Surprise, surprise! "Mattress Girl" was (very likely) not raped after all.

[Tom Sawyer]

What if her art were "calling out" a crime from her childhood? If she created a performance art about her own childhood abuse to shine a light on the subject? Should that be shut down as well?

Well, there's a huge difference between "I am a rape victim and I want to call attention to the problem of getting convictions for this type of crime" and "this guy here is a rapist". The first one is fine. The second is not.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Here is the question. This person wronged her terribly. She doesn't report it to the Police?

Given the way rape victims are treated this does not surprise me even a little. It provides no evidence or proof one way or the other. Rape victims who have gone to police have been cruelly treated, some turning to suicide. There are, what's the current number, FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND untested rape kits int eh USA? And people still wonder why some rape victims do not go to police? I know for certain that many rape victims will wait to see if they are pregnant, hoping to avoid the detestable re-victimization that they feel they are likely to face unless it is necessary.

And if she wasn't hauling a mattress around a collegiate campus, I'd agree with you. That there are definitely some victims that don't want to go to the Police to deal with the shaming, reliving the event, the people out there that'd call her a liar.

But we are talking about a woman that went to the Campus and then developed an "art thesis" around it. So I don't feel that reason is applicable in this case.

Is her Major the proper venue to deal with a crime? This ignores the mind numbing realization this counted as "art". This is where Columbia could be culpable. They allowed her to create a venue for a rather public calling out (we don't even allow calling out at this web board) regarding a serious crime, that seems to be big enough to warrant hauling a mattress around for months (?) but not going to the police? Shouldn't the school have encouraged another tact here?

What if her art were "calling out" a crime from her childhood?

Lets not dwell on hypothetical. The question is, is her major the proper venue for dealing with a serious crime? In the US, we have a judicial system that is dedicated to dealing with crimes. Should Columbia have suggested to her to take her issue to the court, instead of creating "art". The school had a hearing, they did not find the male guilty.

 

[Derec]

Given the way rape victims are treated this does not surprise me even a little.

And how are the alleged victims supposedly being treated? I guess asking for evidence and showing any hint of reluctance to accept her story wholesale is considered "bad treatment" now.

It provides no evidence or proof one way or the other. Rape victims who have gone to police have been cruelly treated, some turning to suicide.

Or it could be that the accusation and suicide stem from the same mental illness. What do you consider a "cruel treatment"? Being skeptical of the claims? Asking for evidence? Asking follow-up questions in light of inconsistencies?

There are, what's the current number, FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND untested rape kits int eh USA?

And they should be tested. No argument there. But in this case there was no rape kit and sex itself wasn't disputed. So I fail to see the relevance.

And people still wonder why some rape victims do not go to police? I know for certain that many rape victims will wait to see if they are pregnant, hoping to avoid the detestable re-victimization that they feel they are likely to face unless it is necessary.

But by that time any physical evidence is long gone and then you expect the accuser to be believed implicitly even though it's purely "he said she said".

What if her art were "calling out" a crime from her childhood? If she created a performance art about her own childhood abuse to shine a light on the subject? Should that be shut down as well?

If she accused a specific person I think he'd have recourse as well.

 

[Derec]

So she is a bit ashamed of her sexual interests. So? This is just slut-shaming. Trying to make her out as a person who would do anything with anyone only because she´s fun in bed.

No it is not "slut shaming". It is shaming of people who lie when making serious accusations against others.

Liking anal sex doesn't make her a bad person. Lying about liking anal sex when accusing a fellow student of anally raping her does.

Proving and disproving rape is very hard. The fact that he was cleared doesn´t prove he didn´t do it. Also doesn´t prove he did either. Our modern western legal system is ill equipped to try rape. That´s just a sad fact.

Our modern western system is actually well equipped to deal with it, at least in theory. By demanding proof beyond a reasonable doubt it protects those falsely accused. Unlike the Obama/Biden college kangaroo court system which has a high danger of false positives due to very low burden of proof (and Matressgirl could not even meet that!) and very restricted ability of the accused to defend himself.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And how are the alleged victims supposedly being treated? I guess asking for evidence and showing any hint of reluctance to accept her story wholesale is considered "bad treatment" now.

I want to throw up.

 

[Derec]

I want to throw up.

