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Race, Intelligence, and Gould's variation of Pascal's Wager

OP said:
, it excessively punishes students with shame if they don't succeed in school, it excessively punishes parents with guilt for failing to raise smart children
You are saying that we need to show this because it'll help explain why some races are dumber.
Race is important for explaining population differences, but it is not so important for individuals.
Which is why you randomly test 100, 1000 as a group.
Still don't quite follow. Are you suggesting that we will get different distributions of test scores if we randomly test 1000 people of each race?
Based on your pleading that black students are failing in school cause they are genetically less smart, yes. Your premise implies that a random selection within each race should give you breakdowns that will be easy to assess which race had which results.

Honestly, it seems such an easy test to prove a conclusion that I'm surprised it hasn't been done yet. People that think intelligence is racial must be black and not too smart.
Using that method, we can only assign probabilities of race to each test score, not certain race values, as each racial distribution overlaps with each other along the sides. So, no, it is not expected from the known data that such a method would work as you suggest, even if the known data is correct.
 
I agree that Gould (as was common for him) was letting his political agenda undermine his reason and science in regard to the issue of IQ generally and IQ-genes in particular.
I agree his comment carries all the poor reasoning of Pascal's Wager and that he ignores two of the four cells.

I think an important issue is that the answer for each of those 4 cells is likely to depend on whether the question is "Are within group intelligence differences genetic?" versus "Are between racial group differences genetic?"
As I have argued with you before, these are completely different questions that likely have different objective answers. In addition, the consequences of belief are likely also much different.

Focusing on the former question about within group differences Gould is wrong that "we don't know". We know with more confidence than for many of his own claims about evolution that differences in IQ partly reflect biological and partly reflect environmental influences. We know that at the aggregate level, each type of factor is a big enough that for any specific person, their relative IQ standing could be almost entirely one or the other.

So then what are the consequences of personally believing this, scientifically supported position, to be true?
I would say there are little to no inherent negative consequences of believing that within group differences are a mix of genes and environment, because it leaves a chasm of room for any person to believe whatever they want about themselves or any other particular person. For anyone that tests poorly, they can believe that its all environment and that they can improve. It also has no clear policy implications, other than implying the wrongness of any policy that treats either low or high scorers as though they are a homogeneous group that would benefit from the same approach, since we know that people with the same score vary in how the different factors are responsible for their similar scores. OTOH, there are potential positives of believing this scientific position, because it frees us from either ideological and unscientific extreme. It allows us to recognize situation where there is rather compelling evidence that a person is struggling due to biologically grounded low IQ. Also, a bio-based low IQ does not in any way imply a policy of abandonment. We know that environment can impact the IQ of anyone. So, any and all low IQ people could be helped by education, but they best educational approach and most effective method will depend on the source of their current IQ level.

If we assume that all kids can be brought up to higher achievement levels by merely changing their environment, then we will fail to create instruction that is effective for many of them whose biological constraints require that they approach learning via an alternative strategy.

The issue is highly analogous to accepting the reality of differences in spatial ability. There is growing evidence that differences in general spatial ability has a causal impact on learning complex ideas, especially in science where the phenomena are often about relations among objects in space over time, from physics and chemistry to biology, neuroscience, and even history. Mostly the same folks that deny the relevance of IQ, try to deny the relevance of spatial abilities. One problem is the highly reliable difference between genders in spatial ability. The desire to deny any difference other than genitals (a position we often see here), leads to the denial of spatial ability as anything but a by-product of sexist socialization surrounding sports and science. Boys are encouraged in sports and science and thus develop spatial ability as by-product rather than ability being a causal factor in why they do better in science and thus select into it.
The "its all sexism" belief could do harm females. It presumes that all that is needed is more encouragement and females will perform equally well. IF that isn't true, then they will do worse. In contrast, if we acknowledge that some people have lower spatial ability and it impact science understanding, then we can design learning materials that convey the critical info in a manner that depends less upon their ability to mentally simulate dynamic relations among objects.
 
Um... Can we back up for a moment? Is everyone here in agreement that there is a genetic basis for race?
 
Um... Can we back up for a moment? Is everyone here in agreement that there is a genetic basis for race?
Certainly not everyone here, but I am in agreement with it, so long as "race" is understood to be the meaning used commonly in the science of biology ever since Darwin: populations varying in gene frequencies due to varying ancestral geography. It is NOT absolute genetic differences but merely differences in gene frequencies. That is what makes the theory of evolution possible.
 
I agree that Gould (as was common for him) was letting his political agenda undermine his reason and science in regard to the issue of IQ generally and IQ-genes in particular.
I agree his comment carries all the poor reasoning of Pascal's Wager and that he ignores two of the four cells.

