most dangerous dog breeds, least dangerous dog breeds, and why

[laughing dog]

[What I find ridiculous is the claim that a person is "a fool" if they feel fear when a large strange dog has their teeth clamped on their side.

I wonder how many of the people who think people shouldn't be afraid when a large strange dog has their teeth clamped on you because they haven't drawn blood, have ever been in a situation where a large strange dog has their teeth clamped on to their side.

I said it and it has happened to me and I was not afraid. Because it was obvious from the dog's demeanor and actions that the dog was not trying to harm me. If the dog had been trying to harm me, I would have been afraid and probably reacted differently.

 

[Ford]

I guess now there will be a parade of people telling me that my dad trained vicious attack dogs, that I should have pressed charges, and that my parents were irresponsible pet owners for not having communicated all the rules for being around the dogs in a memo. Bloody caninephiles!

This is a strawman and you know it. I don't know if you wanted to perpetuate the stereotype of the careless owner unconcerned about the safety of others, but using a strawman to paint non-dog people as idiots and rolling your eyes at what you consider are their ridiculous concerns would certainly be one way to accomplish it.

You misread my intent. What I was attempting to do with this comment was to mock everyone who has come along and misrepresented the details of the story I originally posted.


What was a situation that was - in real life - a humorous tale of how one hapless guy ran afoul of a very well trained dog has been turned into something which doesn't in the least resemble the actual incident...if you can even call it an incident. This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. Turned into an "attack" by an "attack dog" and a situation where OSHA should have been dragged in, dogs destroyed, and the owner of the business held liable for PTSD and mental trauma.


But it was never like that, and no matter how many times I've said that everyone had a good laugh after it happened, people here have gone out of their way to turn it into an act of unmitigated violence and terror. Ever since I posted the original story, an edifice of straw has been erected, and now you're accusing me of erecting a straw man?


Give me a fucking break already! The amount of hyperbole and bullshit generated by my little tale is so massive that I seriously regret relating the story in the first place.

 

[Rhea]

The employee swatted the dog because it was in his business and he wanted the dog to go away.

Instead of a dog, if had been a person, would you still think swatting the person was a reasonable reaction?

So... interesting question. I'm thinking back to my days as a teen hitting bars and guys getting in my business and "nudging several times" and, well, actually, yah, swatting was what it took.

Nowadays I'd be more restrained probably.

But the scenarios would involve a strange man coming in unexpectedly to a place I knew I was allowed to be, getting all touchy with me... and yeah, still swatting.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

ApostateAbe,

What is race and why are some characteristic racial and other are not?

 

[Rhea]

You misread my intent. What I was attempting to do with this comment was to mock everyone who has come along and misrepresented the details of the story I originally posted.



Give me a fucking break already! The amount of hyperbole and bullshit generated by my little tale is so massive that I seriously regret relating the story in the first place.

Fair enough, I make a new picture of the incident.
And I submit that there's a reason people have been a little alarmed at the laugh over thinking a dog clamping on is "harmless."

Maybe it's those of us who have had other dogs clamping on and thinking, the owner of the dog in my story also thought it was harmless. I didn't feel it was harmless. So yeah, I put myself in the position of having another dog with it's teeth on me and I'm not sensing the humor.

I can see now that you say the employee also laughed. In that situation. That's fine. I hope you can acknowledge that other owners have also laughed and thought it was a good joke - while the bite victim is NOT also laughing. And that's a pretty warped situation, getting bitten by a dog and having the owner laugh and say it's just a lot of nothing and why didn't you just react right?

 

[Toni]

And the discussion has been about the responsibility of the owner whose dog "nudged [the new employee] a couple of times" and all of the responses saying this is such a normal and terrific thing for this owner to do to a new employee.

Bull. Shit.

No one has said any such thing.

And the employee who apparently "made the mistake of trying to swat her away" and for his efforts at getting the dog away from himself got "clamped onto his side" and this being normal, upright and proper for this employee to endure.

Bull shit again. No one has said any such thing.

Swatting at a dog is ineffectual and seen by the dog as somewhat aggressive. I am sure you know enough about animal behavior to know that different animals see behaviors in different ways. Including people.

