College Has Gotten 12 Times More Expensive in One Generation

[Trausti]

And this is at the same time some nations are moving to make college free.

This clearly shows a nations priorities.

Some nations would seek to educate as many as possible to the greatest extent as possible.

Some would try to saddle their youth with great debt and deny many the opportunity for advanced education. The diseased societies working on destructive principles would do this.

Yep, the other industrialized nations make it clear through their policy that they don't think enough of their citizens have advanced educations, while America has made it clear that we think too many of our citizens have advanced education.

The "free market" has spoken.

"I have to be honest, I really like this university even though it's not the most beautiful one, as you can see," says tour guide Valerija Schwarz, a Ph.D. student in German Literature.

Don't waste money on flashy buildings. Hmm.

Students in Germany also tend to stay local, so there aren't any dorms. There are no active student clubs, or big football stadium. And every lecture hall looks huge.

No dorms, no student activities, and large class sizes. Hmm.

To limit spending, Wolf says, professors teach more and earn less than their American colleagues.

Hmm.

And unlike their American counterparts, German universities have very little administrative bloat.

"Many administrative tasks for which you would have specialized personnel in the States is done by the teachers and professors here,” Wolf says.

Well there's a thought.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/education/learning-curve/how-german-higher-education-controls-costs

 

[untermensche]

Don't waste money on flashy buildings. Hmm.

Who exactly is saying we should do this? The problem is, the Universities have become corporatized. They think like corporations. They have been polluted by the corporate culture in the US.

Where workers are laid off as top executives increase their perks.

 

[laughing dog]

No dorms, no student activities, and large class sizes. Hmm.

That's right - get rid of all student activities and make all students local. As long as you have that magic wand, please cure cancer as well.

To limit spending, Wolf says, professors teach more and earn less than their American colleagues.

Hmm.

Hmm indeed. I'd like to see the actual data comparisons on that, because his descriptions are not consistent with what I have observed in many universities.

And unlike their American counterparts, German universities have very little administrative bloat.

"Many administrative tasks for which you would have specialized personnel in the States is done by the teachers and professors here,” Wolf says.

Well there's a thought.

Yes, it is called shared governance which has become an anathema in US higher education.

 

[Trausti]

Don't waste money on flashy buildings. Hmm.

Who exactly is saying we should do this? The problem is, the Universities have become corporatized. They think like corporations. They have been polluted by the corporate culture in the US.

Where workers are laid off as top executives increase their perks.

Don't think anyone here is saying that they should, just that they do. And this is one of he myriad of reasons that costs have exploded. American public universities act as if in a bubble, with little check on spending. State legislature threatening to cut funding? Fine, raise tuition. What are the students going to do? The federal department of education will just hand out more money. In a sense, making public education free might be a very good idea. The legislature can then say this is all the money you're getting, make it work and that's that. No frills high quality education.

- - - Updated - - -

That's right - get rid of all student activities and make all students local. As long as you have that magic wand, please cure cancer as well.

To limit spending, Wolf says, professors teach more and earn less than their American colleagues.

Hmm.

Hmm indeed. I'd like to see the actual data comparisons on that, because his descriptions are not consistent with what I have observed in many universities.

And unlike their American counterparts, German universities have very little administrative bloat.

"Many administrative tasks for which you would have specialized personnel in the States is done by the teachers and professors here,” Wolf says.

Well there's a thought.

Yes, it is called shared governance which has become an anathema in US higher education.

Well, if you don't like the way the Germans do it then don't suggest we should do it here. The German way shows the trade off. Free education vs. students paying tuition.

 

[laughing dog]

Who exactly is saying we should do this? The problem is, the Universities have become corporatized. They think like corporations. They have been polluted by the corporate culture in the US.

Where workers are laid off as top executives increase their perks.

Don't think anyone here is saying that they should, just that they do. And this is one of he myriad of reasons that costs have exploded. American public universities act as if in a bubble, with little check on spending. State legislature threatening to cut funding? Fine, raise tuition. What are the students going to do? The federal department of education will just hand out more money. In a sense, making public education free might be a very good idea. The legislature can then say this is all the money you're getting, make it work and that's that. No frills high quality education.