I think an important issue is that the answer for each of those 4 cells is likely to depend on whether the question is "Are within group intelligence differences genetic?" versus "Are between racial group differences genetic?"
As I have argued with you before, these are completely different questions that likely have different objective answers. In addition, the consequences of belief are likely also much different.

Focusing on the former question about within group differences Gould is wrong that "we don't know". We know with more confidence than for many of his own claims about evolution that differences in IQ partly reflect biological and partly reflect environmental influences. We know that at the aggregate level, each type of factor is a big enough that for any specific person, their relative IQ standing could be almost entirely one or the other.

So then what are the consequences of personally believing this, scientifically supported position, to be true?
I would say there are little to no inherent negative consequences of believing that within group differences are a mix of genes and environment, because it leaves a chasm of room for any person to believe whatever they want about themselves or any other particular person. For anyone that tests poorly, they can believe that its all environment and that they can improve. It also has no clear policy implications, other than implying the wrongness of any policy that treats either low or high scorers as though they are a homogeneous group that would benefit from the same approach, since we know that people with the same score vary in how the different factors are responsible for their similar scores. OTOH, there are potential positives of believing this scientific position, because it frees us from either ideological and unscientific extreme. It allows us to recognize situation where there is rather compelling evidence that a person is struggling due to biologically grounded low IQ. Also, a bio-based low IQ does not in any way imply a policy of abandonment. We know that environment can impact the IQ of anyone. So, any and all low IQ people could be helped by education, but they best educational approach and most effective method will depend on the source of their current IQ level.

If we assume that all kids can be brought up to higher achievement levels by merely changing their environment, then we will fail to create instruction that is effective for many of them whose biological constraints require that they approach learning via an alternative strategy.

The issue is highly analogous to accepting the reality of differences in spatial ability. There is growing evidence that differences in general spatial ability has a causal impact on learning complex ideas, especially in science where the phenomena are often about relations among objects in space over time, from physics and chemistry to biology, neuroscience, and even history. Mostly the same folks that deny the relevance of IQ, try to deny the relevance of spatial abilities. One problem is the highly reliable difference between genders in spatial ability. The desire to deny any difference other than genitals (a position we often see here), leads to the denial of spatial ability as anything but a by-product of sexist socialization surrounding sports and science. Boys are encouraged in sports and science and thus develop spatial ability as by-product rather than ability being a causal factor in why they do better in science and thus select into it.
The "its all sexism" belief could do harm females. It presumes that all that is needed is more encouragement and females will perform equally well. IF that isn't true, then they will do worse. In contrast, if we acknowledge that some people have lower spatial ability and it impact science understanding, then we can design learning materials that convey the critical info in a manner that depends less upon their ability to mentally simulate dynamic relations among objects.
Yeah, that seems reasonable. I am roughly in agreement with all of that.
 
OP said:
, it excessively punishes students with shame if they don't succeed in school, it excessively punishes parents with guilt for failing to raise smart children
You are saying that we need to show this because it'll help explain why some races are dumber.
Race is important for explaining population differences, but it is not so important for individuals.
Which is why you randomly test 100, 1000 as a group.
Still don't quite follow. Are you suggesting that we will get different distributions of test scores if we randomly test 1000 people of each race?
Based on your pleading that black students are failing in school cause they are genetically less smart, yes. Your premise implies that a random selection within each race should give you breakdowns that will be easy to assess which race had which results.

Honestly, it seems such an easy test to prove a conclusion that I'm surprised it hasn't been done yet. People that think intelligence is racial must be black and not too smart.
Using that method, we can only assign probabilities of race to each test score, not certain race values, as each racial distribution overlaps with each other along the sides.
Huh? You are saying that we are failing students because they are inferior relative to other races. Yet, you are now saying that it isn't that clear.

So I ask again, if you can't just look at test results of a random group of people within individual races, what in the heck is the point of trying to see if some races may or may not be a little smarter than the others?
 
OP said:
, it excessively punishes students with shame if they don't succeed in school, it excessively punishes parents with guilt for failing to raise smart children
You are saying that we need to show this because it'll help explain why some races are dumber.
Race is important for explaining population differences, but it is not so important for individuals.
Which is why you randomly test 100, 1000 as a group.
Still don't quite follow. Are you suggesting that we will get different distributions of test scores if we randomly test 1000 people of each race?
Based on your pleading that black students are failing in school cause they are genetically less smart, yes. Your premise implies that a random selection within each race should give you breakdowns that will be easy to assess which race had which results.

