here somehow think I'm wrong about the military unionizing, there is indeed irony in this thread.

If incorporation is such a good thing, why won't the government allow the military to incorporate? Why isn't it publicly traded and services sold on the open market?

Are we really sure everything has to be unionized and/or incorporated before we draw the conclusion that one or the other is a good thing?

aa

 

[Bronzeage]

The military IS one big union.

People in the military can't be fired on a whim. They have protections, a process.

And of course no market determines military pay.

Pardon me while I stop laughing.

The inability to quickly terminate the employment relationship protects the military, not the soldier. That's why quitting abruptly is called "desertion".

It's not that funny. The Uniform Code of Military Justice contains a lot more safeguards for soldiers than any union contract ever dreamed. There is grievance procedure as well as separation procedure. Military service is a contract and neither side can violate the contract without consequences. It's a much better deal than any union member ever had.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

As a veteran, all II can do is sadly laugh at that statement.

 

[Bronzeage]

As a veteran, all II can do is sadly laugh at that statement.

Your sense of humor not withstanding, there are lots of funny things that are none the less, true.