Gaza "beach" -- what really happened

[Jayjay]

Hamas isn't completely evil in the same sense that the Nazi party wasn't evil... most Nazi party members and supporters probably had good intentions, and the party did a lot of good like provide jobs to people. And they got almost as much support in elections as Hamas.

Still, the end result for the Nazi victory was something that we might reasonably call "evil".

 

[Togo]

Hamas ran on an anti-corruption platform. They had some good economic policies, a strong law and order pledge coupled with reform of the police force, some good ideas about smoothing working with NGOs, and a strong emphasis on education (particularly secular education). They had a strong candidate list, including a great many people with advanced degrees from Western universities (more than the Israeli cabinet at the time). That's what people voted for. Much of it was delivered, particularly the law & order. The streets became noticeably safer.

Israel took note of all the new people they employed as teachers, nurses, civic policemen, and so on, and classified them as enemy combatants, because, you know, they work for Hamas. Many of the policeman were killed in the opening volley of Operation Cast Lead, when Israel launched a 3am missile strike to destroy all the police stations. The deaths were reported as enemy combatants.

 

[Jayjay]

Hamas ran on an anti-corruption platform. They had some good economic policies, a strong law and order pledge coupled with reform of the police force, some good ideas about smoothing working with NGOs, and a strong emphasis on education (particularly secular education). They had a strong candidate list, including a great many people with advanced degrees from Western universities (more than the Israeli cabinet at the time). That's what people voted for. Much of it was delivered, particularly the law & order. The streets became noticeably safer.

That sounds like something you'd have a source for? I seriously doubt that Gazans themselves are feeling safer, better eduated, or otherwise better off at any point after 2006 than they were before.

I don't think it's reasonable to say that Hamas delivered safer streets when one of the first things that happened after they took power was a civil war and purging of all Fatah supporters and demonstrations. The massive police force is to keep the people in line and suppress dissent, not law and order. Hamas has openly executed people without trial on the streets as warning for example.

 

[angelo]

Well, it's true the plan to give half of Palestine to recent arrivals from Europe upset the long-term residents, but they were already upset by things like the bombing campaign carried out by Irgun in the 1930s. The conflict started decades before the partition plan was drafted.

And the Jews were upset about the massacres the Muslims were carrying out. The Irgun was a reaction to such attacks.

But the Jews aren't supposed to defend themselves. They have to accept that they are just the scapegoats.

 

[Togo]

Hamas ran on an anti-corruption platform. They had some good economic policies, a strong law and order pledge coupled with reform of the police force, some good ideas about smoothing working with NGOs, and a strong emphasis on education (particularly secular education). They had a strong candidate list, including a great many people with advanced degrees from Western universities (more than the Israeli cabinet at the time). That's what people voted for. Much of it was delivered, particularly the law & order. The streets became noticeably safer.

That sounds like something you'd have a source for?

The Economist did a series of articles covering the elections and the immediate aftermath. Many other news sources at the time were broadly in agreement, in part because Hamas actively solicited foreign journalists to come and see for themselves. I suspect you'd have to pay to see them on-line, however.

Note that this doesn't mean that Hamas is a good thing overall. I'm merely suggesting that people voted for them more for local reasons, and less for geo-political ones.

I seriously doubt that Gazans themselves are feeling safer, better eduated, or otherwise better off at any point after 2006 than they were before.

At any point? Why? You have a conflicting source?

The massive police force is to keep the people in line and suppress dissent, not law and order.

Source? Or is this just a political opinion you are taking as true?

Hamas has openly executed people without trial on the streets as warning for example.

So has Israel.

 

[angelo]

1) The electorate was faced with two bad choices.

2) Hamas didn't show their true colors until after the election. They wouldn't be able to win now that they have--as evidenced by the fact there have been no elections since.

Your first point reflects your biases and is ultimately irrelevant as untermensche points out. The 2nd point rebuts your initial claim because Hamas was elected for its good works which is evidence that it is not evil. All in all, I see no rebuttal but kneejerk ideological bias masquerading as disinterested analysis.

Well I'll be fucked. A defender of an evil terrorist organization that subdues it's own citizens, throws gays from tall buildings, would given the chance make the Nazi genocide of Jews look mild by comparison, persecutes infidels, is an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood who are responsible for hundreds of thousands of people since their founding in 1928. Even the corrupt UN calls them a terrorist org. Yet here you are calling them a force of good.

Let's face it, any group of people claiming to be occupying land given to them by some god are not only insane but generally a big pain in the ass. This goes for the Jews in Israel and the Muslims in restricted areas surrounded by Israel.

To think that Judaism is not as repugnant as Christianity or Islam is to have several standards of judgement.