Honestly, it seems such an easy test to prove a conclusion that I'm surprised it hasn't been done yet. People that think intelligence is racial must be black and not too smart.
Using that method, we can only assign probabilities of race to each test score, not certain race values, as each racial distribution overlaps with each other along the sides.
Huh? You are saying that we are failing students because they are inferior relative to other races. Yet, you are now saying that it isn't that clear.

So I ask again, if you can't just look at test results of a random group of people within individual races, what in the heck is the point of trying to see if some races may or may not be a little smarter than the others?
I will give you an example. One of the big downsides follows from the No Child Left Behind Act. Students of largely black or Latino schools in America tend to underperform on their tests compared to schools that are largely white, Jewish or Asian students, and the most probable explanation is genetic differences. However, blame for the underperformance is placed squarely on the teachers and schools. The underperforming school districts receive decreased funding, the teachers are fired or their pay reduced, and many more of them are motivated to cheat on the tests, because the underperformance of their students is otherwise largely out of their control. It does not follow that this argument requires that ALL black students perform poorer than ALL white students or anything like that. The differences in averages makes the required difference, even if there is overlap along the sides of each distribution.
 
I will give you an example. One of the big downsides follows from the No Child Left Behind Act. Students of largely black or Latino schools in America tend to underperform on their tests compared to schools that are largely white, Jewish or Asian students, and the most probable explanation is genetic differences.
That's so nice how you just concluded you are right in your hypothesis in the hypothesis. You notice how you didn't even establish any evidence for your conclusion? You know, you just said... heh... genetics.

That's bogus.
 
I will give you an example. One of the big downsides follows from the No Child Left Behind Act. Students of largely black or Latino schools in America tend to underperform on their tests compared to schools that are largely white, Jewish or Asian students, and the most probable explanation is genetic differences.
That's so nice how you just concluded you are right in your hypothesis in the hypothesis. You notice how you didn't even establish any evidence for your conclusion? You know, you just said... heh... genetics.

That's bogus.
OK, let's say it is not probably genetics. The standard objection to the No Child Left Begin Act among teachers is that the achievement gaps are due mainly to differences in SES, and only a small part is teacher performance. It would still be a very good point, and neither does that argument require that ALL whites perform better than ALL blacks. Since differences in IQ within groups really are mostly genetic (ignoring differences between the races), the genetic point would still be central, the prime reason student performance is very much mostly out of the control of teachers.

I discuss the evidence for the genetic hypothesis of race IQ gaps in other threads, less in this thread because it is more about cost/benefit analyses assuming hypotheticals. I will give you a brief rundown of the reasons why I favor the genetic hypothesis. It is because of many arguments in combination. If you would like more information on any one of the points, I may bump up an old thread or start a new one. The racial IQ gaps (genetic or not) are well established, IQ variations are mostly heritable within groups as we know from many twin studies, there are apparently genetic racial variations for genetic variations of anything within races, transracial adoption studies show high adult IQ correspondence with the biological mother and not much with the adopted mother, variations on racial average brain size tend to correspond to racial average IQ (brain size being likewise highly heritable within groups), the same hierarchy of intelligence exists in almost every significantly multiracial nation in the world, there is a high correspondence between average skin color and average IQ of populations as predicted by Rushton's theory, the competing explanation of environmental components to the racial IQ gap have come up short in detail concerning which environmental components are responsible despite the high probability that they would be identified if they existed, and intelligence researchers seemingly tend to agree with me so it is not just a lay opinion.
 
Um... Can we back up for a moment? Is everyone here in agreement that there is a genetic basis for race?
Certainly not everyone here, but I am in agreement with it, so long as "race" is understood to be the meaning used commonly in the science of biology ever since Darwin: populations varying in gene frequencies due to varying ancestral geography.
Ahahaha, no. You only agree with the definition of "race" if it matches folk categories created by racists a couple centuries ago to justify colonialism.
 
Certainly not everyone here, but I am in agreement with it, so long as "race" is understood to be the meaning used commonly in the science of biology ever since Darwin: populations varying in gene frequencies due to varying ancestral geography.
Ahahaha, no. You only agree with the definition of "race" if it matches folk categories created by racists a couple centuries ago to justify colonialism.
The folk categories used for whatever evil purpose would be correct most of the time, but the genetic tests would be the final authority. See the study by Tang et al titled "Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies," 2004. Genetic tests mismatched self-identification of race only 5 times out of 3000 samples. It is now established science. You can learn the race that your grandparents very likely knew you belonged to by paying a small fee to a mail-in testing service (such as 23andMe.com). The science of genetics has done what good-intentioned people predicted could not be done, and I think we had best face this reality.
 