That's what legislatures do (at least in my region). The first thing that is sacrificed is quality.

 

[untermensche]

Who exactly is saying we should do this? The problem is, the Universities have become corporatized. They think like corporations. They have been polluted by the corporate culture in the US.

Where workers are laid off as top executives increase their perks.

Don't think anyone here is saying that they should, just that they do. And this is one of he myriad of reasons that costs have exploded. American public universities act as if in a bubble, with little check on spending. State legislature threatening to cut funding? Fine, raise tuition. What are the students going to do? The federal department of education will just hand out more money. In a sense, making public education free might be a very good idea. The legislature can then say this is all the money you're getting, make it work and that's that. No frills high quality education.

The reason costs have risen is because of flashy buildings and the cost being passed to students, not the government as it could be.

We could have the best looking Universities, with the highest paid teachers, and the lowest tuition.

If we wanted it more than we seem to want to kill Muslims half a planet away.

We could have a Renaissance, but too many prefer the Dark Ages.

 

[laughing dog]

Well, if you don't like the way the Germans do it then don't suggest we should do it here. The German way shows the trade off. Free education vs. students paying tuition.

Germany does what works for them. Getting rid of the "frills" puts any US institution at a competitive disadvantage for good students unless all institution eliminate those frills. Moreover, as the article admits, the quality of German higher education is not thought to be at the same level as much of the US. In addition, it is not clear that German professor teach more than US professors. Finally, shared governance is a good thing. The corporatization of higher education has led to administrative bloat with no observable increase in mangerial efficiency or quality of education.

 

[untermensche]

The US has many good no-frills institutions, or at least few frills.

They are called Community Colleges and they teach many people every year.

 

[J842P]

We could have the best looking Universities, with the highest paid teachers, and the lowest tuition.

If we wanted it more than we seem to want to kill Muslims half a planet away.

We could have a Renaissance, but too many prefer the Dark Ages.

QFT

 

[Trausti]

I don't know in these discussion whether the role of the Department of Education is seriously considered. In this, I mean, that American universities are fixated on the DOE's money bag like an addict to a needle. There is no right to federal education funding. The DOE is not in the Constitution; it's a creature of statute. Congress can vote tomorrow to abolish it. My suggestion would be that the DOE require that to qualify as an institution available to receive DOE funding - by way of student grants, loans, or otherwise - the institution cannot charge more than $X a credit hour. Not saying that a university could not charge more than $X a credit hour, just that it could not benefit from the DOE's coffers. I'd imagine universities would magically find a way to become efficient and less wasteful to remain on the federal dole.

 

[ksen]

I don't know in these discussion whether the role of the Department of Education is seriously considered. In this, I mean, that American universities are fixated on the DOE's money bag like an addict to a needle. There is no right to federal education funding. The DOE is not in the Constitution; it's a creature of statute. Congress can vote tomorrow to abolish it. My suggestion would be that the DOE require that to qualify as an institution available to receive DOE funding - by way of student grants, loans, or otherwise - the institution cannot charge more than $X a credit hour. Not saying that a university could not charge more than $X a credit hour, just that it could not benefit from the DOE's coffers. I'd imagine universities would magically find a way to become efficient and less wasteful to remain on the federal dole.

That would be socialism.

 

[Trausti]

Well, if you don't like the way the Germans do it then don't suggest we should do it here. The German way shows the trade off. Free education vs. students paying tuition.

Germany does what works for them. Getting rid of the "frills" puts any US institution at a competitive disadvantage for good students unless all institution eliminate those frills. Moreover, as the article admits, the quality of German higher education is not thought to be at the same level as much of the US. In addition, it is not clear that German professor teach more than US professors. Finally, shared governance is a good thing. The corporatization of higher education has led to administrative bloat with no observable increase in mangerial efficiency or quality of education.