Why? The job of the police is not to take her story at face value without question. Their job is to investigate an alleged crime, which involves asking questions (including embarrassing questions) and gather evidence. And if they uncover inconsistencies in her story, they are not to ignore it, even if follow up questions hurt her feelings.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

And how are the alleged victims supposedly being treated? I guess asking for evidence and showing any hint of reluctance to accept her story wholesale is considered "bad treatment" now.

I want to throw up.

These threads about Derec's crusade for the falsely accused of rape are always interesting reads for me. On the one hand, he makes some very good points, which often get dismissed with hostility and insults against him instead of logic or reason. But on the other hand, he brings the same cases up over and over and over and just doesn't seem to want to move on to another topic. Very tenacious. Borderline obsessed.

 

[Derec]

I want to throw up.

These threads about Derec's crusade for the falsely accused of rape are always interesting reads for me. On the one hand, he makes some very good points, which often get dismissed with hostility and insults against him instead of logic or reason. But on the other hand, he brings the same cases up over and over and over and just doesn't seem to want to move on to another topic. Very tenacious. Borderline obsessed.

I brought this case up again because there were new developments (lawsuits, disclosure of Facebook messages) that made a new thread relevant. I only talked about this particular case once before, and it wasn't even its own thread.

Mattress Girl == Overly Attached Girlfriend

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

This plays out constantly in the real world. We have several cases of it right here in my small town. It's not unique to this man or this university.

A woman is accused of taking her parents' assets. It is rumored that it was not legally done. They did not take her to court, but the talk starts and goes on. and on. and on. For decades.

A man is arrested for domestic violence. Evidence comes to light that causes all charges to be dropped. The accusations go on and on and on and on, publicly, constantly, even from the domestic partner who dropped the charges.

A town worker is accused of sleeping on the job. No charges are brought, but the accusations go on and on and on.

Yes, this is my question. At what point do you feel it become too much? Snide looks, chit-chat at parties, following you around, posting your face on posters around town, cornering your coworkers to tell them what you've done, yelling into a megaphone outside your house about how you're a criminal, etc. Is there a point at which you feel a line is crossed and they've gone too far?

This is an excellent question. I'd put the line at a little passed chit-chat at parties. If they are following you around or posting your face on posters etc... I think that is where I'd see a valid case to get a cease and desist order against them, and maybe damages for defamation. It doesn't matter to me if the guy actually did what he is accused of. If the charges are dismissed or the court finds him not guilty, that should be it. To keep attacking him is vigilantism.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I want to throw up.

These threads about Derec's crusade for the falsely accused of rape are always interesting reads for me. On the one hand, he makes some very good points, which often get dismissed with hostility and insults against him instead of logic or reason.

I think people are just sick and tired of his strawman "You think women never lie about rape" bullshit.

He is a Chick Track about rape.

 

[Rhea]

This plays out constantly in the real world. We have several cases of it right here in my small town. It's not unique to this man or this university.

A woman is accused of taking her parents' assets. It is rumored that it was not legally done. They did not take her to court, but the talk starts and goes on. and on. and on. For decades.

A man is arrested for domestic violence. Evidence comes to light that causes all charges to be dropped. The accusations go on and on and on and on, publicly, constantly, even from the domestic partner who dropped the charges.

A town worker is accused of sleeping on the job. No charges are brought, but the accusations go on and on and on.

Yes, this is my question. At what point do you feel it become too much? Snide looks, chit-chat at parties, following you around, posting your face on posters around town, cornering your coworkers to tell them what you've done, yelling into a megaphone outside your house about how you're a criminal, etc. Is there a point at which you feel a line is crossed and they've gone too far?

Not yet. They haven't gotten to the megaphone yet - although they have used the newspaper and the internet, as well as billboards, so maybe that is equivalent. I mean, _I_ think they've gone too far for decency. But not too far for the law.

 

[DrZoidberg]

No it is not "slut shaming". It is shaming of people who lie when making serious accusations against others.

Liking anal sex doesn't make her a bad person. Lying about liking anal sex when accusing a fellow student of anally raping her does.

The fact that she likes anal sex doesn´t mean she can´t be raped in the ass. Whether or not she likes it up the ass is completely irrelevant. Lying about it make no difference. It´s nobody else´s business what kind of sex she likes. It has no relevance. Which is perhaps why she lied about it?

Proving and disproving rape is very hard. The fact that he was cleared doesn´t prove he didn´t do it. Also doesn´t prove he did either. Our modern western legal system is ill equipped to try rape. That´s just a sad fact.