Oh, good doggie. What a clever doggie dragging him outside to the owner.

What she did was clever and effective, which is more than I can say for what the human man did.

What a dumb employee for not knowing exactly how to lovingly get the doggie away.

His actions did not get the effect he wanted. Hers got what she wanted. Who was more clever in that situation.

She's so sweet, didn't break the skin.

Not breaking skin is a sign of an extremely well trained dog who was in control of her emotions and the situation. Clearly, a dog as large as a German Shepherd is quite capable of doing very serious harm or even killing a human. A less well trained dog could have easily inadvertently harmed the human. A poorly trained dog could have become excited and unpredictable and actually attacked and harmed the man.

This is so righteous. What meanies are saying this was anything other than 100% the fault of the foolish new employee not knowing exactly how to deal with this particular doggie.

So not anything anyone said.

What an idiot, right? No common sense. You can see who doesn't like doggies! Anyone who would object to getting nudged by a dog that you can't get to back off.

SWATTING at a dog is foolish and ineffective. I've never known it to be effective in any circumstance, ever. Or with humans, for that matter, except when done in fun, as pretending to swat at someone who told a slightly off color joke. I cannot imagine anyone thinking this would be a good idea. In all probability, the employee did not think at all. He was mildly annoyed and rather than actually assess the situation: " I'm the new guy at work; this looks like a guard dog. The dog doesn't know me and it's annoying me with its nudges. I wanted it to go away. How can I make that happen?" He just swats at it (assuming I am reading Ford's description correctly.) Why would anyone in the world think this would be effective?

BTW, Ford didn't describe any other efforts to get the dog to back off. That is your own invention.

Anyone who would consider it NOT harmless to have a sweet, terrific obedient doggie "clamped to one's side"

I haven't read a single person's claim as you have stated. Of course it would be frightening to be grabbed by a dog and taken anywhere. I imagine it would have been made somewhat worse to realize that a)your'e the new guy and this is one of first experiences you will be having with the boss and b) you've just shown yourself to be a pretty poor problem solver c) but not a complete idiot as you don't fight the dog on the way to the boss.

Yes, I know there are nasty dogs. We have no leash law in our town and I jog. Oh, yes, I know about them. And every one has an owner who thinks I'm an idiot for not stopping my jog and wanting to pet and stroke and love on their precious sweetie. Because that's how you deal with dogs, right? They don't want you to run by ignoring them, they just want a little loving! If I just get to know them, they'll be so nice! If I just rub their little darling heads and say lovie lovie lovie!

You like to jog in areas where dogs are unleashed. OK, then you need to know how to do it safely. You need to realize that running/jogging triggers a prey drive in dogs and most will want to run after you. Some, those who are accustomed to running with their owners may just want to run by your side. But untrained dogs will simply be driven to want to chase after you. That's simply a fact.

Stopping is usually the correct thing to do, even if it is inconvenient and scary. I would not suggest you reach out to pet any strange dog, ever. I would call out to see if you can get the owner to come and leash the dog. If the owner tried to tell you how harmless their dog was, I would simply calmly remind the owner that a dog chasing someone is a dangerous situation. Because it is.

To be honest, I'd pick a different area to jog because being chased by dogs is annoying, at best and usually dangerous. Even the dog doesn't nip or bite, it can trip you and result in a serious injury to you. That is not a good thing.

You may think I am an idiot but consider this: I've had several strange dogs go after me in very aggressive ways: head low, snarling, growling, lunging. I've never been bitten. I've never struck the dog. I've never swatted at the dog and only once has the owner ever come to call the dog off (and then apologize. I was a kid on my bike with my little sister. Neither of us was hurt.) You might consider that I've had better luck in avoiding bites than you have because maybe I know something about dogs. This is not magic. It's skill and knowledge. It's also not infallible. There was some luck involved but the best bit of luck is that I had a father who taught me how to behave around animals.

And if the employee doesn't want to be touched by the dog, he gets it clamped on his side and everyone thinks this is normal and harmless and it IS NOT. It is freaky and dangerous.

There was nothing freaky about it. I realize it freaks you out but that doesn't mean that it was freaky. Live bait freaks out my husband but leeches are not freaky. Creepy to some people but really not freaky.

