The REAL minimum wage

[dismal]

What are these other obligations these $2 per hour workers are juggling that make working a minimum wage job so challenging?

family, food, shelter.

Stuff like that.

Well, we all have some or all of those. This does not seem a particularly good explanation as to why some small subset of people are willing to take $2/hr jobs and are unable to land a job at the full $7.25 rate for other minimum wage jobs.

 

[KeepTalking]

Since some people seem to have missed this the first time around, I feel compelled to point it out once again.

To be fair, if the employee's tips, combined with this wage do not equal at least the MW, then the employer must make up the difference.

In other words, no tipped employees in the USA are working for just $2.19/hr, they all make at least the federal MW.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What are these other obligations these $2 per hour workers are juggling that make working a minimum wage job so challenging?

family, food, shelter.

Stuff like that.

Well, we all have some or all of those. This does not seem a particularly good explanation as to why some small subset of people are willing to take $2/hr jobs and are unable to land a job at the full $7.25 rate for other minimum wage jobs.

people take the jobs they can get, and those jobs can tell you everything about a person, or nothing about a person. A violinist with metropolitan orceshtra can be making good this month and waiting tables next month because funding for the symphony was cut and the season brought to an abrupt end. But a person still has to eat. But you know this. Otherwise, if working for shitty wages was simply a choice made completely freely of situation or circumstance, why wouldn't CEOs just on a whim decide to bus tables at the local K&W?

- - - Updated - - -

Since some people seem to have missed this the first time around, I feel compelled to point it out once again.

To be fair, if the employee's tips, combined with this wage do not equal at least the MW, then the employer must make up the difference.

In other words, no tipped employees in the USA are working for just $2.19/hr, they all make at least the federal MW.

how well is that enforced?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

http://rocunited.org/2011-behind-the-kitchen-door-multi-site-study/

On February 14th, 2011, in conjunction with three local ROC affiliates, ROC-United released Behind the Kitchen Door: A Multi-site Study of the Restaurant Industry, an overview of conditions in the restaurant industry nationwide through studies in eight regions throughout the country. The research included more than 4000 surveys, 240 employer interviews, 240 worker interviews, and government data analysis. The findings illustrated the great need for reform that can achieve a sustainable industry in which workers, employers, and diners can prosper together.

Findings
● The average yearly income for restaurant workers nationwide in 2009 was $15,092, compared to $45,155 for the total private sector. Each locality reported between 9% and 22% of workers earning a livable wage.
● 87.7% of workers nationwide do not have paid sick days.
● Almost half of restaurant workers (46.3%) have experienced overtime violations.
● Racial discrimination is widespread in the restaurant industry. 28% of workers that have been passed over for a promotion reported that it was based on race. This discrimination is reflected in workers’ wages, as the median wage for white workers is $13.25 compared to $9.54 for workers of color.
● 34.6% of workers reported having to do things under time pressure that may have harmed the health and safety of the consumer.
- See more at: http://rocunited.org/2011-behind-the-kitchen-door-multi-site-study/#sthash.WTlRlNZz.dpuf

 

[dismal]

What are these other obligations these $2 per hour workers are juggling that make working a minimum wage job so challenging?

family, food, shelter.

Stuff like that.

Well, we all have some or all of those. This does not seem a particularly good explanation as to why some small subset of people are willing to take $2/hr jobs and are unable to land a job at the full $7.25 rate for other minimum wage jobs.

people take the jobs they can get, and those jobs can tell you everything about a person, or nothing about a person. A violinist with metropolitan orceshtra can be making good this month and waiting tables next month because funding for the symphony was cut and the season brought to an abrupt end. But a person still has to eat. But you know this. Otherwise, if working for shitty wages was simply a choice made completely freely of situation or circumstance, why wouldn't CEOs just on a whim decide to bus tables at the local K&W?

So I still don't understand. Why can't these people get full minimum wage ($7.25/hr) jobs?

Are they not skilled enough?

Are there not enough of these jobs out there for everyone?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What are these other obligations these $2 per hour workers are juggling that make working a minimum wage job so challenging?

family, food, shelter.

Stuff like that.

Well, we all have some or all of those. This does not seem a particularly good explanation as to why some small subset of people are willing to take $2/hr jobs and are unable to land a job at the full $7.25 rate for other minimum wage jobs.

people take the jobs they can get, and those jobs can tell you everything about a person, or nothing about a person. A violinist with metropolitan orceshtra can be making good this month and waiting tables next month because funding for the symphony was cut and the season brought to an abrupt end. But a person still has to eat. But you know this. Otherwise, if working for shitty wages was simply a choice made completely freely of situation or circumstance, why wouldn't CEOs just on a whim decide to bus tables at the local K&W?