Explains why Germany is a drag on the EU economy.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know in these discussion whether the role of the Department of Education is seriously considered. In this, I mean, that American universities are fixated on the DOE's money bag like an addict to a needle. There is no right to federal education funding. The DOE is not in the Constitution; it's a creature of statute. Congress can vote tomorrow to abolish it. My suggestion would be that the DOE require that to qualify as an institution available to receive DOE funding - by way of student grants, loans, or otherwise - the institution cannot charge more than $X a credit hour. Not saying that a university could not charge more than $X a credit hour, just that it could not benefit from the DOE's coffers. I'd imagine universities would magically find a way to become efficient and less wasteful to remain on the federal dole.

That would be socialism.

Huh? It would simply be the DOE acting as a market participant.

 

[NobleSavage]

What I love is how after they ass rape you on tuition and fees they bug you forever to donate money!

 

[laughing dog]

Germany does what works for them. Getting rid of the "frills" puts any US institution at a competitive disadvantage for good students unless all institution eliminate those frills. Moreover, as the article admits, the quality of German higher education is not thought to be at the same level as much of the US. In addition, it is not clear that German professor teach more than US professors. Finally, shared governance is a good thing. The corporatization of higher education has led to administrative bloat with no observable increase in mangerial efficiency or quality of education.

Explains why Germany is a drag on the EU economy.

No, it doesn't explain your non-sequitur.

Huh? It would simply be the DOE acting as a market participant.

By setting a price ceiling?

 

[ronburgundy]

Yep, the other industrialized nations make it clear through their policy that they don't think enough of their citizens have advanced educations, while America has made it clear that we think too many of our citizens have advanced education.

The "free market" has spoken.

"I have to be honest, I really like this university even though it's not the most beautiful one, as you can see," says tour guide Valerija Schwarz, a Ph.D. student in German Literature.

Don't waste money on flashy buildings. Hmm.

Any evidence at that most of the newer buildings are much "flashier" relative architecture of the time than the buildings made pre 1980 when tuitions were lower?

Students in Germany also tend to stay local, so there aren't any dorms. There are no active student clubs, or big football stadium. And every lecture hall looks huge.

No dorms, no student activities, and large class sizes. Hmm.

Dorms greatly lower the cost of an education to students, and that is the rising cost in question. Student activities cost next to nothing. The student to professor ratio is higher now than in the past, so class size cannot be a factor at all.

To limit spending, Wolf says, professors teach more and earn less than their American colleagues.

Hmm.

See above. US profs teach more classes and more students now than prior to tuition increases, so the their salaries cannot explain any of the tuition increase.
In addition, it is highly doubtful that US profs get paid more than German profs after adjusting for things like cost of living, which is much lower in Germany (rents and groceries are 35% lower, healthcare costs are much lower and publically subsidized).

And unlike their American counterparts, German universities have very little administrative bloat.

"Many administrative tasks for which you would have specialized personnel in the States is done by the teachers and professors here,” Wolf says.

Well there's a thought.

IT ain't much of a thought at all.
US profs already work about 60 hours per week, so when are they going to do that work? In Germany, "profs" are not real profs. They start as underling assistants to the real profs. IOW, they just call their "administrators" profs, so claiming they have fewer admin and the profs do all the work is meaningless nonsense. BTW, students all over the world (including Germany) try to come to US Universities, because they are the best. So, you whole effort to compare US to Germany is just silly.

 

[Valjean]

I can learn chemistry or history just as well in a quonset hut as in an ivy draped mansion, and if I'm going to school to learn chemistry I don't want to put myself in debt for the next 20 years paying for sports stadiums or subsidizing grown men and women playing with sticks and balls.

 

[Trausti]

Explains why Germany is a drag on the EU economy.

No, it doesn't explain your non-sequitur.

Huh? It would simply be the DOE acting as a market participant.

By setting a price ceiling?

How is it setting a price ceiling? When you go out to purchase a good or service, there is a limit to how much you will spend for that good or service. The government can do the same thing. A university can still charge whatever it wants, so long as a student (sans DOE) is willing to pay.

 

[Axulus]

Your tax and tuition dollars at work. Money well spent? Yes, they are beautiful, but at what cost? Most of these are public universities, but there are a few private mixed in (students qualify for aid and grants even at private universities).