Oh. So that is why they got that 4 racial sets of random people into a room, had them answer questions and then had people grade the tests and determine which group represented which race they were?
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the racial gaps in g-loaded tests may not really exist and it is all just bad science or something?

Of course its bad science. Its not science. Its correlational speculation, a homonym for pseudoscience, which is where we are. sheesh.
 
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the racial gaps in g-loaded tests may not really exist and it is all just bad science or something?

Of course its bad science. Its not science. Its correlational speculation, a homonym for pseudoscience, which is where we are. sheesh.
Are you saying that the correlations don't exist? Or are you saying that the correlations exist but they are irrelevant or meaningless or something like that?
 
Ahahaha, no. You only agree with the definition of "race" if it matches folk categories created by racists a couple centuries ago to justify colonialism.
The folk categories used for whatever evil purpose would be correct most of the time,
How? They change all the time, and even vary between places. The Spanish were white, then apparently stopped being white when they went to Mexico, at least in the Americans' opinion. The Nazis considered "Slavs" and "Aryans" to be different as night and day, but their descendants are all "Caucasian" in the US. Brazilians have a history of self-identification biased towards whiteness because of prejudice (and their concept of what qualifies a "white" is vastly different from a Pole's). Those are just the examples off the top of my head.
 
The folk categories used for whatever evil purpose would be correct most of the time,
How? They change all the time, and even vary between places. The Spanish were white, then apparently stopped being white when they went to Mexico, at least in the Americans' opinion. The Nazis considered "Slavs" and "Aryans" to be different as night and day, but their descendants are all "Caucasian" in the US. Brazilians have a history of self-identification biased towards whiteness because of prejudice (and their concept of what qualifies a "white" is vastly different from a Pole's). Those are just the examples off the top of my head.
You don't have to believe the folk categories. I won't ask you to. They are of only secondary importance to me. Latinos apparently started out as "white" and they became "not white" after admixture with native central Americans, but it is an arbitrary matter how much admixture it takes for a population to go from "white" to "non-white." Races are spectral and do not adapt to our discrete habits of language. I will repeat what I said. Please pay attention to all of it, not just one line of what I wrote.

The folk categories used for whatever evil purpose would be correct most of the time, but the genetic tests would be the final authority. See the study by Tang et al titled "Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies," 2004. Genetic tests mismatched self-identification of race only 5 times out of 3000 samples. It is now established science. You can learn the race that your grandparents very likely knew you belonged to by paying a small fee to a mail-in testing service (such as 23andMe.com). The science of genetics has done what good-intentioned people predicted could not be done, and I think we had best face this reality.
 
Of course its bad science. Its not science. Its correlational speculation, a homonym for pseudoscience, which is where we are. sheesh.
Are you saying that the correlations don't exist? Or are you saying that the correlations exist but they are irrelevant or meaningless or something like that?

Correlations cannot be used demonstrate causality. Ergo results of correlation 'studies' are scientifically meaningless. Example: Oh look. the rings of Saturn correlate with how high dogs jump.
 
Are you saying that the correlations don't exist? Or are you saying that the correlations exist but they are irrelevant or meaningless or something like that?

Correlations cannot be used demonstrate causality. Ergo results of correlation 'studies' are scientifically meaningless. Example: Oh look. the rings of Saturn correlate with how high dogs jump.
You say, "Correlations cannot be used [to] demonstrate causality," but it would be more accurate to say that "Correlations alone cannot be used to demonstrate causality." Correlations are an essential component for any case of causality. If you don't have at least one correlation as part of your case for causality, then you likely do not have a case for causality. Causality of some sort generally explains a correlation (unless it can be plausibly explained as purely random), and the difficulty is determining the direction of causality. If X correlates with Y, then maybe X causes Y, but maybe instead Y causes X, or maybe instead a third variable Z causes both X and Y. The best cases for causality involve plausibility and the testing of other proposed causal variables. It would never be a just a single correlation alone, but many correlations in combination.
 
Actually, I want you banned.

You are already on the ignore list except for those occasions when I remove you to enable reporting you for spam in contravention of the TOU. It frankly astounds me that you are so damned stubborn that you persist in posting this garbage.

Nothing Abe has said is remotely as anti-reason, harmful, or offensive as you advocating him being banned for saying it.

Indeed, and I for one find it admirable how he continues to argue his case with logic and reason in the face of such hostility. I enjoy reading him even where I disagree with him. Same goes for others here with other unpopular opinions they like to argue for. Isn't that the whole point of a "Freethought" forum?
 
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