However, it was dangerous. The guy didn't know the dog. The dog could have been a dangerous dog. The guy could have done more stupid stuff and actually gotten hurt. According to Ford, the employee wasn't hurt. Everybody saw it as a silly story about a guy's first day on the job.

Where do you get this idea that it is common? You've told us all dogs are different. So tell us, what EXACTLY should that employee have done to GUARANTEE a lovely outcome with the sweet charming well behaved doggie who was nudging at him?

Please let us know so we won't be idiots any more.

A dog who is nudging at you wants something. Maybe what it wants is to be petted. Maybe what it wants is for you to give it food or water or to let it out or to follow it. My dogs have indicated all of these wants to me by nudging me with their nose. And btw, I've also completely ignored the dog if I am pretty sure I know what it wants and I'm not interested. For instance: to be let out again although it was just outside and bumped the door, asking to be let in again. One dog will do this as long as I will let it in and out. I have a low limit for that kind of thing.

In a low calm voice, speak to the dog: Ask what it wants. Offer a hand to sniff if it seems safe. Usually, with a trained dog, if you ask what it wants, it will indicate what it wants. In this case, my guess--and it is only a guess--is that it would have led the guy to the boss in order for the boss to ok the guy. Without the mouth part.

If it seems unsafe to offer your hand to the dog to sniff, then call out to see if other humans are near. This was a shop, apparently not a large one. The boss was nearby.

The other thing that one could do if the above doesn't seem practical or safe: In a firm low register voice, tell the dog to "Git" and point away, arm extended, in a firm way.

If that seems unsafe,then the best thing to do is to simply calmly stay still and wait. Either help will come or the dog will leave.

 

[Toni]

You misread my intent. What I was attempting to do with this comment was to mock everyone who has come along and misrepresented the details of the story I originally posted.



Give me a fucking break already! The amount of hyperbole and bullshit generated by my little tale is so massive that I seriously regret relating the story in the first place.

Fair enough, I make a new picture of the incident.
And I submit that there's a reason people have been a little alarmed at the laugh over thinking a dog clamping on is "harmless."

Maybe it's those of us who have had other dogs clamping on and thinking, the owner of the dog in my story also thought it was harmless. I didn't feel it was harmless. So yeah, I put myself in the position of having another dog with it's teeth on me and I'm not sensing the humor.

I can see now that you say the employee also laughed. In that situation. That's fine. I hope you can acknowledge that other owners have also laughed and thought it was a good joke - while the bite victim is NOT also laughing. And that's a pretty warped situation, getting bitten by a dog and having the owner laugh and say it's just a lot of nothing and why didn't you just react right?

Again: skin was not broken. The employee was not harmed. The dog grasped the man with his teeth because he lacks hands and opposable thumbs and because the man wasn't smart enough or willing to simply follow the dog as the dog was trying to request.

If the dog had bitten him, then that would have broken skin and caused harm and we'd all be talking about this situation quite differently.

- - - Updated - - -

Instead of a dog, if had been a person, would you still think swatting the person was a reasonable reaction?

So... interesting question. I'm thinking back to my days as a teen hitting bars and guys getting in my business and "nudging several times" and, well, actually, yah, swatting was what it took.

Nowadays I'd be more restrained probably.

But the scenarios would involve a strange man coming in unexpectedly to a place I knew I was allowed to be, getting all touchy with me... and yeah, still swatting.

Decking is so much more effective. Tends to discourage attempts by others, as well.

 

[Metaphor]

What was a situation that was - in real life - a humorous tale of how one hapless guy

Why was the dog owner not regarded as 'hapless'? Why didn't the owner notify the employee there was a guard dog? Or did he?

But it was never like that, and no matter how many times I've said that everyone had a good laugh after it happened,

I've pointed out you never talked to the employee, only the employer. I've pointed out that people can laugh about a situation afterwards, even if the situation at the time was nothing to laugh about.

people here have gone out of their way to turn it into an act of unmitigated violence and terror. Ever since I posted the original story, an edifice of straw has been erected, and now you're accusing me of erecting a straw man?

No: you posted a story thinking it supported a point that the story does not in fact support.