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[untermensche]

...Well I'll be fucked. A defender of an evil terrorist organization that subdues it's own citizens, throws gays from tall buildings, would given the chance make the Nazi genocide of Jews look mild by comparison, persecutes infidels, is an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood who are responsible for hundreds of thousands of people since their founding in 1928. Even the corrupt UN calls them a terrorist org. Yet here you are calling them a force of good...

It all depends how far one's vision extends.

This a minority and a temporary manifestation.

It is as if one claimed that all Americans were racists and lynched people because of the existence of the KKK.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas ran on an anti-corruption platform. They had some good economic policies, a strong law and order pledge coupled with reform of the police force, some good ideas about smoothing working with NGOs, and a strong emphasis on education (particularly secular education). They had a strong candidate list, including a great many people with advanced degrees from Western universities (more than the Israeli cabinet at the time). That's what people voted for. Much of it was delivered, particularly the law & order. The streets became noticeably safer.

Israel took note of all the new people they employed as teachers, nurses, civic policemen, and so on, and classified them as enemy combatants, because, you know, they work for Hamas. Many of the policeman were killed in the opening volley of Operation Cast Lead, when Israel launched a 3am missile strike to destroy all the police stations. The deaths were reported as enemy combatants.

You realize that the majority of the "police" that died in that strike were members of the terrorist brigades? They were just given civilian jobs as a cover.

As for working with NGOs--the reality is that they made the NGOs cover up for Hamas if they wanted to continue to work there. Remember all the weapons found stored in the UN schools? That's the reality of operating in Gaza under Hamas.

As for the rest of your "combatants", got some evidence??

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That sounds like something you'd have a source for?

The Economist did a series of articles covering the elections and the immediate aftermath. Many other news sources at the time were broadly in agreement, in part because Hamas actively solicited foreign journalists to come and see for themselves. I suspect you'd have to pay to see them on-line, however.

Note that this doesn't mean that Hamas is a good thing overall. I'm merely suggesting that people voted for them more for local reasons, and less for geo-political ones.

Yeah, Hamas had their good-guy hat on at the time of the election. Note that there haven't been any more elections since people got to see what Hamas really was about.

 

[untermensche]

Yeah, Hamas had their good-guy hat on at the time of the election. Note that there haven't been any more elections since people got to see what Hamas really was about.

That isn't why there haven't been elections.

The reasons are many and convoluted, but it is laughable to reduce it to that Hamas is bad, laughable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

...Well I'll be fucked. A defender of an evil terrorist organization that subdues it's own citizens, throws gays from tall buildings, would given the chance make the Nazi genocide of Jews look mild by comparison, persecutes infidels, is an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood who are responsible for hundreds of thousands of people since their founding in 1928. Even the corrupt UN calls them a terrorist org. Yet here you are calling them a force of good...

It all depends how far one's vision extends.

This a minority and a temporary manifestation.

It is as if one claimed that all Americans were racists and lynched people because of the existence of the KKK.

If the KKK were our government it would be a reasonable criticism.

 

[untermensche]

It all depends how far one's vision extends.

This a minority and a temporary manifestation.

It is as if one claimed that all Americans were racists and lynched people because of the existence of the KKK.

If the KKK were our government it would be a reasonable criticism.

If we lived under the boot of some foreign power they might be.

 

[angelo]

It all depends how far one's vision extends.

This a minority and a temporary manifestation.

It is as if one claimed that all Americans were racists and lynched people because of the existence of the KKK.

If the KKK were our government it would be a reasonable criticism.

The KKK only baited blacks. Hamas hates and slaughters all who disagree with it, including other Muslims who have a slightly different version of Islam. And it does so in public where its meant to set an example. The leadership also siphons off millions of American dollars in aid meant to go to Palestinians people.

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[Jayjay]

And the Jews were upset about the massacres the Muslims were carrying out. The Irgun was a reaction to such attacks.

But the Jews aren't supposed to defend themselves. They have to accept that they are just the scapegoats.

Committing massacres in retaliation is not defense in any reasonable meaning of the word.

 

[Jayjay]

Yeah, Hamas had their good-guy hat on at the time of the election. Note that there haven't been any more elections since people got to see what Hamas really was about.

That isn't why there haven't been elections.

The reasons are many and convoluted, but it is laughable to reduce it to that Hamas is bad, laughable.

It's ironic that at the same time you have no qualms forgetting said many and convoluted reasons and blame it all on Israel.

Sure, Hamas's intransigence is not the only reason why there haven't been elections, but it's definitely one of the main reasons. During the reconciliation efforts between Fatah and Hamas, Abbas proposed many times organizing new elections and Hamas categorically refused the idea. These calls have been silenced, presumably because Abbas's own term as president has long since expired.