So I still don't understand. Why can't these people get full minimum wage ($7.25/hr) jobs?

Are they not skilled enough?

Are there not enough of these jobs out there for everyone?

I think your last question is probably the one that gets to the problem. Take the violinist. He's not untrained, or stupid, but due to situation and circumstance, he is now in a occupation for which he is not trained but because he, I don't know, knows the restaurant owner, for example, he has a job.

I have to ask

Have you never been unemployed, under employed, misemployed, never been broke, never had to take a job to get by until your regular job started up again, anything like that?

 

[KeepTalking]

Since some people seem to have missed this the first time around, I feel compelled to point it out once again.

To be fair, if the employee's tips, combined with this wage do not equal at least the MW, then the employer must make up the difference.

In other words, no tipped employees in the USA are working for just $2.19/hr, they all make at least the federal MW.

how well is that enforced?

One can only assume that, as a part of the Fair Labor Standards Act, it is enforced as well as any other federally mandated wage/labor law.

 

[dismal]

I think your last question is probably the one that gets to the problem. Take the violinist. He's not untrained, or stupid, but due to situation and circumstance, he is now in a occupation for which he is not trained but because he, I don't know, knows the restaurant owner, for example, he has a job.

I have to ask

Have you never been unemployed, under employed, misemployed, never been broke, never had to take a job to get by until your regular job started up again, anything like that?

I am perhaps not the person to be talking about in this discussion as I have invested considerable time and effort developing skills and achievements that employers value.

My kids, on the other hand, have recently spent some time in the market for minimum wage jobs. Just the other day I was having a conversation with my daughter who had just finished school about getting a job for the summer. I suggested a few places, and she took the (in light of this thread) odd position that she wanted to go work at a place where she could make tips. So I can assure you from first hand experience there are people who want these $2.19 per hour jobs more than the $7.25 per hour jobs.

But perhaps I have failed as a parent in some way?

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

Since some people seem to have missed this the first time around, I feel compelled to point it out once again.

To be fair, if the employee's tips, combined with this wage do not equal at least the MW, then the employer must make up the difference.

In other words, no tipped employees in the USA are working for just $2.19/hr, they all make at least the federal MW.

Do you know if that's also true by state? If a state's minimum wage is higher than federal but the tipped min wage is lower, which difference is the employer required to pay?

aa

 

[KeepTalking]

Since some people seem to have missed this the first time around, I feel compelled to point it out once again.

To be fair, if the employee's tips, combined with this wage do not equal at least the MW, then the employer must make up the difference.

In other words, no tipped employees in the USA are working for just $2.19/hr, they all make at least the federal MW.

Do you know if that's also true by state? If a state's minimum wage is higher than federal but the tipped min wage is lower, which difference is the employer required to pay?

aa

For the Fair Labor Standards Act, they must make up the difference up to the Federal MW.

Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington require tipped workers to be payed the State MW before including tips. There are 25 States that require the difference to be made up to the State MW, which is higher than the Federal MW. The rest of the States simply comply with the FLSA mandate to make up the difference up to the Federal MW.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

I think your last question is probably the one that gets to the problem. Take the violinist. He's not untrained, or stupid, but due to situation and circumstance, he is now in a occupation for which he is not trained but because he, I don't know, knows the restaurant owner, for example, he has a job.

I have to ask

Have you never been unemployed, under employed, misemployed, never been broke, never had to take a job to get by until your regular job started up again, anything like that?

I am perhaps not the person to be talking about in this discussion as I have invested considerable time and effort developing skills and achievements that employers value.

My kids, on the other hand, have recently spent some time in the market for minimum wage jobs. Just the other day I was having a conversation with my daughter who had just finished school about getting a job for the summer. I suggested a few places, and she took the (in light of this thread) odd position that she wanted to go work at a place where she could make tips. So I can assure you from first hand experience there are people who want these $2.19 per hour jobs more than the $7.25 per hour jobs.

But perhaps I have failed as a parent in some way?

Presumably your point is that the federally required tipped minimum wage is irrelevant since there is at least some evidence that the market wage for these positions is well above this wage - and even higher than the federal non-tipped minimum wage since there is a not insignificant population (including your daughter) who prefer tipped positions to straight minimum wage positions.


