Iran chooses to remain an enemy

[Ford]

My company employed a US army reserve intelligence officer who spoke both Russian and Ukrainian. He was constantly on active duty in the late 1980's and early 1990's on verification teams who went to Russia and the Ukraine to watch nuclear missiles being physically destroyed. The missiles were cut apart and left outdoors where reconnaissance satellites could see them. Silo doors were jammed part of the way opened so that the satellites could see that they were out of service.

It was the intent of these some times extreme measures to prevent any cheating on the terms of the disarmament treaties such as you are implying.

But what sort of verification do we have with Iran?

Why do you even bother to ask? It is pretty clear there is no level of verification that will satisfy you, since you've made up your mind that the only thing Iran - and all Muslims for that matter - want is to wipe out all the Jews.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

My company employed a US army reserve intelligence officer who spoke both Russian and Ukrainian. He was constantly on active duty in the late 1980's and early 1990's on verification teams who went to Russia and the Ukraine to watch nuclear missiles being physically destroyed. The missiles were cut apart and left outdoors where reconnaissance satellites could see them. Silo doors were jammed part of the way opened so that the satellites could see that they were out of service.

It was the intent of these some times extreme measures to prevent any cheating on the terms of the disarmament treaties such as you are implying.

But what sort of verification do we have with Iran?

What level of verification does Iran have with you?

And, what kind of verification do any of us have with Israel? They still officially deny having these things, or has that changed recently?

 

[angelo]

But what sort of verification do we have with Iran?

Why do you even bother to ask? It is pretty clear there is no level of verification that will satisfy you, since you've made up your mind that the only thing Iran - and all Muslims for that matter - want is to wipe out all the Jews.

Well, now that you mention it, yes. Most islamic states perhaps 99.5% of them want to kill Jews. They have tried several times already, but got a kick in the arse each time.

 

[Ford]

Why do you even bother to ask? It is pretty clear there is no level of verification that will satisfy you, since you've made up your mind that the only thing Iran - and all Muslims for that matter - want is to wipe out all the Jews.

Well, now that you mention it, yes. Most islamic states perhaps 99.5% of them want to kill Jews. They have tried several times already, but got a kick in the arse each time.

Wow, you sure have thrown out an interesting statistic there! 99.5 percent of "Islamic states," eh?

How do you define "Islamic state" then? Because if you define it as a state where the majority population of the country is Muslim, then I guess you're going to have to remind me of all the times Indonesia tried to wipe out Israel. And there's got to be a source you can quote which details the numerous attacks on Israel by the 150 million Muslims living in Bangladesh. Malaysia is mostly Muslim as well. When did they last invade Israel?

In fact, most of the world's Muslims (over 60 percent at last count) live in South and Southeast Asia.


While you're compiling your list for me, don't forget to include all the attacks on Israel launched by Mali, Niger, Morocco, Kosovo, Guinea, Kazakhstan, and the small but overwhelmingly Muslim nation of Mauritania.


If you want, you can ask Loren for help. He claims that "genocide of the Jews" is "the objective of the Muslims," so I'm sure he'll be along shortly to back up that statement with facts.


I'll wait.

 

[angelo]

Ask the average Muslim what the thinks of Jews. By the way, I should have stated that 95% figure are the Islamic states surrounding Israel. Drawing a very long bow including Indonesia Malaysia ect. But ask those Muslims as well what they think of infidels or Jews in particular

 

[Togo]

Ask the average Muslim what the thinks of Jews. By the way, I should have stated that 95% figure are the Islamic states surrounding Israel. Drawing a very long bow including Indonesia Malaysia ect. But ask those Muslims as well what they think of infidels or Jews in particular

I'm going to guess that any Muslim who doesn't immediately starting spewing angelo or Loren-style opinions is going to magically become 'not average'?

We have both Muslims and Jews in my office. Somehow barbed wire and armed checkpoints have never been necessary.

 

[Frikki]

Can we just replay what Loren said about Iraq back in 2003 and close this thread, he obviously did not learn anything new then.

 

[SimpleDon]

The middle east is a tar baby for the US, the rest of the world and the Middle East itself. .

These are the facts.