 

[Jayjay]

That sounds like something you'd have a source for?

The Economist did a series of articles covering the elections and the immediate aftermath. Many other news sources at the time were broadly in agreement, in part because Hamas actively solicited foreign journalists to come and see for themselves. I suspect you'd have to pay to see them on-line, however.

The issue is not Hamas's promises, but whether it delivered. Reports near election and its aftermath is not relevant, it's reporting following Hamas taking power. And I' not denying that Hamas did indeed beef up the police force, by hiring its own thugs to keep the peace. But if you have some proof that the people actually welcomed this or that it made them feel safer, that'd be interesting to see.

I seriously doubt that Gazans themselves are feeling safer, better eduated, or otherwise better off at any point after 2006 than they were before.

At any point? Why? You have a conflicting source?

I have none, but the overall impression I get from Gaza is that it's a hellhole.

The massive police force is to keep the people in line and suppress dissent, not law and order.

Source? Or is this just a political opinion you are taking as true?

Hamas has openly executed people without trial on the streets as warning for example.

So has Israel.

It was a political opinion ... but it turns out that it's easy to find reports to support it.

As Dissent Grows in Gaza, Hamas Tightens Its Grip

What Hamas is really afraid of

Hamas's "police" has nothing to do with law and order, and everything to do with crushing dissent. There is no comparison to Israel... if Israel detains someone, the worst they might do is hold them without charge in administrative detention, but Israel has no death penalty and most of the accused do get a trial eventually.

 

[untermensche]

That isn't why there haven't been elections.

The reasons are many and convoluted, but it is laughable to reduce it to that Hamas is bad, laughable.

It's ironic that at the same time you have no qualms forgetting said many and convoluted reasons and blame it all on Israel.

Sure, Hamas's intransigence is not the only reason why there haven't been elections, but it's definitely one of the main reasons. During the reconciliation efforts between Fatah and Hamas, Abbas proposed many times organizing new elections and Hamas categorically refused the idea. These calls have been silenced, presumably because Abbas's own term as president has long since expired.

It is partly Israels fault and that is a crime, to interfere in the democratic process of another people.

What does Hamas get for participating? What is it's incentive?

Israel has said it will not allow Hamas to rule even if that is what the Palestinians want.

 

[angelo]

But the Jews aren't supposed to defend themselves. They have to accept that they are just the scapegoats.

Committing massacres in retaliation is not defense in any reasonable meaning of the word.

If the terrorist had better computer guided missiles, it would they committing a massacre of all Israelis, both Jews and Arab Israelis!!!

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[angelo]

That isn't why there haven't been elections.

The reasons are many and convoluted, but it is laughable to reduce it to that Hamas is bad, laughable.

It's ironic that at the same time you have no qualms forgetting said many and convoluted reasons and blame it all on Israel.

Sure, Hamas's intransigence is not the only reason why there haven't been elections, but it's definitely one of the main reasons. During the reconciliation efforts between Fatah and Hamas, Abbas proposed many times organizing new elections and Hamas categorically refused the idea. These calls have been silenced, presumably because Abbas's own term as president has long since expired.

Elections in Gaza as well as the West Bank are a joke. The only place in the middle East that has democratic elections are in Israel where Israeli Arabs are free to vote.

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[Loren Pechtel]

It's ironic that at the same time you have no qualms forgetting said many and convoluted reasons and blame it all on Israel.

Sure, Hamas's intransigence is not the only reason why there haven't been elections, but it's definitely one of the main reasons. During the reconciliation efforts between Fatah and Hamas, Abbas proposed many times organizing new elections and Hamas categorically refused the idea. These calls have been silenced, presumably because Abbas's own term as president has long since expired.

It is partly Israels fault and that is a crime, to interfere in the democratic process of another people.

What does Hamas get for participating? What is it's incentive?

Israel has said it will not allow Hamas to rule even if that is what the Palestinians want.

Hamas *IS* ruling. They just know they wouldn't win another election so they aren't having another election.

Remember, also, that they only won a majority of seats--they actually took power in a coup after that.

 

[angelo]

After gaining power, the first thing Hamas did was to silence any opposition by ruthlessly eliminating them. Like all totalitarian states the only thing that would shift them is a coup, very unlikely in Gaza. These people took the vision of the Nazis and apply it to their ruthless so called governments.
Remember that the Grand mufti of Jerusalem and godfather of Palestinian nationalism Haj Amin al-Hussain, was a protege of the Brotherhood and also an admirer of Hitler.
He went to Berlin during the second World War to meet with Hitler and to recruit Arabs to the nazi cause.

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