Our modern western system is actually well equipped to deal with it, at least in theory. By demanding proof beyond a reasonable doubt it protects those falsely accused. Unlike the Obama/Biden college kangaroo court system which has a high danger of false positives due to very low burden of proof (and Matressgirl could not even meet that!) and very restricted ability of the accused to defend himself.

No, because real rape victims are traumatised and people who are traumatised behave irrationally. They do incredibly bizarre things. So nothing they say or do will prove shit in court. Nothing about their character proves anything. Nothing about their sexual tastes or behaviours prove anything.

 

[Derec]

The fact that she likes anal sex doesn´t mean she can´t be raped in the ass.

True but mere possibility she was raped is not enough. Not even close.

Whether or not she likes it up the ass is completely irrelevant.

Then perhaps she should not have lied about not talking to Paul about having anal sex with him. Nothing wrong with liking anal, but lying about talking about doing anal makes everything she says less trustworthy.

Lying about it make no difference. It´s nobody else´s business what kind of sex she likes. It has no relevance. Which is perhaps why she lied about it?

She lied about things relevant to her rape claim. Paul claims anal sex was consensual and that is bolstered by them talking about it. Her lying about it weakens her case since if she is willing to lie about that she might be lying about other things as well.

No,

You don't believe in requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt for rape claims? You don't believe in presumption of innocence?

because real rape victims are traumatised and people who are traumatised behave irrationally.

So we should just punish men accused of rape with no regard to pesky things like evidence?

They do incredibly bizarre things.

Like lie about being raped.

So nothing they say or do will prove shit in court.

If you can't prove guilt you must acquit. Anything else is unworthy of the term "justice".

Nothing about their character proves anything. Nothing about their sexual tastes or behaviours prove anything.

"Sexual tastes" are irrelevant in themselves but making false statements as part of your allegation is very much relevant. Allegedly being "traumatized" is not a good excuse here, especially since it presumes the very thing in question (whether or not she was actually raped).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Frankly there is no clarity. There is no evidence the rape is a lie. There is no evidence it isn't a lie.

There are her communications that are far more suggestive of a woman mad because she didn't get the man she wanted than of a rape victim.

 

[Trausti]

Frankly there is no clarity. There is no evidence the rape is a lie. There is no evidence it isn't a lie.

There are her communications that are far more suggestive of a woman mad because she didn't get the man she wanted than of a rape victim.

I think the attention-seeking behavior in all this suggests a bit of Munchausen.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nothing like quotes without context.

But it's a lawsuit. You don't go making claims in a lawsuit filing that won't stand up to scrutiny. Thus we can be pretty sure this isn't taken out of context.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are people advocating a gag-order such that rape victims may not accuse anyone publicly? A gag order with financial penalties? Incarceration?
Do they also advocate that this be applied to slut-shamers? Does that include people who post on a message board that the victim is a liar?

It's called libel and slander. Freedom of speech doesn't mean no accountability for that speech.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here is the question. This person wronged her terribly. She doesn't report it to the Police?

Is her Major the proper venue to deal with a crime? This ignores the mind numbing realization this counted as "art". This is where Columbia could be culpable. They allowed her to create a venue for a rather public calling out (we don't even allow calling out at this web board) regarding a serious crime, that seems to be big enough to warrant hauling a mattress around for months (?) but not going to the police? Shouldn't the school have encouraged another tact here?

I won't fault her for not reporting a rape, many women choose not to report rapes.

However, those reasons fly out the window when she makes a spectacle of the situation like this one has. If you want justice go to the cops. The law quite correctly frowns upon self-help solutions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And how are the alleged victims supposedly being treated? I guess asking for evidence and showing any hint of reluctance to accept her story wholesale is considered "bad treatment" now.

I want to throw up.

Is your name Edwin Meese?

 

[zorq]

Frankly there is no clarity. There is no evidence the rape is a lie. There is no evidence it isn't a lie.

There are her communications that are far more suggestive of a woman mad because she didn't get the man she wanted than of a rape victim.

So you think that those offer her a motive to try to destroy this man's life. On the other hand there are two other women who have accused the man of sexually assaulting them. Neither of these things tell us if there was actually a rape.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.

THERE IS NO CLARITY.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing like quotes without context.

But it's a lawsuit. You don't go making claims in a lawsuit filing that won't stand up to scrutiny. Thus we can be pretty sure this isn't taken out of context.

We can't assume that at all. Have you ever met a lawyer?