Memorial Union, Oregon State University

Price Center, University of California San Diego

EMU Student Center, Eastern Michigan University

Geisel Library, UC San Diego

Rush University Medical Center Hospital

University of Minnesota

THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS – PAN AMERICAN
WELLNESS & RECREATIONAL SPORTS FACILITY

UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI – COLUMBIA
MIZZOUREC

UNIVERSITY OF IOWA
CAMPUS RECREATION AND WELLNESS CENTER

ILLINOIS STATE UNIVERSITY
STUDENT FITNESS CENTER

OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY
RECREATION & PHYSICAL ACTIVITY CENTER (RPAC)

COLORADO STATE UNIVERSITY
STUDENT RECREATION CENTER

VIRGINIA COMMONWEALTH UNIVERSITY
CARY STREET GYM

VALLEY PERFORMING ARTS CENTER
CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, NORTHRIDGE

WHARTON CENTER FOR PERFORMING ARTS
MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY

HYLTON PERFORMING ARTS CENTER
GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY, PRINCE WILLIAM CAMPUS

THELMA E. STEPHENS PERFORMING ARTS CENTER
IDAHO STATE UNIVERSITY

JOSEPH A. W. CLAYES III PERFORMING ARTS CENTER
CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY FULLERTON

North Carolina State University — James B. Hunt Jr. Library

Loyola University Chicago — Klarchek Information Commons

CATHEDRAL OF LEARNING, UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH

Boston University's Student Village

Two dorms in UC Davis' Cuarto Area have private pools

University of Michigan - North Quadrangle Residential and Academic Complex

Boston University student housing:

University of HI student housing:

 

[Trausti]

Your tax and tuition dollars at work. Money well spent? Yes, they are beautiful, but at what cost? Most of these are public universities, but there are a few private mixed in (students qualify for aid and grants even at private universities).

Memorial Union, Oregon State University

Think how many more beautiful buildings and waterfalls we could have if state legislatures would quit telling universities to reign in spending? Education is not the mission. The mission is to be fabulous!

 

[Axulus]

Your tax and tuition dollars at work. Money well spent? Yes, they are beautiful, but at what cost? Most of these are public universities, but there are a few private mixed in (students qualify for aid and grants even at private universities).

Memorial Union, Oregon State University

Think how many more beautiful buildings and waterfalls we could have if state legislatures would quit telling universities to reign in spending? Education is not the mission. The mission is to be fabulous!

It creates an arms race situation: your university has to keep up lest it slip in the rankings and slip in the quality of students it can attract, resulting in diminished prestige. That combined with the administrative bloat and plenty of slush money provided by direct government funding and near unlimited government guaranteed student loans is how we got to where we are today.

And what's the constant mantra we hear from the left about the situation? More taxes. Much more funding for higher ed! No more student debt, pay for it all!

The darlings of the left:

On May 19, 2015, [Bernie] Sanders introduced the College for All Act, which would use a Robin Hood tax of 50 cents on every "$100 of stock trades on stock sales" to fund tuition at four-year colleges and universities for students who meet admission standards.

A group of three Senate Democrats, including Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, this week introduced a resolution promoting debt-free public college. Several Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives put forward an accompanying proposal. The brief Senate resolution describes a plan to help states pay more for higher education, to increase financial aid to cover students' living expenses and to encourage innovation that would make college more affordable.

“A student at a public university today faces tuition prices that are more than 300 percent of what his or her parents faced just 30 years ago, and total outstanding student loan debt now stands at a staggering $1.3 trillion,” Warren said in a written statement. “Our country should be investing in higher education and working with colleges and universities to bring down tuition costs so that students don't have to take on crushing debt to get an education.”

The Washington Post reported that the push, which two liberal groups are supporting, is intended to encourage Hillary Clinton to make the plan part of her campaign proposals. The Progressive Change Campaign Committee and Demos released a policy paper this week that attempts to flesh out the plan. The groups are arranging events at 10 college campuses this week to promote it.

Yeah, that's all we need to do. Those universities just need some "encouragement" to be more innovative, and those costs will just come right down.