1. The rational behind almost all of the conflicts in the Middle East is religion.
2. Religion is irrational.
   • There is no God, no Allah and no Yahweh to make divine land grants, to charge followers to spread the religion through liberal application of the sword or to force planning for the Apocalypse.
   • Religion is a man made social construct originally meant to explain the unexplainable and as a form of social control.
   • Science has largely explained the unexplainable and science provides the way to explaining the remaining unexplained.
   • Laws, regulations and jurisprudence have largely replaced divine dictates as social controls.
   • Religion has been maintained as a form of social control and explaining the unexplainable for the gullible, the stupid and the lazy.
3. The US isn't currently taking sides in the current main destabilizing conflict in the Middle East, Shia verses Sunni.
4. Shia Islam is the sect of only between 10 to 15% of all Muslims.
5. Shias quite rightly fear being dominated by the almost 90% majority Sunnis.
6. The US tipped the balance in this conflict, seemingly unwittingly, toward Shia and Iran by overthrowing the Sunni minority government in Iraq.
7. Obama is obeying Crate and Barrel rules, you break it, you own it.
8. The US is the sole global superpower left.
9. The choices left to the US are a very bad one and an even worse one.
   • We can withdraw and allow the Sunnis and the Shia to fight each other across the region, the even worse choice.
   • Or we can intercede selectively to try to stabilize the region by trying to re-establish the balance, the very bad choice.
10. If the US's main concern is with the sponsorship of Islamic terrorism directed toward the US hands down the Sunnis are more culpable in this.
    • 9/11 was financed by Sunni Saudis.
    • Sunnis sponsor Al Qaeda, ISIS, The Muslim Brotherhood, various Islamic Jihadist organizations, various Mujahideen, Hamas, etc., almost too many to list.
    • The terrorist organizations supported by Iran are largely directed against their most immediate threats, the Sunnis.
    • They haven't acted against American interests since the muscular Reagan foreign policy taught them and the whole Middle East bag of crazy people that America will negotiate with terrorists providing them with gains from their terrorism, that the US won't retaliate against them for terrorism and in fact the US supports terrorism itself.
11. As stupid and shortsighted as the invasion of Iraq was, it was something that an invasion of Iran isn't, militarily feasible.
    • The terrain of Iran is similar to Afghanistan, valleys separated by high mountains.
    • The US has no obvious staging areas for a land Shock and Awe™ invasion.
    • The US can't count on any widespread support from any countries outside of a few in the Middle East.
    • Support for another invasion in the Middle East would be limited inside the US too, opposition would be fierce even to a limited bombing campaign.
    • An invasion or a more limited bombing campaign would solidify the Iranians' behind the mullahs, an extremely counter productive outcome.
12. There is every reason to believe that the religious rulers of Iran aren't as firmly entrenched as the majority of Americans believe.
    • Iran has a large, well educated middle class.
    • Iran is the among the youngest countries in the Middle East in average age.
    • In spite of the chanting of the mullahs the population of Iran is pro-Americans if not pro-American government.
    • Polygyny is legal in Iran but it is no longer widely practiced or accepted, especially by the young.
    • Polygyny provides the raw material to produce suicide bombers, sexually frustrated males.
13. As irrational that the Iranian government is, they are absolutely correct that having nuclear weapons means that they will be treated differently, that their desire for nuclear weapons is not irrational.
14. By choosing to enrich uranium they have chosen the hardest path to building a bomb.
15. It is much easier to run the existing reactors to produce plutonium and to separate it from the spent fuel rods to build a plutonium bomb.
16. It gives some credence to the Iranians' story of wanting to enrich their own reactor fuel, especially after the US refused to sell them fuel after the take over of the American Embassy and the kidnapping of the 50 embassy personnel.
17. The Jewish people's only claim on the land that is today's Israel is based the old testament book of Joshua written almost 900 years after the improbable facts supposedly depicted in it, in which Yahweh makes a divine land grant eerily similar to a Babylonian myth.
18. Israel wouldn't exist without the support of the US, they probably wouldn't survive long without the US's support, their continued existence is more dependent on the US and its influential Jewish population than any internal development.
19. Israel is the only functioning democracy in the Middle East south of Turkey, in spite of the fact that they stole the land that they are on they deserve support for this reason alone.
20. Israel is not a theocracy, the population is heavily Jewish, about 75%, but a healthy 20% of those consider themselves to be atheists that presumably follow Jewish traditions.

The sum total of this exercise is that there is a small kernel of truth supporting each and everyone's largely bullsh*t positions. That the US's current policy of unquestioned support for Israel's largely bullsh*t positions while battering and bribing them and everyone else involved to try to negotiate their bullsh*t low level war while trying to prevent any more destructive war all of the while realizing that the whole effort is doomed to failure except that not making the largely futile efforts would result in far worse than the current situation, destructive war and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of humans that deserve to live.

 

[angelo]

You are aware of course that mo himself slaughtered Jews when they refused to convert to the death cult?

 

[angelo]

Simple Don's longish article is right on the money and factual.