Logically, it stands to reason that everyone should prefer tipped positions. As KeepTalking points out, even the tipped position is going to earn at least the minimum wage anyway. However, only the tipped position has the opportunity to earn more than the minimum wage (among earners whose primary employment option is minimum wage work). So I would consider it a parenting success that your daughter prefers this type of work over other options for a new graduate summer job.

aa

 

[Celldweller]

Keep the 2.13 MW but make tips a non-taxable income?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I think your last question is probably the one that gets to the problem. Take the violinist. He's not untrained, or stupid, but due to situation and circumstance, he is now in a occupation for which he is not trained but because he, I don't know, knows the restaurant owner, for example, he has a job.

I have to ask

Have you never been unemployed, under employed, misemployed, never been broke, never had to take a job to get by until your regular job started up again, anything like that?

I am perhaps not the person to be talking about in this discussion as I have invested considerable time and effort developing skills and achievements that employers value.

My kids, on the other hand, have recently spent some time in the market for minimum wage jobs. Just the other day I was having a conversation with my daughter who had just finished school about getting a job for the summer. I suggested a few places, and she took the (in light of this thread) odd position that she wanted to go work at a place where she could make tips. So I can assure you from first hand experience there are people who want these $2.19 per hour jobs more than the $7.25 per hour jobs.

But perhaps I have failed as a parent in some way?

no one wants a $2.19 job. She is looking for a job PLUS tips. And if said job doesn't yield the tips she feels she's worth or if she finds management stealing her tips, she won't want that that job long. Ask her this, would she like a job @ $2.19 plus tips or one @$7.29 plus tips.

(and congratulations on your charmed life to have never ever in life had a job that wasn't for you.)

 

[AthenaAwakened]

This seems to bear repeating.

http://rocunited.org/2011-behind-the-kitchen-door-multi-site-study/

On February 14th, 2011, in conjunction with three local ROC affiliates, ROC-United released Behind the Kitchen Door: A Multi-site Study of the Restaurant Industry, an overview of conditions in the restaurant industry nationwide through studies in eight regions throughout the country. The research included more than 4000 surveys, 240 employer interviews, 240 worker interviews, and government data analysis. The findings illustrated the great need for reform that can achieve a sustainable industry in which workers, employers, and diners can prosper together.

Findings
● The average yearly income for restaurant workers nationwide in 2009 was $15,092, compared to $45,155 for the total private sector. Each locality reported between 9% and 22% of workers earning a livable wage.
● 87.7% of workers nationwide do not have paid sick days.
● Almost half of restaurant workers (46.3%) have experienced overtime violations.
● Racial discrimination is widespread in the restaurant industry. 28% of workers that have been passed over for a promotion reported that it was based on race. This discrimination is reflected in workers’ wages, as the median wage for white workers is $13.25 compared to $9.54 for workers of color.
● 34.6% of workers reported having to do things under time pressure that may have harmed the health and safety of the consumer.
- See more at: http://rocunited.org/2011-behind-the-kitchen-door-multi-site-study/#sthash.WTlRlNZz.dpuf

 

[Loren Pechtel]

http://rocunited.org/2011-behind-the-kitchen-door-multi-site-study/

Certainly looks like a union front group.

Findings
● The average yearly income for restaurant workers nationwide in 2009 was $15,092, compared to $45,155 for the total private sector. Each locality reported between 9% and 22% of workers earning a livable wage.

1) They shouldn't be comparing restaurant workers to the private sector, but to the unskilled labor sector.

2) A lot of such people are doing it part time while in school. This will also pull down their income.

Thus this is a misleading figure.

● 87.7% of workers nationwide do not have paid sick days.

Hourly employees rarely do.

● Almost half of restaurant workers (46.3%) have experienced overtime violations.

Which isn't a reason to raise the minimum wage.

● Racial discrimination is widespread in the restaurant industry. 28% of workers that have been passed over for a promotion reported that it was based on race. This discrimination is reflected in workers’ wages, as the median wage for white workers is $13.25 compared to $9.54 for workers of color.

1) A lot more people *THINK* they were discriminated against than really were.

2) As always you see a different outcome as evidence of discrimination without considering if there are other factors involved. One obvious one comes to mind: People tend to work close to home. There are few fancy places in black communities.

● 34.6% of workers reported having to do things under time pressure that may have harmed the health and safety of the consumer.