 

[Metaphor]

If the dog had bitten him, then that would have broken skin and caused harm and we'd all be talking about this situation quite differently.

I suspect that no, not everyone would regard the situation 'quite differently'.

Since you already believe the employee to be an idiot in his reaction and only by the grace of an exemplary dog and an exemplary trainer was the employee spared a worse fate, you might concede he was harmed by being bitten but it does not seem to me you wouldn't continue blaming the employee.

 

[Ford]

I've pointed out you never talked to the employee, only the employer.

No, you imagined that was the case, because it fit with the narrative you were trying desperately to establish.


You don't know any of the people involved. In fact if I asked you wouldn't be able to pinpoint where or when it happened, the type of business where it happened, or any other details of the event.

You are extrapolating everything based upon your own personal bias and your desire to paint others as "caninephiles."


That's the most absurd part of this whole affair. You - who couldn't pinpoint where this happened on a map if I paid you - are telling me what went down in a situation that involved people (and dogs) who lived in my house. Friends and family members I've known since the late 1980s.


But because some dog bit you once upon a time, you know better than me what happened on this one day?

 

[Toni]

If the dog had bitten him, then that would have broken skin and caused harm and we'd all be talking about this situation quite differently.

I suspect that no, not everyone would regard the situation 'quite differently'.

Since you already believe the employee to be an idiot in his reaction and only by the grace of an exemplary dog and an exemplary trainer was the employee spared a worse fate, you might concede he was harmed by being bitten but it does not seem to me you wouldn't continue blaming the employee.

Interesting to see mind reading as one of your claimed talents.

 

[Metaphor]

But because some dog bit you once upon a time, you know better than me what happened on this one day?

So, did you talk to the employee or not? I've asked you this point blank several times.

- - - Updated - - -

I suspect that no, not everyone would regard the situation 'quite differently'.

Since you already believe the employee to be an idiot in his reaction and only by the grace of an exemplary dog and an exemplary trainer was the employee spared a worse fate, you might concede he was harmed by being bitten but it does not seem to me you wouldn't continue blaming the employee.

Interesting to see mind reading as one of your claimed talents.

It isn't mind reading. If you were being logically consistent, you'd say the employee's behaviour was wrong no matter that he was fortunate he had a well trained dog.

Or do you think whether the employee's actions were right or wrong depends on how the dog reacts? That seems to me a strange position to take, like saying drunk driving is wrong if you have an accident, but otherwise it's okay.

 

[Ford]

So, did you talk to the employee or not? I've asked you this point blank several times.

And I haven't bothered to answer because after stating that "everyone had a good laugh afterwards" on multiple occasions it would have been obvious.



Apparently, though, obvious isn't good enough for people who are hell-bent on building a false narrative. Which leads me to my next question:



Did you talk to the employee?




Don't be shy. You've asserted yourself to be a credible witness. You've claimed to know what he felt. His fears. How he was "dragged" by the dog. How terrified he was.




What was his name?





When you can tell me that, I'll get back to you.

 

[Bacillus anthracis]

I find it rather insulting to claim that people are foolish to be afraid if they find themselves in such a situation.

A person is foolish if they encounter a large dog and do not at least have some healthy fear of the thing. When I used to jog, if I'd see someone walking a medium to large sized dog, I'd just cross the street because a dog's nature may be protective and they also have the chase instinct. And it was wiser and easier for me to cross the street than hope the other party would do so. If one is not familiar with a good size dog already, then they should act prudently.

I personally have never been bitten by a dog bigger than one I could wear as a winter boot. Nipping little bastards. If big dogs bit like those little fuckers do, they'd all be euthanized in a matter of months.

Anyway, dogs are usually a product of their owners although negligent breeding practices can lead to bad things.

 

[Metaphor]

And I haven't bothered to answer because after stating that "everyone had a good laugh afterwards" on multiple occasions it would have been obvious.

The only obvious thing is your continual evasion. Did you talk to the employee or not? I can tell anyone a story and assure you all the characters had a good laugh afterwards. That doesn't mean you've spoken to everyone and know that's the case. It also doesn't mean people weren't frightened at the time. I've laughed about things afterward that I never would have laughed at at the time.