 

[Ford]

Ask the average Muslim what the thinks of Jews. By the way, I should have stated that 95% figure are the Islamic states surrounding Israel. Drawing a very long bow including Indonesia Malaysia ect. But ask those Muslims as well what they think of infidels or Jews in particular

Well as it happens my cousin is an "average Muslim," being a second generation immigrant to the US from South Asia. I'm pretty sure she has no problem with infidels as she married one. I must admit the topic of whether or not she wants to commit genocide against the Jews has never come up, partially because it would be a very odd conversation to have, and partially because only a complete asshole would assume that someone hates Jews just because they're Muslim.


By the way, that was a pretty epic shifting of the goalposts there. I guess it never occurred to you that there are Muslim countries outside the boundaries of your prejudice.

edited to add:


FYI, you know which country in the Middle East has the largest population of Jews outside of Israel? (hint: it is one of the words in the OP title)

 

[SimpleDon]

My company employed a US army reserve intelligence officer who spoke both Russian and Ukrainian. He was constantly on active duty in the late 1980's and early 1990's on verification teams who went to Russia and the Ukraine to watch nuclear missiles being physically destroyed. The missiles were cut apart and left outdoors where reconnaissance satellites could see them. Silo doors were jammed part of the way opened so that the satellites could see that they were out of service.

It was the intent of these some times extreme measures to prevent any cheating on the terms of the disarmament treaties such as you are implying.

But what sort of verification do we have with Iran?

Iran has allowed inspection by the UN in the past. Iran doesn't have any nuclear weapons to destroy so the question is to inspect their enrichment facilities, which is part of what they are negotiating right now. The NPT requires the inspections.

The sanctions are the result of them stopping the inspections. It depends on how effective the sanctions are. But they wouldn't be negotiating if the sanctions were ineffective. My experience with the sanctions is out of date. But ten years ago I found them to be quite effective, in fact I found it hard to convince Americans to sell anything to Iran even if the items were explicitly allowed. We bought many things from American companies including non-prescription medical drugs and medical equipment after the earthquake, up to 3 million dollar each massive quarry trucks, all of which we re-sold to the Iranians without violating the sanctions, with legal Commerce department export certificates. None of which the OEMs were willing to sell directly to the Iranians. Yes, we made money on the resales but mainly we did it as a favor to our long standing customers in Iran.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Simple Don's longish article is right on the money and factual.

It is well written and concise. Good analysis Simple Don. But Angelo, it doesn't seem to support what you've been saying.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But what sort of verification do we have with Iran?

Why do you even bother to ask? It is pretty clear there is no level of verification that will satisfy you, since you've made up your mind that the only thing Iran - and all Muslims for that matter - want is to wipe out all the Jews.

Iran has a track record of trying to cheat on the NPT.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can we just replay what Loren said about Iraq back in 2003 and close this thread, he obviously did not learn anything new then.

I said we were justified in striking him, I didn't say we had to conquer him. Rather than an invasion I favored removing those "palaces" one night.

 

[Ford]

Why do you even bother to ask? It is pretty clear there is no level of verification that will satisfy you, since you've made up your mind that the only thing Iran - and all Muslims for that matter - want is to wipe out all the Jews.

Iran has a track record of trying to cheat on the NPT.

So there is no level of verification that will satisfy you. Next question I guess is, do you favor nuclear strikes on Iran, conventional strikes, or some form of chemical warfare that wipes out Muslims?

 

[angelo]

Can we just replay what Loren said about Iraq back in 2003 and close this thread, he obviously did not learn anything new then.

I said we were justified in striking him, I didn't say we had to conquer him. Rather than an invasion I favored removing those "palaces" one night.

Removing Saddam Hussein was most likely the biggest blunder of US foreign policy in the history of the modern era. Saddam was the only man capable of controlling all those various tribes. Even if he did use strong arm action, it was justified as events there have proven since his downfall.

 

[Togo]

These are the facts.

The rational behind almost all of the conflicts in the Middle East is religion.

Meh.. it's identity politics, which is bound up with religion.

Religion is irrational.

In this context, only in the same way as nationalism. I don't see a different between People shouting 'Allah Akbar' and 'we're number one'

Israel is not a theocracy, the population is heavily Jewish, about 75%, but a healthy 20% of those consider themselves to be atheists that presumably follow Jewish traditions.

By that reasoning, nor is Iran.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Iran has a track record of trying to cheat on the NPT.

So there is no level of verification that will satisfy you. Next question I guess is, do you favor nuclear strikes on Iran, conventional strikes, or some form of chemical warfare that wipes out Muslims?

That's not a rebuttal.

 

[Ford]

So there is no level of verification that will satisfy you. Next question I guess is, do you favor nuclear strikes on Iran, conventional strikes, or some form of chemical warfare that wipes out Muslims?

That's not a rebuttal.

Well you're not exactly full of solutions...just garden variety Islamophobia.