Again, a working conditions issue, not a wage issue. I hardly think they're alone in this, managers tend to have a get-it-done attitude, whether it can be done safely gets short shift.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think your last question is probably the one that gets to the problem. Take the violinist. He's not untrained, or stupid, but due to situation and circumstance, he is now in a occupation for which he is not trained but because he, I don't know, knows the restaurant owner, for example, he has a job.

I have to ask

Have you never been unemployed, under employed, misemployed, never been broke, never had to take a job to get by until your regular job started up again, anything like that?

I am perhaps not the person to be talking about in this discussion as I have invested considerable time and effort developing skills and achievements that employers value.

My kids, on the other hand, have recently spent some time in the market for minimum wage jobs. Just the other day I was having a conversation with my daughter who had just finished school about getting a job for the summer. I suggested a few places, and she took the (in light of this thread) odd position that she wanted to go work at a place where she could make tips. So I can assure you from first hand experience there are people who want these $2.19 per hour jobs more than the $7.25 per hour jobs.

But perhaps I have failed as a parent in some way?

no one wants a $2.19 job. She is looking for a job PLUS tips. And if said job doesn't yield the tips she feels she's worth or if she finds management stealing her tips, she won't want that that job long. Ask her this, would she like a job @ $2.19 plus tips or one @$7.29 plus tips.

(and congratulations on your charmed life to have never ever in life had a job that wasn't for you.)

The point is she realizes that $2.19 + tips is better than MW.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I think your last question is probably the one that gets to the problem. Take the violinist. He's not untrained, or stupid, but due to situation and circumstance, he is now in a occupation for which he is not trained but because he, I don't know, knows the restaurant owner, for example, he has a job.

I have to ask

Have you never been unemployed, under employed, misemployed, never been broke, never had to take a job to get by until your regular job started up again, anything like that?

I am perhaps not the person to be talking about in this discussion as I have invested considerable time and effort developing skills and achievements that employers value.

My kids, on the other hand, have recently spent some time in the market for minimum wage jobs. Just the other day I was having a conversation with my daughter who had just finished school about getting a job for the summer. I suggested a few places, and she took the (in light of this thread) odd position that she wanted to go work at a place where she could make tips. So I can assure you from first hand experience there are people who want these $2.19 per hour jobs more than the $7.25 per hour jobs.

But perhaps I have failed as a parent in some way?

no one wants a $2.19 job. She is looking for a job PLUS tips. And if said job doesn't yield the tips she feels she's worth or if she finds management stealing her tips, she won't want that that job long. Ask her this, would she like a job @ $2.19 plus tips or one @$7.29 plus tips.

(and congratulations on your charmed life to have never ever in life had a job that wasn't for you.)

The point is she realizes that $2.19 + tips is better than MW.

only if you make good tips.

and what about the clerk at the shoe store, should he work for tips too?

 

[Celldweller]

IMO, no, he isn't providing a MW service that I couldn't do myself. And fitting me for shoes is certainly something I don't require additional service for.

Bars, restaurants, valet, a few examples where we go to have something done FOR us (by MW workers) that I choose not to do for myself. Otherwise, I'd jump behind the bar and make my own drink, fire up the fryer and make my own onion rings. Rather, I want to be served (politely and timely) in addition to having someone else do those tasks.

Deeper into the "service" trade are landscapers, house painters, house cleaners, etc. Are they tip worthy? I believe at times they are, though not always expected by society.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

IMO, no, he isn't providing a MW service that I couldn't do myself. And fitting me for shoes is certainly something I don't require additional service for.

nothing you tip for is a service that you could not do for yourself.

Bars, restaurants, valet, a few examples where we go to have something done FOR us (by MW workers) that I choose not to do for myself. Otherwise, I'd jump behind the bar and make my own drink, fire up the fryer and make my own onion rings. Rather, I want to be served (politely and timely) in addition to having someone else do those tasks.

and people choose to be fitted for shoes. What's your point?

Deeper into the "service" trade are landscapers, house painters, house cleaners, etc. Are they tip worthy? I believe at times they are, though not always expected by society.

house painters and lanscapers would surely appreciate an envelope with a little something extra, I'm sure, but neither a painter or a landscaper is going to provide her services for tips or a fee that needs a tip to bring that fee up to a living wage. People want to earn money, not depend on the kindness of strangers.

 

[DBT]

Minimum wage should be no less than $20 per hour for any form of productive work.