Apparently, though, obvious isn't good enough for people who are hell-bent on building a false narrative. Which leads me to my next question:

Asking questions, and not assuming things, does not mean I'm hell-bent on building a false narrative. It means I'm asking questions and not assuming things.

Did you talk to the employee?

Don't be shy. You've asserted yourself to be a credible witness. You've claimed to know what he felt.

Ludicrous. I said it were possible he were frightened, and I asserted that I may have been frightened were I in the same position.

His fears. How he was "dragged" by the dog. How terrified he was.

What was his name?

When you can tell me that, I'll get back to you.

Did you talk to the employee?

 

[Ford]

Did you talk to the employee?

What was his name?

 

[Metaphor]

Did you talk to the employee?

What was his name?

Cecil.

 

[Archimedes]

[What I find ridiculous is the claim that a person is "a fool" if they feel fear when a large strange dog has their teeth clamped on their side.

I wonder how many of the people who think people shouldn't be afraid when a large strange dog has their teeth clamped on you because they haven't drawn blood, have ever been in a situation where a large strange dog has their teeth clamped on to their side.

I said it and it has happened to me and I was not afraid. Because it was obvious from the dog's demeanor and actions that the dog was not trying to harm me. If the dog had been trying to harm me, I would have been afraid and probably reacted differently.

and you think others in the situation of having feared when a strange German shepherd had their teeth clamped on them "foolish" because you didn't feel afraid when a large strange dog had their teeth clamped on you?

frankly I find it hard to believe you really think anyone to be a fool for fearing in such a situation.

Sounds to me like the dog was indeed well trained enough to deal with an intruder without causing physical harm. I just find it bewildering the attitude that there's something strange about being afraid when a large dog has their teeth clamped upon you as if everyone should understand the nuances of how guard dogs should react in a given situation and how they should also start thinking rationally about the fact the the animal with their teeth clamped on them hasn't drawn blood.

I like dogs and gave never had a bad incidence with a dog but I'd shit myself with fear in that situation should it arise and if others don't understand how that would be the normal reaction instead of rationally think that this big fucking dog is merely clamping his teeth on my side because of his lack of opposable digits, then I really don't know what to say.

 

[Toni]

It isn't mind reading. If you were being logically consistent, you'd say the employee's behaviour was wrong no matter that he was fortunate he had a well trained dog.

Or do you think whether the employee's actions were right or wrong depends on how the dog reacts? That seems to me a strange position to take, like saying drunk driving is wrong if you have an accident, but otherwise it's okay.

I've stated multiple times that it is foolish and ineffective to swat at a large, strange dog. I also think it is a dangerous thing to do. You don't know the dog, the dog is large and therefore capable of great harm and most of all: swatting is not an effective strategy in getting a dog to back off. You are correct that the employee could have easily been seriously hurt. That is why what he did was foolish. And lucky that the dog was well trained.

 

[laughing dog]

I said it and it has happened to me and I was not afraid. Because it was obvious from the dog's demeanor and actions that the dog was not trying to harm me. If the dog had been trying to harm me, I would have been afraid and probably reacted differently.

and you think others in the situation of having feared when a strange German shepherd had their teeth clamped on them "foolish" because you didn't feel afraid when a large strange dog had their teeth clamped on you?

frankly I find it hard to believe you really think anyone to be a fool for fearing in such a situation.

Sounds to me like the dog was indeed well trained enough to deal with an intruder without causing physical harm. I just find it bewildering the attitude that there's something strange about being afraid when a large dog has their teeth clamped upon you as if everyone should understand the nuances of how guard dogs should react in a given situation and how they should also start thinking rationally about the fact the the animal with their teeth clamped on them hasn't drawn blood.

I think you should reread what I wrote in the context of the entire post. My explicit comment about being a fool was predicated on the previous comments of "A person could very well know whether their life was in imminent danger or not, depending on how the dog is acting. If the dog is not growling nor trying to throw you to the ground, you are not in immiment danger. If the jaws are firm but not breaking the skin, one is not in danger of one's life. " by me and followed by "A reasonable person would be in full-on fight-or-flight mode when being restrained by an unknown dog." In my view, it is foolish to immediately be "in full flight or fight mode" without regard to the actual situation because it might exacerbate the situation.